Iraq War Vet: "We Were Told to Just Shoot People, and the Officers Would Take Care of Us"

[rhys 0]

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Iraq War Vet: "We Were Told to Just Shoot People, and the Officers Would Take Care of Us"

Wednesday 07 April 2010


On Monday, April 5, Wikileaks.org posted video footage from Iraq, taken from a US military Apache helicopter in July 2007 as soldiers aboard it killed 12 people and wounded two children. The dead included two employees of the Reuters news agency: photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen and driver Saeed Chmagh.

The US military confirmed the authenticity of the video.

The footage clearly shows an unprovoked slaughter, and is shocking to watch whilst listening to the casual conversation of the soldiers in the background.

As disturbing as the video is, this type of behavior by US soldiers in Iraq is not uncommon.

Truthout has spoken with several soldiers who shared equally horrific stories of the slaughtering of innocent Iraqis by US occupation forces.

"I remember one woman walking by," said Jason Washburn, a corporal in the US Marines who served three tours in Iraq. He told the audience at the Winter Soldier hearings that took place March 13-16, 2008, in Silver Spring, Maryland, "She was carrying a huge bag, and she looked like she was heading toward us, so we lit her up with the Mark 19, which is an automatic grenade launcher, and when the dust settled, we realized that the bag was full of groceries. She had been trying to bring us food and we blew her to pieces."

The hearings provided a platform for veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan to share the reality of their occupation experiences with the media in the US.

Washburn testified on a panel that discussed the rules of engagement (ROE) in Iraq, and how lax they were, to the point of being virtually nonexistent.

"During the course of my three tours, the rules of engagement changed a lot," Washburn's testimony continued, "The higher the threat the more viciously we were permitted and expected to respond. Something else we were encouraged to do, almost with a wink and nudge, was to carry 'drop weapons', or by my third tour, 'drop shovels'. We would carry these weapons or shovels with us because if we accidentally shot a civilian, we could just toss the weapon on the body, and make them look like an insurgent."

Hart Viges, a member of the 82nd Airborne Division of the Army who served one year in Iraq, told of taking orders over the radio.

"One time they said to fire on all taxicabs because the enemy was using them for transportation.... One of the snipers replied back, 'Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxicabs?' The lieutenant colonel responded, 'You heard me, trooper, fire on all taxicabs.' After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment."

Vincent Emanuele, a Marine rifleman who spent a year in the al-Qaim area of Iraq near the Syrian border, told of emptying magazines of bullets into the city without identifying targets, running over corpses with Humvees and stopping to take "trophy" photos of bodies.

"An act that took place quite often in Iraq was taking pot shots at cars that drove by," he said, "This was not an isolated incident, and it took place for most of our eight-month deployment."

Kelly Dougherty - then executive director of Iraq Veterans Against the War - blamed the behavior of soldiers in Iraq on policies of the US government.

"The abuses committed in the occupations, far from being the result of a 'few bad apples' misbehaving, are the result of our government's Middle East policy, which is crafted in the highest spheres of US power," she said.

Michael Leduc, a corporal in the Marines who was part of the US attack on Fallujah in November 2004, said orders he received from his battalion JAG officer before entering the city were as follows: "You see an individual with a white flag and he does anything but approach you slowly and obey commands, assume it's a trick and kill him."

Bryan Casler, a corporal in the Marines, spoke of witnessing the prevalent dehumanizing outlook soldiers took toward Iraqis during the invasion of Iraq.

"... on these convoys, I saw Marines defecate into MRE bags or urinate in bottles and throw them at children on the side of the road," he stated.

Scott Ewing, who served in Iraq from 2005-2006, admitted on one panel that units intentionally gave candy to Iraqi children for reasons other than "winning hearts and minds.

"There was also another motive," Ewing said. "If the kids were around our vehicles, the bad guys wouldn't attack. We used the kids as human shields."

In response to the WikiLeaks video, the Pentagon, while not officially commenting on the video, announced that two Pentagon investigations cleared the air crew of any wrongdoing.

A statement from the two probes said the air crew had acted appropriately and followed the ROE.

Adam Kokesh served in Fallujah beginning in February 2004 for roughly one year.

Speaking on a panel at the aforementioned hearings about the ROE, he held up the ROE card soldiers are issued in Iraq and said, "This card says, 'Nothing on this card prevents you from using deadly force to defend yourself'."

