mnealtx 0 #1 April 9, 2010 Waiting on the Governor's signature now - good for Arizona! Link QuoteAriz. House approves concealed weapons bill By JONATHAN J. COOPER (AP) – 9 hours ago PHOENIX — The Arizona House voted Thursday to make the state the third in the nation to allow people to carry concealed weapons without a permit, sending the governor a bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. The legislation, approved by the House 36-19 without discussion, would make it legal for most U.S. citizens 21 or older to carry a concealed weapon in Arizona without the permit now required. Currently, carrying a hidden firearm without a permit is a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $2,500. Sen. Russell Pearce, a Mesa Republican who sponsored the measure, said last week that he added changes requested by Gov. Jan Brewer's office, an indication that she is likely to sign it. The governor can sign or veto the measure, or allow it to become law without action. If the legislation is enacted, Arizona would join Alaska and Vermont in not requiring permits to carry concealed weapons. Forty-five other states require permits for hidden guns, and two states — Illinois and Wisconsin — prohibit them altogether.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #2 April 9, 2010 QuoteWaiting on the Governor's signature now - good for Arizona! Link QuoteAriz. House approves concealed weapons bill By JONATHAN J. COOPER (AP) – 9 hours ago PHOENIX — The Arizona House voted Thursday to make the state the third in the nation to allow people to carry concealed weapons without a permit, sending the governor a bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. The legislation, approved by the House 36-19 without discussion, would make it legal for most U.S. citizens 21 or older to carry a concealed weapon in Arizona without the permit now required. Currently, carrying a hidden firearm without a permit is a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail and a fine of up to $2,500. Sen. Russell Pearce, a Mesa Republican who sponsored the measure, said last week that he added changes requested by Gov. Jan Brewer's office, an indication that she is likely to sign it. The governor can sign or veto the measure, or allow it to become law without action. If the legislation is enacted, Arizona would join Alaska and Vermont in not requiring permits to carry concealed weapons. Forty-five other states require permits for hidden guns, and two states — Illinois and Wisconsin — prohibit them altogether. The Iowa chambers passed a law this spring that forces sherifs to issue conceal permits if the person passes a now consistant set of requirements Before all 99 county sherifs had the power to pick and chose I do not yet know if Culver signed it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #3 April 9, 2010 Cool, now I can carry a gun while I skydive . I have never CCW'd here, altho it's an easy class, I hear they teach you basically it's a bad idea to carry one. Unless you have all the facts/witnesses on your side, if someone gets shot and you were the only one who brought a gun to the party, you kinda hold the bag. The home is quite different, but out on the streets, I'd be careful. I used to carry a gun under my seat - completely legal if in a holster - and it caused me nothing but grief. I haven't done that for years. With all that, I hope the gov signs it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 April 9, 2010 Quotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdthomas 0 #5 April 9, 2010 I hope that it passes! In other positive CCW info Kansas is a step closer to allowing CCW in colleges! Can you imagine that you could defend yourself if a shooter came to your campus?www.greenboxphotography.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #6 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #7 April 9, 2010 Quote I hope that it passes! In other positive CCW info Kansas is a step closer to allowing CCW in colleges! Can you imagine that you could defend yourself if a shooter came to your campus? Yup, how wonderful to have all those 18-22 year olds with raging hormones at frat parties packing heat.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 April 9, 2010 Quoteallow people to carry concealed weapons without a permit Oh my gosh! Blood will run in the streets! There will be shootouts at every traffic intersection! The sky is falling! Wolf! Wolf! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #9 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #10 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuote I hope that it passes! In other positive CCW info Kansas is a step closer to allowing CCW in colleges! Can you imagine that you could defend yourself if a shooter came to your campus? Yup, how wonderful to have all those 18-22 year olds with raging hormones at frat parties packing heat. Not.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #11 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #12 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase. Yeah; but I'm not talking about purchasing. I'm talking about carrying in a concealed manner. As a matter of public policy, what's the down side of it being unlawful for a person who does not pass a criminal/mental health background check to carry concealed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #13 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase. Yeah; but I'm not talking about purchasing. I'm talking about carrying in a concealed manner. As a matter of public policy, what's the down side of it being unlawful for a person who does not pass a criminal/mental health background check to carry concealed? How'd they buy the gun without having the NICS check done? Why the extra scrutiny for concealed vs. open carry? Why not demand that hunters have a criminal/background check before going out in the field with high-powered rifles?