Discovery of life outside earth and religion.

[wmw999 2,588]

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Mankind made progress because they looked beyond the scriptures and tried to understand the true book of nature.

On the other hand, an external moral framework appears to be necessary for a decent number of people to do "the right thing." The Bible provides one such moral framework, and if that means that some people don't kill because the Bible (or another religious book or tradition, or a law) says so, that's probably a good thing.

Humans are pretty complicated, and tend not to behave predictably in the individual. Some of them listen to laws, some to religion, some to their parents, some to logic, and some only listen to what's right in front of them that they want. Hari Seldon can confirm that in the mass they can be be pretty depressingly predictable, though .

So there are no one-size-fits-all answers, no matter how logical or right one's own perspective is.

Unless, of course, they all just listened to me

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Shotgun 1]

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Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind. Therefore the best available alternative to explain code in DNA is a designer. His challenge is "show me a code that occurs naturally" to topple his conclusion.

As far as we know, DNA is a "code" that was not designed by a conscious mind. His opinion may be that a supernatural designer is the best explanation, but he presents no real evidence to support this claim. And since he is the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on him.

I do like that he incorporates the idea of evolution into his creationist beliefs. I don't see any reason why the two should be mutually exclusive. The evidence for evolution is pretty strong, and perhaps it goes against certain religious beliefs, but it is not evidence of the non-existence of a god.

[maadmax 0]

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>tell me how self consciousness arises form inorganic and organic
>chemistry.

By having it be advantageous (survival-wise) to do so.

>What combination of hadrons and leptons will ever produce love?

A similar combination that produces hope, or compassion, or despair.

>On the contrary we are uniquely special.

?? Unique in what way? Many animals exhibit love, compassion, despair, devotion and joy. We're certainly not unique in that respect - although we have developed a far better way of discussing those feelings than any other animal has.

You must know that conclusion is pure conjecture on your part. You are making the few fact we know about consciousness fit your preconceived ideas about reality. Why does self awareness have to be limited to neurological tissue? It is just as reasonable to assume other physical media or energy could support consciousness. And with our recent understanding of entanglement, an omnipresent God is not so far fetched.


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[maadmax 0]

As far as we know, DNA is a "code" that was not designed by a conscious mind. His opinion may be that a supernatural designer is the best explanation, but he presents no real evidence to support this claim. And since he is the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on him.

I do like that he incorporates the idea of evolution into his creationist beliefs. I don't see any reason why the two should be mutually exclusive. The evidence for evolution is pretty strong, and perhaps it goes against certain religious beliefs, but it is not evidence of the non-existence of a god.

[Coreece 190]

Ya Bv...those answers suck and you know it.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Shotgun 1]

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Just out of curiosity what is the name of the natural force or process you are referring to that can make something out of nothing?

???

Where did I refer to anything that could make something out of nothing?

[champu 1]

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Evolution is just an observation. Entropy, on the other hand, is a known physical law that dictates the organization of matter and energy.

The second law of thermodynamics states entropy increases until equilibrium is reached for any isolated system. Life is not an isolated system but rather one that sinks entropy into its surroundings.

It's why you get hungry even if you just sit around all day.

[quade 4]

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Just out of curiosity what is the name of the natural force or process you are referring to that can make something out of nothing?

How do I make rock candy?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,118]

>You must know that conclusion is pure conjecture on your part.

No, animals have demonstrated compassion, joy, despair, devotion etc in demonstrable and repeatable ways. No conjecture required.

>Why does self awareness have to be limited to neurological tissue? It is
>just as reasonable to assume other physical media or energy could
>support consciousness.

Of course. When did I say it couldn't?

>And with our recent understanding of entanglement, an omnipresent God
>is not so far fetched.

Perhaps - but it also makes the concept of a god who's just like us (i.e. gets mad, experiences jealousy, looks human) less likely.

[maadmax 0]

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Just out of curiosity what is the name of the natural force or process you are referring to that can make something out of nothing?
???

Where did I refer to anything that could make something out of nothing?

The belief that DNA, life , and everything else , "just happened."

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[maadmax 0]

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Just out of curiosity what is the name of the natural force or process you are referring to that can make something out of nothing?

How do I make rock candy?

Stick it in the freezer.

[billvon 3,118]

>The belief that DNA, life , and everything else , "just happened."

Yep. Most things "just happen" without intelligent intervention. Orbital mechanics, weather (for the most part) and earthquakes come to mind. Doesn't mean there was no cause, of course - just that no one person did it.

[maadmax 0]

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>The belief that DNA, life , and everything else , "just happened."

Yep. Most things "just happen" without intelligent intervention. Orbital mechanics, weather (for the most part) and earthquakes come to mind. Doesn't mean there was no cause, of course - just that no one person did it.

No argument there. Unless you go back to the beginning. How did the laws of nature become so precisely established? Why is there something instead of nothing?

[Shotgun 1]

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Just out of curiosity what is the name of the natural force or process you are referring to that can make something out of nothing?
???