Kokesh pointed out that "reasonable certainty" was the condition for using deadly force under the ROE, and this led to rampant civilian deaths. He discussed taking part in the April 2004 siege of Fallujah. During that attack, doctors at Fallujah General Hospital told Truthout there were 736 deaths, over 60 percent of which were civilians.

"We changed the ROE more often than we changed our underwear," Kokesh said, "At one point, we imposed a curfew on the city, and were told to fire at anything that moved in the dark."

Kokesh also testified that during two cease-fires in the midst of the siege, the military decided to let out as many women and children from the embattled city as possible, but this did not include most men.

"For males, they had to be under 14 years of age," he said, "So I had to go over there and turn men back, who had just been separated from their women and children. We thought we were being gracious."

Steve Casey served in Iraq for over a year starting in mid-2003.

"We were scheduled to go home in April 2004, but due to rising violence we stayed in with Operation Blackjack," Casey said, "I watched soldiers firing into the radiators and windows of oncoming vehicles. Those who didn't turn around were unfortunately neutralized one way or another - well over 20 times I personally witnessed this. There was a lot of collateral damage."

Jason Hurd served in central Baghdad from November 2004 until November 2005. He told of how, after his unit took "stray rounds" from a nearby firefight, a machine gunner responded by firing over 200 rounds into a nearby building.

"We fired indiscriminately at this building," he said. "Things like that happened every day in Iraq. We reacted out of fear for our lives, and we reacted with total destruction."

Hurd said the situation deteriorated rapidly while he was in Iraq. "Over time, as the absurdity of war set in, individuals from my unit indiscriminately opened fire at vehicles driving down the wrong side of the road. People in my unit would later brag about it. I remember thinking how appalled I was that we were laughing at this, but that was the reality."

Other soldiers Truthout has interviewed have often laughed when asked about their ROE in Iraq.

Garret Reppenhagen served in Iraq from February 2004-2005 in the city of Baquba, 40 kilometers (about 25 miles) northeast of Baghdad. He said his first experience in Iraq was being on a patrol that killed two Iraqi farmers as they worked in their field at night.

"I was told they were out in the fields farming because their pumps only operated with electricity, which meant they had to go out in the dark when there was electricity," he explained, "I asked the sergeant, if he knew this, why did he fire on the men. He told me because the men were out after curfew. I was never given another ROE during my time in Iraq."

Emmanuel added: "We took fire while trying to blow up a bridge. Many of the attackers were part of the general population. This led to our squad shooting at everything and anything in order to push through the town. I remember myself emptying magazines into the town, never identifying a target."

Emmanuel spoke of abusing prisoners he knew were innocent, adding, "We took it upon ourselves to harass them, and took them to the desert to throw them out of our Humvees, while kicking and punching them when we threw them out."

Jason Wayne Lemue is a Marine who served three tours in Iraq.

"My commander told me, 'Kill those who need to be killed, and save those who need to be saved'; that was our mission on our first tour," he said of his first deployment during the invasion.

"After that the ROE changed, and carrying a shovel, or standing on a rooftop talking on a cell phone, or being out after curfew [meant those people] were to be killed. I can't tell you how many people died because of this. By my third tour, we were told to just shoot people, and the officers would take care of us."

When this Truthout reporter was in Baghdad in November 2004, my Iraqi interpreter was in the Abu Hanifa mosque that was raided by US and Iraqi soldiers during Friday prayers.

"Everyone was there for Friday prayers, when five Humvees and several trucks carrying [US soldiers and] Iraqi National Guards entered," Abu Talat told Truthout on the phone from within the mosque while the raid was in progress. "Everyone starting yelling 'Allahu Akbar' (God is the greatest) because they were frightened. Then the soldiers started shooting the people praying!"

"They have just shot and killed at least four of the people praying," he said in a panicked voice, "At least 10 other people are wounded now. We are on our bellies and in a very bad situation."

Iraqi Red Crescent later confirmed to Truthout that at least four people were killed, and nine wounded. Truthout later witnessed pieces of brain splattered on one of the walls inside the mosque while large blood stains covered carpets at several places.

This type of indiscriminate killing has been typical from the initial invasion of Iraq.

Truthout spoke with Iraq war veteran and former National Guard and Army Reserve member Jason Moon, who was there for the invasion.

