loumeinhart 0 #26 March 25, 2010 QuoteI didn't realize you were a justice on the Supreme Court. That's very cool. I was almost nominated but they got ahold of my posts on dz.com.. If I were on the supreme court I would argue that a law requiring you to buy something simply for being alive, is unconstitutional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #27 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteI didn't realize you were a justice on the Supreme Court. That's very cool. I was almost nominated but they got ahold of my posts on dz.com.. If I were on the supreme court I would argue that a law requiring you to buy something simply for being alive, is unconstitutional. Although I think most of the bill will be upheld on a Commerce Clause rationale, that provision is one that I do think has some vulnerability on constitutional grounds. But here's where I think the US Govt might still prevail on that issue: because the "fine" is not assessed as a "fine", but as an additional tax. So if I were a govt lawyer, I'd say that what's really taking place is that everyone is subject to an additional HC tax to offset the increases in coverage and decreases in premiums, but those who purchase their own plan get an exemption from the tax. I'd imagine that if either side brings this analysis into play, there will probably be comparisons made to the arguments for & against tuition tax credits for people who send their kids to non-public schools. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #28 March 25, 2010 QuoteI'd say that what's really taking place is that everyone is subject to an additional HC tax to offset the increases in coverage and decreases in premiums, but those who purchase their own plan get an exemption from the tax. I see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 March 25, 2010 QuoteBut here's where I think the US Govt might still prevail on that issue: because the "fine" is not assessed as a "fine", but as an additional tax. So if I were a govt lawyer, I'd say that what's really taking place is that everyone is subject to an additional HC tax to offset the increases in coverage and decreases in premiums, but those who purchase their own plan get an exemption from the tax. . this is the legitimate argument out there right now. slimy as it is ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #30 March 25, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Ummm, NO Ummm in 2014 I am required by federal law to enroll in a private health insurance plan. This is absolutely unconstitutional. I agree but, will the courts. And I ponder this because of a ruling many years ago when a farmer was forced to pay a fine (by the fed gov) for raising 12 acres of wheat instead of 10. A fine the court upheld..... Don't remind them - they'll mandate we all buy frosted mini-wheats or something.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #31 March 25, 2010 Quote[But here's where I think the US Govt might still prevail on that issue: because the "fine" is not assessed as a "fine", but as an additional tax. interesting, but would they save that arguement until after the 2012 election? taking that stance before then could be detrimental to obama's re-election similar to "read my lips, no new taxes." i'm guessing that is that is the route they chose, they could save it until it reached the supreme court which usually takes a very long time. out of curiousity, how fast or slow can things like this move through the system and what speeds them up or slows them down? "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #32 March 25, 2010 Quoteinteresting, but would they save that arguement until after the 2012 election? taking that stance before then could be detrimental to obama's re-election similar to "read my lips, no new taxes." But Obama didn't really campaign on no new taxes the way Repubs do. He campaigned on "we've inherited a big fucking mess, and we've got to do what we've got to do to fix it; and yes, some of that will be painful." Quotei'm guessing that is that is the route they chose, they could save it until it reached the supreme court which usually takes a very long time. out of curiousity, how fast or slow can things like this move through the system and what speeds them up or slows them down? The short answer is (a) federal courts tend to move very quickly in any event, and (b) any particular lawsuit can be given an extra fast-track. Put the two together, and this case might move quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #33 March 25, 2010 Quote Don't remind them - they'll mandate we all buy frosted mini-wheats or something. glad you struck that. Frosted mini-wheats would be the Cadillac cereal and be subject to an additional tax.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #34 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuote Don't remind them - they'll mandate we all buy frosted mini-wheats or something. glad you struck that. Frosted mini-wheats would be the Cadillac cereal and be subject to an additional tax. They can take my Cap'n Crunch when they pry the box out of my cold, dead hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #35 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote Don't remind them - they'll mandate we all buy frosted mini-wheats or something. glad you struck that. Frosted mini-wheats would be the Cadillac cereal and be subject to an additional tax. They can take my Cap'n Crunch when they pry the box out of my cold, dead hand. Captain Crunch will soon be either illegal or very heavily taxed. It is unhealthy, and you are burdening society by eating it. There could be a bright side to this form of governance. They could make being fat illegal. Actually to be more in line with the trend, I suppose making it mandatory to buy and consume low fat foods is where we are headed. Getting a little paunchy - you get a tattoo on your forehead and it becomes illegal for you to purchase: <> Any food that derives more than 10% of it's calories from fat. <> Any milk other than soy. <> Cheese. <> Alcohol. <> Bacon. <> Tight-fitting clothes; other than a choke-collar so people can give you a firm yank when you walk past McD's. <> Any motorized form of transportation. Fat people will be required to walk - everywhere. Hey, it's for the good of society. Obesity is costing the country too much money." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #36 March 25, 2010 we 'could' always offer it. But as you know, and as stupid as this may sound to be the absolute OBVIOUS health care is expensive. Few if any companies supply full health care benefits to their staff - let alone a dropzone. We used to have a group plan and everyone used to be in it. It also used to be reasonably priced. It got pricier and pricier and the staff chose NOT to participate, even those we were paying for half of it. SO eventually we have no one int he plan, therefore no plan. Others in these forums would perceive that as "Skydive City unwilling to provide health insurance to their staff". Sadly they have no fucking idea about anything that we do or do not provide to our staff and I get pissed just having some internet hacks take pot shots from afar when they know nothing of what we do to take care of our staff, I onc personally arrange for a hernia operation for one of my staff since he did not make enough money to buy any form of insurance, and needed the surgery. We made a lot of phone calls and through a lot of work, got a doctor to do it, got a hospital to donate the room and time, got nurses to help with the recovery and we got it done. That might sound like a wonderful example of how it is supposed to work, but it is actually a very good example of how PISS POOR the health care is in this country. The new legislation will pretty much force everyone to have health insurance in this country and will probably tax, in some way, companies and perhaps even make it more worth our while, not to mention the must have. I could easily supply my staff with a health insurance policy for $50/month. It would cover NOTHING. I could offer them a comprehensive gold package for $400/month each, but then your jump tickets would be $30/jump and we would go out of business. I have no idea why I have to explain the obvious as to why small businesses cannot and do not generally offer health insurance WHETHER OR NOT they believe that health care is a good idea. BTW, I am and always have been, an advocate of HEALTH CARE, not an advocate of HEALTH INSURANCE. Health INSURANCE is pretty much useless in this country. Health CARE would be a better goal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #37 March 25, 2010 QuoteIt also used to be reasonably priced. It got pricier and pricier and the staff chose NOT to participate, even those we were paying for half of it. SO eventually we have no one int he plan, therefore no plan. Others in these forums would perceive that as "Skydive City unwilling to provide health insurance to their staff". Some might have that perception of your operation. However, I think most people see this for what it really is; the staff didn't want to pay for insurance. I get that BTW. It's not cheap. But please don't require me to pay for insurance for people who don't want to inconvenience themselves.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #38 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteIt also used to be reasonably priced. It got pricier and pricier and the staff chose NOT to participate, even those we were paying for half of it. SO eventually we have no one int he plan, therefore no plan. Others in these forums would perceive that as "Skydive City unwilling to provide health insurance to their staff". Some might have that perception of your operation. However, I think most people see this for what it really is; the staff didn't want to pay for insurance. I get that BTW. It's not cheap. But please don't require me to pay for insurance for people who don't want to inconvenience themselves. If like in most other Western countries, there was a single-payer system in place, nobody could choose to not "inconvenience themselves", because all taxes paid by everyone would be partly allocated toward the HC system that is used by everyone, just as taxes today are used for roads, police and fire departments used by everyone. But I guess the people in every other Western industrialized nation on the planet are all obtuse, and we in the US are the only ones who "get it". Bravo for us! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #39 March 25, 2010 disagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #40 March 25, 2010 Oh, by the way: Quoteplease don't require me to pay for insurance for people who don't want to inconvenience themselves. Please don't require me to pay or sacrifice our children's lives for needless wars for people like "Air Cadet" Bush who needed to salve his Oedipus complex and show his dad that he was a real man, or "other priorities" Cheney, who wanted to maximize profits for Halliburton. Maybe I'd feel differently if funding for those wars came directly out of their pockets, and not partly out of mine, and if Jenna Bush and Liz Cheney were in uniform in Fallujah - but that didn't happen, did it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #41 March 25, 2010 Quotedisagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... I think you and Carl Marx are on the same page"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #42 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuotedisagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... I think you and Carl Marx are on the same page Brilliant. Even with "K", it would still be brilliant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #43 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotedisagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... I think you and Carl Marx are on the same page Brilliant. Even with "K", it would still be brilliant. You will figure it out"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #44 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuotedisagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... I think you and Carl Marx are on the same page Brilliant. Even with "K", it would still be brilliant. You will figure it out Perhaps a course in economics at your local community college is in order to help you with your misconceptions... insted of getting all of your information from the EIB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #45 March 25, 2010 Quotedisagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... My question then is "where does it stop?" Today it's insurance, tomorrow it's conscripting for the military. 20 years from now it could be collectives. Where is the line drawn, or is there a line? How much should the governement be responsible for?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #46 March 25, 2010 QuoteQuotedisagree, I will, I do and I will continue to support making YOU, me, everyone else, corporations and whoever else we can tax - PAY FOR and get health care for all Americans. Medicare for all, paid for through the tax base. Just like 'Police, firefighters, roads, schools' for everyone, paid for by the tax base....... My question then is "where does it stop?" Today it's insurance, tomorrow it's conscripting for the military. 20 years from now it could be collectives. Where is the line drawn, or is there a line? How much should the governement be responsible for? And in the election in 2016 it will be the fake birth certificate created on the muslim homeworld Kenyanistan for the politician running as Sam Ben Unloaded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #47 March 25, 2010 QuoteAnd in the election in 2016 it will be the fake birth certificate created on the muslim homeworld Kenyanistan for the politician running as Sam Ben Unloaded. Starring Ben Afflack, Ben Kingsley and Miriam D'Abo adapted from the best selling novel by Vince Flynn (in conjunction with Raymond Feist) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #48 March 25, 2010 Quote Please don't require me to pay or sacrifice our children's lives while the taxes are being paid and debt racked up wrt operations in Iraq, anyone who has lost their life in that debacle, volunteered for service. Yes, death is tragic, and I'm not minimizing any sacrifices made. But let's not pretend they were drafted and required to join the service.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #49 March 25, 2010 Quote My question then is "where does it stop?" let's hope it stops short of soylent green-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #50 March 25, 2010 >while the taxes are being paid and debt racked up wrt operations in Iraq, >anyone who has lost their life in that debacle, volunteered for service. Other than the 100,000 or so Iraqis who died. (I know, they don't count.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