Where did I refer to anything that could make something out of nothing?

The belief that DNA, life , and everything else , "just happened."

[maadmax 0]

That's not the same as making something out of nothing.

[christelsabine 1]

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....
How did the laws of nature become so precisely established? Why is there something instead of nothing?

Nothing was *precisely established* in the beginning. Every little step in nature lead to next one. It just grew.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[billvon 3,118]

>Why is there something instead of nothing?

Kind of a tautology there. Why was there a rock in your back yard when you dug a hole for a plant? Who put it there? Was it a supernatural event - or was it just always there, the result of basic physical processes that you just didn't see?

[Shotgun 1]

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That's not the same as making something out of nothing.

14 Billion years ago nothing in our universe existed.
Something had to have happened to get us here where we find ourselves now.

[pilotsR4pimps 0]

Read Planetary Messenger..... I believe we are all here by CHANCE. There are estimated hundreds of billions stars in our galaxy alone, and an estimated hundreds of billions to TRILLIONs of galaxies in the universe, which by the way we can only observe 4% (based on the theories of how big the universe), all those galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars w/ planets possibly. It is all chance. If we are here by chance then the existence of life is a mathematical probability, and given the fact that most religions state humans as the apex of creation, I personally think it would all fall apart. Here is a cool breakdown:

For arguments sake, lets imagine that primitive life happens once in the lifetime of a trillion galaxies, and out of those only one in a trillion ever evolves out of its womb planet into a space-faring civilization. In this example then we are still left with an astounding 10 to the par 75 advanced societies - more alien cultures than the number of atoms composing planet Earth! Again, for some perspective on such a gargantuan number, there are more advanced civilizations partying it up around the galaxies than there are atoms in every single grain of sand on all the beaches and deserts in the world, and then some.

[maadmax 0]

Nothing was *precisely established* in the beginning. Every little step in nature lead to next one. It just grew.

[silent_pumpkin 0]

There was the Big Bang - that's pretty far off the spectrum from 'nothing' as it can get. That formed our planetary ball and initiated lively events to occur. Faith is believing in something whether or not you have proof or can deny outlasting 'evidence.'

[Guest]

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To this day, that still annoys me, along with a lot of other bullshit he got away with in his lifetime.

really don't mean to highjack this thread but would be very curious on what is the otherstuff you think he got away with. I particularly think "bullshit" is too strong a word to the amazing work he has done,
calling his views eccentric/far fetched is one thing but you my friend can not call his work bullshit, someone who is acclaimed by millions

can you produce any theories or publish scientific papers to refute his work as bullshit that are referenced/accepted by many astronomers, c

You can read US astronaut Frank Borman's autobiography, titled "Countdown". In it, Borman recalled the abuse he and his shipmates endured at Cornell, instigated by the fatuous prof. Sagan.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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>Yes he is saying that no one has ever discovered a code (ie an agreed
>convention) that was not designed by a conscious mind.

Nature has plenty of codes. Pulsars (rapidly rotating neutron stars) send out coded radio messages. Some are more invariant and accurate than an atomic clock; some have regular time and frequency modulations. However, the argument "such coded messages can only come from a conscious mind" holds no water.

Sunflower seed spirals perfectly reproduce the Fibonacci Sequence. The Giant's Causeway contains millions of perfect hexagons in sequence. Neither of those were created by intelligent intervention; rather they are the result of natural processes we now understand.

DNA is similar. We can watch it change and we understand the mechanisms that drive that change. It's not a perfect process; since it was created naturally, rather than designed, there are huge chunks of junk DNA, the process doesn't work for very long (telomere erosion) and there are a great many duplicates and redundant pairs.

Hey Bill, don't forget that hexagonal pattern in Saturn's polar region. Wow!

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[RonD1120 62]

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The expression is based on Scriptures indicating that God/Jesus chooses us first. For example:

John 15:19
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Salvation is for all but not all will choose to be saved. Our Father knows who His children are before we know Who our Father is.

I have had several life changing or enhancing experiences with the Lord. If your divine appointment manifests you will know. The phenomena is beyond human description.

I admire your courage to repose all your faith in a book that is not even a first hand account of the events that transpired 2000 years ago. No one to validate, a book that has clearly put earth at the center and humans all too important. Not trying to change people. All I'm saying is look beyond and be open to reason.
Mankind made progress because they looked beyond the scriptures and tried to understand the true book of nature.
Imagine if we got stuck with the scriptures would we have progressed as a mankind, the resounding answer is NO

Scripture or the Holy Bible is best understood as a wonderful love letter explaining the relationship of God to His children. You are seeing it as something else.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,118]

>Then that unnamed undiscovered force must be one of the strongest in
>the universe.

What "unnamed undiscovered" force?

> It would have to be powerful enough to create all the laws of physics . . .

Or they already existed.

>direct a pinpoint singularity to produce an amorphous plasma soup . . .

Well, nothing was "directed", any more than gravity "directs" you to fall when you get out of an airplane. It proceeded according to the laws of physics, yes.