"While on our initial convoy into Iraq in early June 2003, we were given a direct order that if any children or civilians got in front of the vehicles in our convoy, we were not to stop, we were not to slow down, we were to keep driving. In the event an insurgent attacked us from behind human shields, we were supposed to count. If there were thirty or less civilians we were allowed to fire into the area. If there were over thirty, we were supposed to take fire and send it up the chain of command. These were the rules of engagement. I don't know about you, but if you are getting shot at from a crowd of people, how fast are you going to count, and how accurately?"

Moon brought back a video that shows his sergeant declaring, "The difference between an insurgent and an Iraqi civilian is whether they are dead or alive."

Moon explains the thinking: "If you kill a civilian he becomes an insurgent because you retroactively make that person a threat."

According to the Pentagon probes of the killings shown in the WikiLeaks video, the air crew had "reason to believe" the people seen in the video were fighters before opening fire.

Article 48 of the Geneva Conventions speaks to the "basic rule" regarding the protection of civilians:

"In order to ensure respect for and protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives."

What is happening in Iraq seems to reflect what psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton calls "atrocity-producing situations." He used this term first in his book "The Nazi Doctors." In 2004, he wrote an article for The Nation, applying his insights to the Iraq War and occupation.

"Atrocity-producing situations," Lifton wrote, occur when a power structure sets up an environment where "ordinary people, men or women no better or worse than you or I, can regularly commit atrocities.... This kind of atrocity-producing situation ... surely occurs to some degrees in all wars, including World War II, our last 'good war.' But a counterinsurgency war in a hostile setting, especially when driven by profound ideological distortions, is particularly prone to sustained atrocity - all the more so when it becomes an occupation."

Cliff Hicks served in Iraq from October 2003 to August 2004.

"There was a tall apartment complex, the only spot from where people could see over our perimeter," Hicks told Truthout, "There would be laundry hanging off the balconies, and people hanging out on the roof for fresh air. The place was full of kids and families. On rare occasions, a fighter would get atop the building and shoot at our passing vehicles. They never really hit anybody. We just knew to be careful when we were over by that part of the wall, and nobody did shit about it until one day a lieutenant colonel was driving down and they shot at his vehicle and he got scared. So he jumped through a bunch of hoops and cut through some red tape and got a C-130 to come out the next night and all but leveled the place. Earlier that evening when I was returning from a patrol the apartment had been packed full of people."

I suppose because they are truthers, they are not worth listening to?

Source

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tkhayes 348]

reason number 673 to end the war....

[mnealtx 0]

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I suppose because they are truthers, they are not worth listening to?

No, they're not worth listening to due to people like Jesse MacBeth, Scott Beauchamp, Micah Wright and Jim Massey. Like the 9/11 truthers, they've been caught out in too many lies to be taken at anything approaching face value.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rhys 0]

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No, they're not worth listening to due to people like Jesse MacBeth, Scott Beauchamp, Micah Wright and Jim Massey. Like the 9/11 truthers, they've been caught out in too many lies to be taken at anything approaching face value.

So you believe these incidents are probably made up and that every thing is all hunky dory over there?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

No, they're not worth listening to due to people like Jesse MacBeth, Scott Beauchamp, Micah Wright and Jim Massey. Like the 9/11 truthers, they've been caught out in too many lies to be taken at anything approaching face value.

So you believe these incidents are probably made up and that every thing is all hunky dory over there?

I know it's difficult you to believe, what with your vast military experience and all, but there's no way in hell that the CO is going to say "just go kill people and we'll cover you".

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[redlegphi 0]

I'll begin this statement by saying that I wasn't in favor of the Iraq invasion to begin with and largely disagreed with how the Bush Administration fought the Iraq War up until the "Surge" (and I think a lot of the success of the Surge had to do with luck and timing). I say this to preempt any accusations of my being a neo-con warmonger. You should still feel free to make such accusations, but I think you'll probably look silly doing so.
That said, I'm currently on my second deployment to Iraq (the first being in 03-04) with a deployment to Afghanistan in between and I've never seen anything like what is being described by these Soldiers and Marines. This isn't to say it doesn't happen. I'm sure it does. But I think it's incorrect to ascribe those things happening to the President, DoD, or the services. Every unit I've been in has clearly briefed the ROE to me and none of them encouraged me to go out and randomly shoot people, take pot shots at passing cars, or show wanton disregard for human life. Quite the opposite in fact. So I think the problems that these Soldiers/Marines saw were due more to poor leadership in their units combined with sociopathic behavior on the part of the Soldiers/Marines carrying out those actions.