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #14 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase.Wrong. Example> http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/Nevada/Sporting-goods/Guns/I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #15 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase.Wrong. Example> http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/Nevada/Sporting-goods/Guns/ You do realize that when you buy a gun from a private party they ship the gun to a FFL who then runs a NICS check on you anyway. Maybe I'm wrong here but every gun Ive ever bought from a private party has been transfered this way.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #16 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase. Or go to a gun show and buy from a private seller in a state like Arizona that doesn't require a NICS check for such sales. Or get a buddy to make a straw purchase for them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #17 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase.Wrong. Example> http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/Nevada/Sporting-goods/Guns/ You do realize that when you buy a gun from a private party they ship the gun to a FFL who then runs a NICS check on you anyway. Maybe I'm wrong here but every gun Ive ever bought from a private party has been transfered this way. That depends on the state. Only 17 states require such a check.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #18 April 9, 2010 I'm really am trying to keep this simple & straight-forward. I'm feeling a bit frustrated because I don't feel like I'm really getting a direct answer to my question, after several tries. QuoteHow'd they buy the gun without having the NICS check done? Purchasing is irrelevant to my particular inquiry. The law doesn't say one may only carry a gun one has purchased. I'm talking about possession, not ownership or purchase. QuoteWhy the extra scrutiny for concealed vs. open carry? I suppose the policy rationale for conceal-carry being more restricted than open-carry is that if you're carrying open, a potential robbery or attack victim or cop will have more and sooner notice that you're armed; whereas if you're carrying concealed, and you have a criminal (as opposed to a lawful) intent for doing so, you can conceal the fact that you're armed right up until the very instant when you intend to pull out your gun and use it for a criminal purpose. So please (please!) answer directly: what's wrong with mandating that the only people who can carry concealed are those who have passed a criminal.mental health background check? I hope you'll answer this directly now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #19 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotea bill that would allow Arizonans to forego background checks and classes that are now required. What are the public policy justifications for this bill? Let's assume the state has a "must issue CCW permit" law. In that event: -What's wrong with a background check to make sure the applicant doesn't have a criminal record or mental illness flag? -What's wrong with some method (or various alternative methods) for assuring the person knows how to use the gun safely? - Making it a crime to carry w/o a permit has at least one salutary purpose: if a cop stops & frisks someone who's acting suspiciously, and he's carrying a gun w/o a permit - and the reason he has no permit is because he's a convicted criminal or has a mental health flag, that allows the cop to stop the person cold right there instead of releasing him. Arizona is already an open carry state. The part you quote regards a CCW license. The law puts the people who want to CCW on the same footing as the people who carry openly. OK, so let's eliminate "safe gun instruction" from the discussion. What's wrong with mandating that the only people allowed to carry concealed are those that pass a criminal/mental health background check? They still have to go through NICS to purchase.Wrong. Example> http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/Nevada/Sporting-goods/Guns/ You do realize that when you buy a gun from a private party they ship the gun to a FFL who then runs a NICS check on you anyway. Maybe I'm wrong here but every gun Ive ever bought from a private party has been transfered this way. That depends on the state. Only 17 states require such a check. State requirement or not. It just makes good sense for a private seller to tranfere a firearm this way. That way if there is ever a crime committed with the gun the sellers hands are clean and its up to the purchaser to provide an explination. I would never sell anyone a gun without using a FFL for the transfere. The way I figure it, if the buyer insists on NOT using a FFL then theres a pretty damn good chance I dont really want to be linked with selling them a firearm.