Discovery of life outside earth and religion.

[Guest]

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Borman recalled the abuse he and his shipmates endured at Cornell, instigated by the fatuous prof. Sagan.

is that all you got pal to make such outlandish claims that "he got away with bullshit"
I could understand that Frank Borman might have felt with his experience@Cornell. People can disagree with other people. Sometimes your favourite theories have to be discarded simly because they are wrong.
There is no other community that is put through stringint of tests than scientific community. I'm yet to hear a group of scientists, Engineers, and astrobiologists, modern philosophers who have summed up all the work of Sagan as bullshit or got away with Bullshit.
In case you are not clear, science is not theory, theory, bullshit, theory, bullshit.....
it does not work that way.
Science is facts, facts, facts and more facts. Yes sometimes those facts are corrected upon and refined with more observation since we improve the understanding with better aids such as technology, theories and instrumentation.

You completely missed my point. Please read Borman's book, then come talk to me about Sagan.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[zuluguy 0]

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Interesting, so when science fails you put your faith in an intellectual construct and trust it to provide for your salvation.

you almost sound like you want religious faith to take credit for the questions science can not answer. You gotta work hard to answer the difficult questions, that is what science is all about instead faith is an easy and flawed alternative.

[billvon 3,116]

>science explains a lot of the phenomena that has mystified our species
>for millennia.

Agreed.

>But as far as our most important asset, consciousness, science has no
>explanation.

Science has perfectly good explanations for the basics of what we consider self-awareness - perception of ourselves as separate from others, a sense of self-preservation, our ability to be introspective, our capacity for empathy, compassion and love, our ability to plan things in the future. Those are amenable to scientific research.

Science does not concern itself with the issues of what you consider your eternal soul, or your spirit, or your particular view of the world. Those aren't scientific issues, they are philosophical ones.

>Whether we see an eternal consciousness as the source of the universe or
>the inanimate universe as the source of consciousness, faith is required in
>an intellectual/spiritual construct.

No, it's not - no more than you can demand the Bible explain how a 747 works before you consider Christianity valid.

>If the salvation preached by atheists is true, then there will be nothing.

Agreed - or more accurately nothing we can perceive.

>We are saved from being responsible for our actions.

?? No one is saved from being responsible for their actions. If an atheist believes his awareness will end at his death, then he is responsible for his actions for every bit of time he can perceive.

>If on the other hand consciousness is not emergent but eternal, we my
>need to assume responsibility for how we used the gift of consciousness
>we were given. And if eternal consciousness has a value system, we will
>need a saviour.

Well, several religions consider deathbed conversions after a life of sin, or martyrdom, to be sufficient to grant one admission to heaven/paradise. Given that, your claim that religious adherents have more "responsibility for their actions" seems pretty absurd; indeed, it seems like the opposite is true. Do whatever you want, as long as you repent in the last, say, 30 seconds of your life (or die violently as a martyr.)

[maadmax 0]

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Salvation from what???

From what comes next, after death. If spiritual energy is a reality, it may be eternal like physical matter and energy. Our actions in this life may receive their accumulated wrath or blessing.

[kallend 2,148]

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Salvation from what???

From what comes next, after death. If spiritual energy is a reality, it may be eternal like physical matter and energy. Our actions in this life may receive their accumulated wrath or blessing.

There is, of course ZERO evidence to support that conjecture despite millennia of searching for it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[maadmax 0]

Well, several religions consider deathbed conversions after a life of sin, or martyrdom, to be sufficient to grant one admission to heaven/paradise. Given that, your claim that religious adherents have more "responsibility for their actions" seems pretty absurd; indeed, it seems like the opposite is true. Do whatever you want, as long as you repent in the last, say, 30 seconds of your life (or die violently as a martyr.)

[maadmax 0]

There is, of course ZERO evidence to support that conjecture despite millennia of searching for it.

[billvon 3,116]

>My claim is that nobody escapes responsibility for their actions.

OK. Then you say:

>And maybe a life of good deeds is not as important as union with God
>even if only for an instant.

Sounds like people CAN escape responsibility for lifelong actions as long as they do something for an instant. It's the religious "escape clause" that atheists do not have; they are indeed held responsible for their actions.

[GaVak 0]

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There is, of course ZERO evidence to support that conjecture despite millennia of searching for it.