[rhys 0]

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I'll begin this statement by saying that I wasn't in favor of the Iraq invasion to begin with and largely disagreed with how the Bush Administration fought the Iraq War up until the "Surge" (and I think a lot of the success of the Surge had to do with luck and timing). I say this to preempt any accusations of my being a neo-con warmonger. You should still feel free to make such accusations, but I think you'll probably look silly doing so.
That said, I'm currently on my second deployment to Iraq (the first being in 03-04) with a deployment to Afghanistan in between and I've never seen anything like what is being described by these Soldiers and Marines. This isn't to say it doesn't happen. I'm sure it does. But I think it's incorrect to ascribe those things happening to the President, DoD, or the services. Every unit I've been in has clearly briefed the ROE to me and none of them encouraged me to go out and randomly shoot people, take pot shots at passing cars, or show wanton disregard for human life. Quite the opposite in fact. So I think the problems that these Soldiers/Marines saw were due more to poor leadership in their units combined with sociopathic behavior on the part of the Soldiers/Marines carrying out those actions.

I am not going to call you a warmonger or disrespect you at all, respect is a two way street and your reply was respectful.

I especially like the fact that you are honest and acknowledged that bad activity happens and that bad eggs exist in the military.

I do not believe all those that are deployed act like this that would be unrealistic, and I am not delusional if I believe that this sort of activity does exist.

There are plenty of people in here that will simply deny that any of this sort of activity happens, these people are the ones that discredit the military because they assist in allowing such activity to continue.

It is impossible to eliminate bad people entirely, especially in a institution as massive as the united states military, that is common sence. it is important however to acknowledge these bad incidents and expose them so they may never be repeated un-noticed.

Can you possibly share any experiences you have had, heard or observed where people have not followed the rules of engagement, or where there rules of engagement were what you felt inapropriate?

If you honestly havn't had 'any' of these experiences, I would be suprised, but I don't think it is impossible.

I am not here to flame you or anyone, in fact I am the one that is usually under attack and I have been known to bite back from time to time, but I have a respect for your honesty and wish to have at least some sort of intellegent conversation.

I am genuinely interested in what happens over there and I don't believe enough people are.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Skyrad 0]

The forces of all countries are a microcoism of the society they are drawn from so there will always be arseholes and psyco's as wel as humanitarian people and heroic individuals. I also think Redlegphi'spost was a good honest answer.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[airdvr 210]

Rhys, you want to paint with a broad stroke. You're more prejudiced and close minded than you think. You want so bad to believe that the US is evil. Not really certain why that is but is so plainly obvious that what you post is tainted.

I feel sorry for you...really.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Guest]

The Strategy Page once more, with the usual breath of fresh air:

What Was Not Said
April 11, 2010: A web site (read: LiveLeak - mh) recently featured an American AH-64 helicopter gunship video that showed a two man Reuters camera crew, operating with Iraqi terrorists. The Iraqi gunmen and the journalists were killed, and the web site accused the Americans of murdering the journalists. To make the point, the web site operators added markers on the video to make their case. Their assertion was that all those killed were innocent civilians. At one point, a van rolled up to try and retrieve a wounded gunman, and was itself shot up. There were children in the van, although they survived. But this was not the whole story, as the web site ignored a lot of other stuff that was going on.

First, some of the men in the video were clearly carrying weapons. Moreover, terrorists were often accompanied by a camera crew, so that the attack on American or Iraqi forces could be photographed, for use in propaganda videos (to attract recruits, and other support.) The web site also did not mention the fact that there was a firefight (between terrorists and U.S. troops) going on a hundred meters away from the armed Iraqi civilians being observed by the AH-64.

The mass media generally went along with the "it was murder" line, while more knowledgeable journalists and military personnel pointed out the fact that this was a legitimate combat operation, and that the journalists (who were not in the employ of the terrorists) were being very foolish to accompany armed terrorists on a combat mission.

Such combat videos have been quite common on the Internet over the last seven years. The AH-64 helicopter gunships, and AC-130 gunships always record their operations, and often have to receive permission from a headquarters, or commanders on the ground, before they attack. This is to avoid killing civilians, or friendly troops. Normally, armed men out and about at night are assumed to be up to no good. They are usually attacked by the 30mm autocannon carried by the AH-64 (the AC-130 carries 20mm and 40mm autocannon). The AH-64 also carries Hellfire missiles, which are also used for these night attacks on gunmen, or anyone caught trying to set up a roadside bomb.