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #20 April 9, 2010 QuoteOr go to a gun show and buy from a private seller in a state like Arizona that doesn't require a NICS check for such sales. Or get them from the thug down on the corner or from family - you know, like 80% of the crime guns. QuoteOr get a buddy to make a straw purchase for them. Or their relatives, like Sarah Brady making a straw purchase for her son.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #21 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteOr go to a gun show and buy from a private seller in a state like Arizona that doesn't require a NICS check for such sales. Or get them from the thug down on the corner or from family - you know, like 80% of the crime guns. QuoteOr get a buddy to make a straw purchase for them. Or their relatives, like Sarah Brady making a straw purchase for her son. So now you're backtracking and admitting that they CAN purchase a gun without a NICS check, contrary to your previous lie claim.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #22 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteOr go to a gun show and buy from a private seller in a state like Arizona that doesn't require a NICS check for such sales. Or get them from the thug down on the corner or from family - you know, like 80% of the crime guns. QuoteOr get a buddy to make a straw purchase for them. Or their relatives, like Sarah Brady making a straw purchase for her son. So now you're backtracking and admitting that they CAN purchase a gun without a NICS check, contrary to your previous lie claim. Sure can. In much the same way you can purchase cocaine... IlegalyMuff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #23 April 9, 2010 QuoteI'm really am trying to keep this simple & straight-forward. I'm feeling a bit frustrated because I don't feel like I'm really getting a direct answer to my question, after several tries. No, you're trying to isolate to a single demographic and I'm not letting you. QuoteI suppose the policy rationale for conceal-carry being more restricted than open-carry is that if you're carrying open, a potential robbery or attack victim or cop will have more and sooner notice that you're armed; whereas if you're carrying concealed, and you have a criminal (as opposed to a lawful) intent for doing so, you can conceal the fact that you're armed right up until the very instant when you intend to criminally use the gun. And a criminal that is open-carrying can conceal his intent to commit the crime right up until the very instant that he criminally uses the gun. QuoteSo please answer directly: what's wrong with mandating that the only people who can carry concealed are those who have passed a criminal.mental health background check? I hope you'll answer this directly now. Because it treats the concealed carry holders differently than the open carry holders. Currently, the people that *DO* decide to get a concealed carry licence (in order to have the same reciprocity with other states that they do with their driver's licenses) go through those background checks you're so enamored of for just them.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #24 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuote State requirement or not. It just makes good sense for a private seller to tranfere a firearm this way. That way if there is ever a crime committed with the gun the sellers hands are clean and its up to the purchaser to provide an explination. I would never sell anyone a gun without using a FFL for the transfere. The way I figure it, if the buyer insists on NOT using a FFL then theres a pretty damn good chance I dont really want to be linked with selling them a firearm. Good sense to you maybe, but the gun lobby has opposed proposals at the state and federal level to make it a requirement. There are plenty of undesirables that don't have your good sense.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #25 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr go to a gun show and buy from a private seller in a state like Arizona that doesn't require a NICS check for such sales. Or get them from the thug down on the corner or from family - you know, like 80% of the crime guns. QuoteOr get a buddy to make a straw purchase for them. Or their relatives, like Sarah Brady making a straw purchase for her son. So now you're backtracking and admitting that they CAN purchase a gun without a NICS check, contrary to your previous lie claim. Sure can. In much the same way you can purchase cocaine... Ilegaly OH well, I'm sure a convicted FELON wanting to buy a gun would NEVER do anything ILLEGAL.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 2,150 #25 April 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOr go to a gun show and buy from a private seller in a state like Arizona that doesn't require a NICS check for such sales. Or get them from the thug down on the corner or from family - you know, like 80% of the crime guns. QuoteOr get a buddy to make a straw purchase for them. Or their relatives, like Sarah Brady making a straw purchase for her son. So now you're backtracking and admitting that they CAN purchase a gun without a NICS check, contrary to your previous lie claim. Sure can. In much the same way you can purchase cocaine... Ilegaly OH well, I'm sure a convicted FELON wanting to buy a gun would NEVER do anything ILLEGAL.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