And as I am sure we both know, what appears to be zero evidence to one may not be equal to nonexistence.

[Shotgun 1]

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It's the religious "escape clause" that atheists do not have; they are indeed held responsible for their actions.

Yep. I find that consequences generally hold me responsible for my actions.

And since I can't know what will happen after death (I suspect I will just decay and consciousness will be gone), I find it better to concern myself with the consequences I will experience while I am alive.

[RonD1120 62]

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And since I can't know what will happen after death (I suspect I will just decay and consciousness will be gone), I find it better to concern myself with the consequences I will experience while I am alive.

What if consciousness continues for eternity?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Shotgun 1]

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And since I can't know what will happen after death (I suspect I will just decay and consciousness will be gone), I find it better to concern myself with the consequences I will experience while I am alive.

What if consciousness continues for eternity?

Then I'll find out what happens then.

[quade 4]

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What if consciousness continues for eternity?

And how would that work? We already know for a fact that if parts of the brain are destroyed memories and personality traits can vanish in an instant. By what conceivable mechanism could a consciousness survive the destruction of the brain through death let alone continue for eternity?

Lemme ask you this. If on earth the mind of an alzheimer's sufferer is destroyed, then what happens to that person when they die? Do they get their mind back? If so, from where do they get it?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,116]

>What if consciousness continues for eternity?

Then better live the best life you can in this world, eh?

[beowulf 1]

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Salvation from what???

From what comes next, after death. If spiritual energy is a reality, it may be eternal like physical matter and energy. Our actions in this life may receive their accumulated wrath or blessing.

Seeing how there is not one shred of evidence to support this, it seems pretty silly to think this is remotely true.

[beowulf 1]

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And since I can't know what will happen after death (I suspect I will just decay and consciousness will be gone), I find it better to concern myself with the consequences I will experience while I am alive.

What if consciousness continues for eternity?

What if unicorns exist?

[maadmax 0]

--Sounds like people CAN escape responsibility for lifelong actions as long as they do something for an instant. It's the religious "escape clause" that atheists do not have; they are indeed held responsible for their actions.

[kallend 2,148]

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--Sounds like people CAN escape responsibility for lifelong actions as long as they do something for an instant. It's the religious "escape clause" that atheists do not have; they are indeed held responsible for their actions.

Yes we can escape the consequences of our evil actions. It is called grace, it is a gift from God. The work of Christ freed us from what we deserve. If we refuse the gift then we stand on our own.

[maadmax 0]

--Lemme ask you this. If on earth the mind of an alzheimer's sufferer is destroyed, then what happens to that person when they die? Do they get their mind back? If so, from where do they get it?

[maadmax 0]

Seeing how there is not one shred of evidence to support this, it seems pretty silly to think this is remotely true.

[billvon 3,116]

>Yes we can escape the consequences of our evil actions. It is called
>grace, it is a gift from God.

OK. So atheists accept responsibility for their actions; the religious types are saved from responsibility for their actions. (Which of course is exactly the opposite of what you said a few posts back.)

[beowulf 1]

I think you're mistaken. That person motivated themselves by belief in a mythology.
It's all imagined.
You obviously have a very loose definition of what is believable evidence.

[maadmax 0]

OK. So atheists accept responsibility for their actions; the religious types are saved from responsibility for their actions. (Which of course is exactly the opposite of what you said a few posts back.)

[beowulf 1]

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OK. So atheists accept responsibility for their actions; the religious types are saved from responsibility for their actions. (Which of course is exactly the opposite of what you said a few posts back.)

I doubt we will agree on what I am saying. It is just that we are responsible for the consequences of our action, either good or bad . God has provided a way for the consequences created by our evil deeds,to be absorbed by someone else, namely Christ. Left unchallenged the energy of evil grows by feeding on itself and is very destructive, both in this life and the one to come.

[Shotgun 1]

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It is just that we are responsible for the consequences of our action, either good or bad . God has provided a way for the consequences created by our evil deeds,to be absorbed by someone else, namely Christ.

Will Christ keep you out of jail if you kill someone? Keep people from losing trust in you when you lie to them? Keep your spouse from leaving you when you cheat on her? Keep your body from deteriorating when you abuse it with drugs?

Interestingly, most of the consequences that happen while we're alive are things that encourage us to generally be good people. And I would hope that if a god did exist, that it would be more concerned with us being good people than with us accepting it as our savior.