It's an expensive form of warfare. Each 30mm round costs over $100. Each Hellfire missile costs over $70,000. But the highly accurate cannon fire from the AH-64 30mm autocannon is very popular. This is partly because of the increased emphasis on reducing civilian casualties.

The 127 pound M230 30mm cannon fires about ten rounds a second, and AH-64s normally carry 1,200 rounds. The most common round used is the HEDP (high explosive dual purpose), meaning that the round not only penetrates up to 50mm of armor, but generates fragments that kill or wound personnel within four meters (12 feet) of detonation. Each round carries .76 ounces of explosives, is 7.8 inches (20 cm) long and weighs 11.8 ounces (339 grams), while the projectile weighs half a pound (229 grams). A direct hit on a person is fatal, and messy.

Effective range of the 30mm cannon is about 4,000 meters. Time in flight to 3,000 meters is 12 seconds. The fire control system takes care of all the necessary aiming adjustments for long range shots. The Apache also has a red-dot laser indicator for the 30mm cannon. This reduces friendly fire incidents. When in doubt, the AH-64 gunner can flip on the red-dot and ask the guys down below if the right target is about to be hit. The red-dot also has an intimidating effect on the enemy, if you are trying to induce them to surrender. When there is no one on the ground, once permission to fire is given, the targets are rarely missed.

Currently, all Apaches are being equipped with communications gear that will allow the real-time exchange of video, and other sensor data. Not just with other Apaches, but with air force warplanes and ground troops. But the sensors are all about finding targets for the highly accurate, and lethal, 30mm cannon.

***********************

In other words, mess with the bull, get the horns. LiveLeak claims to have "decrypted" the video, but it was probably never encrypted in the first place.

All emphasis mine.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[skycop 0]

Please Mark,
Don't confuse people with facts and reason, war is ugly, i think we all agree on that.
As I've said, the fact we use ROE's is telling enough, along with the expense and employment of precision guided weapons and systems.
But to some we are still just cold blooded murderers, I don't think anyone or any set of facts is going to change the minds of some.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Skyrad 0]

The site didn't hide any of that. It was clear that at least two of the men with the journos were carrying longs. It is also clear on the soundtrack that there was US ground troops in close proximity. I personally have diveded views on the contact. The first part seemed legit but the second didn't. I'd like to see a proper investigation of the incident, if there is nothing to hide then there is no problem now is there?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Guest]

Quote

Please Mark,
Don't confuse people with facts and reason, war is ugly, i think we all agree on that.
As I've said, the fact we use ROE's is telling enough, along with the expense and employment of precision guided weapons and systems.
But to some we are still just cold blooded murderers, I don't think anyone or any set of facts is going to change the minds of some.

When Navy SEALs get court-martialied just for punching a prisoner in the stomach, it's pretty hard to believe these so-called "truth tellers", but then, the world is full of gullible people who believe anything they see. They're the ones the LiveLeak agenda-driven distortion campaign is targeted at.

Critical thinking isn't taught anymore, it seems.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Skyrad 0]

LOL... oh the irony

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Quote

Quote

Please Mark,
Don't confuse people with facts and reason, war is ugly, i think we all agree on that.
As I've said, the fact we use ROE's is telling enough, along with the expense and employment of precision guided weapons and systems.
But to some we are still just cold blooded murderers, I don't think anyone or any set of facts is going to change the minds of some.

When Navy SEALs get court-martialied just for punching a prisoner in the stomach, it's pretty hard to believe these so-called "truth tellers", but then, the world is full of gullible people who believe anything they see. They're the ones the LiveLeak agenda-driven distortion campaign is targeted at.

Critical thinking isn't taught anymore, it seems.

mh
.

You have to understand that some people are so hateful that they just look for any excuse to perpetuate their hate. Orgs like Liveleak and Wikileak take advantage of that by feed the fools appetite for hate-inspiring stories and somepeople take it all as fact regardless of the underlying truth.
Hell, most of the fools would believe Mickey Mouse is Satan if one these orgs told them so.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[timmyfitz 0]

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If you honestly havn't had 'any' of these experiences, I would be suprised

You would only be surprised because it didn't fit with your preconceived beliefs.

[akarunway 1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/world/asia/13afghan.html?hp USA is making many friends ,eh? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/world/asia/13afghan.html?hp

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Amazon 7]

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No, they're not worth listening to due to people like Jesse MacBeth, Scott Beauchamp, Micah Wright and Jim Massey. Like the 9/11 truthers, they've been caught out in too many lies to be taken at anything approaching face value.

So you believe these incidents are probably made up and that every thing is all hunky dory over there?

DUUUDE

When are you going to give some equal time to railing against all the kind acts posted on all the islamic websites of beheadings of westerners... postings of videos of bombings in markets... etc???

Oh thats right you dont hate them like you do America.

[Skyrad 0]

Islamist not Islamic, there is a difference.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Amazon 7]

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Islamist not Islamic, there is a difference.

Well since I dont read Arabic YET.... I would say they tend to use those sites to rally people to a jihad that is CERTAINLY islamic.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Quote

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No, they're not worth listening to due to people like Jesse MacBeth, Scott Beauchamp, Micah Wright and Jim Massey. Like the 9/11 truthers, they've been caught out in too many lies to be taken at anything approaching face value.

So you believe these incidents are probably made up and that every thing is all hunky dory over there?

DUUUDE

When are you going to give some equal time to railing against all the kind acts posted on all the islamic websites of beheadings of westerners... postings of videos of bombings in markets... etc???

Oh thats right you dont hate them like you do America.

OMG that's funny!
Rhys won't acknowledge anything that goes against his preachings. Hell, he won't even acknowledge that gravity had a part in the WTC towers ending up in a pile of rubble. According to him, it was all done with explosives and super-thermite (planted by rabbits, as you pointed out).

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[redlegphi 0]

Quote

Quote

I'll begin this statement by saying that I wasn't in favor of the Iraq invasion to begin with and largely disagreed with how the Bush Administration fought the Iraq War up until the "Surge" (and I think a lot of the success of the Surge had to do with luck and timing). I say this to preempt any accusations of my being a neo-con warmonger. You should still feel free to make such accusations, but I think you'll probably look silly doing so.
That said, I'm currently on my second deployment to Iraq (the first being in 03-04) with a deployment to Afghanistan in between and I've never seen anything like what is being described by these Soldiers and Marines. This isn't to say it doesn't happen. I'm sure it does. But I think it's incorrect to ascribe those things happening to the President, DoD, or the services. Every unit I've been in has clearly briefed the ROE to me and none of them encouraged me to go out and randomly shoot people, take pot shots at passing cars, or show wanton disregard for human life. Quite the opposite in fact. So I think the problems that these Soldiers/Marines saw were due more to poor leadership in their units combined with sociopathic behavior on the part of the Soldiers/Marines carrying out those actions.

I am not going to call you a warmonger or disrespect you at all, respect is a two way street and your reply was respectful.

I especially like the fact that you are honest and acknowledged that bad activity happens and that bad eggs exist in the military.

I do not believe all those that are deployed act like this that would be unrealistic, and I am not delusional if I believe that this sort of activity does exist.

There are plenty of people in here that will simply deny that any of this sort of activity happens, these people are the ones that discredit the military because they assist in allowing such activity to continue.

It is impossible to eliminate bad people entirely, especially in a institution as massive as the united states military, that is common sence. it is important however to acknowledge these bad incidents and expose them so they may never be repeated un-noticed.

Can you possibly share any experiences you have had, heard or observed where people have not followed the rules of engagement, or where there rules of engagement were what you felt inapropriate?

If you honestly havn't had 'any' of these experiences, I would be suprised, but I don't think it is impossible.

I am not here to flame you or anyone, in fact I am the one that is usually under attack and I have been known to bite back from time to time, but I have a respect for your honesty and wish to have at least some sort of intellegent conversation.

I am genuinely interested in what happens over there and I don't believe enough people are.

We don't really discuss what our ROE is. It would be a pretty good advantage if the insurgents knew when we could and couldn't shoot them. That said, I've only seen the guys I've worked with operate well within the ROE. Have I heard of people operating outside of the (current) ROE and doing things similar to what is described in your article? Yes, but those stories are all second-hand at best and are all either from the initial invasion or from the Surge, when the rules were different due to the more dangerous operating environment.
As I think everybody on both sides can acknowledge, and as has already been said in this thread, there are going to be ass holes and good guys in any organization, and it's going to be difficult to tell them apart most of the time. When you give both of those groups guns and plop them down into a war zone, sometimes bad stuff is going to happen. It's why we should avoid war unless it's necessary. And I can state as a fact that we're trying to reduce the number of civilian casualties we inflict during operations here and in Afghanistan, because it's both the right thing to do and because it hurts our chances of mission success if we're killing the wrong people. Unfortunately, nobody is perfect 100% of the time and the insurgents in both countries have excellent propaganda wings.

[rhys 0]

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OMG that's funny! Laugh
Rhys won't acknowledge anything that goes against his preachings. Hell, he won't even acknowledge that gravity had a part in the WTC towers ending up in a pile of rubble. According to him, it was all done with explosives and super-thermite (planted by rabbits, as you pointed out).

The bring the other argument into the conversation trick,

If your enginerring skills allow you to believe it is quite normal for a steel structure to fall through itself at freefall acceleration, that is up to you. If you want to discuss it go to that thread, you are flogging a dead horse unless you back up your 'hit piece' posts with some evidence or inforamtion rather than attcking me, my beleifs are not my own and i suggest you learn to keep to a subject.

You needn't bother replying to this post unless it pertains to the conduct of the forces on either side of the current wars. I realise these two subjects are directly linked to each other, due to 9/11 being the said catylist of these wars or rather the escallation of them, but if the link between 9/11 and the wars is what you want to discuss, I'm sure you'll find a plethora of other threads to bump up and converse with.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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We don't really discuss what our ROE is. It would be a pretty good advantage if the insurgents knew when we could and couldn't shoot them.

Understood.

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That said, I've only seen the guys I've worked with operate well within the ROE. Have I heard of people operating outside of the (current) ROE and doing things similar to what is described in your article? Yes, but those stories are all second-hand at best and are all either from the initial invasion or from the Surge, when the rules were different due to the more dangerous operating environment.
As I think everybody on both sides can acknowledge, and as has already been said in this thread, there are going to be ass holes and good guys in any organization, and it's going to be difficult to tell them apart most of the time. When you give both of those groups guns and plop them down into a war zone, sometimes bad stuff is going to happen. It's why we should avoid war unless it's necessary.

Agreed entirely.

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And I can state as a fact that we're trying to reduce the number of civilian casualties we inflict during operations here and in Afghanistan, because it's both the right thing to do and because it hurts our chances of mission success if we're killing the wrong people. Unfortunately, nobody is perfect 100% of the time and the insurgents in both countries have excellent propaganda wings.

I Know you probably can't talk about it, and appreciate if you cannot reply but it is not really clear what mission success is supposed to be, when the entity you are fighting against is Seemingly endless?

The 'enemy' stretches further than the Taliban and Al Qaeda does it not?

Once again I commend you on your respectful approach to discussing this subject, if only more people could learn to express themselves as well as you do.

take care.

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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DUUUDE

When are you going to give some equal time to railing against all the kind acts posted on all the islamic websites of beheadings of westerners... postings of videos of bombings in markets... etc???

Oh thats right you dont hate them like you do America.

I don't hate America; North America is a beautiful continent as well as every continent on earth.

The USA was build on good principals and possess great laws to protect it people ( it people simply do not demand accountability, when they have the right to). America is not the problem, it is corruption that is the problem and corruption has found it way to the upper echelon of not only the USA but most of the countries of the world.

Yes there are extremist wankers that do all sorts of crazy shit to people in the name of some sort of belief or cult. These people exist in all realms of the world not just in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The USA is leading a war that is supposed to be fighting for less terror and terrorism. The USA is there to lead by example, so you cannot compare the USA to these random extremist groups.

The USA is a country and it is backed by its people. You must ask yourself how much of these bombings and extremist attacks would have happened if America had not have invaded they way they did, or if they had simply gone and got the job done covertly rather than announcing to the world that all the bad guys better get ready and go hide in the hills because we're coming to get you..... In a month or so!

Then the bad guys go and hide and the civilians get caught in the crossfire.
There is always more than one way to accomplish something and invasion is not the answer the terrorism problem, it is the cause of it (a high percentage of the time).

I don't condone any violence by any person upon any other. I have never, ever supported any sort of violent behaviour or infringement of basic human rights; please do not insinuate that I do so. You are just lying to yourself and everyone else when you say such things.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix