I'm against universal healthcare because...

[kelpdiver 2]

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To Obama/Congress' credit I think they knew there were controversial aspects to this legislation and set the main implementation date--2014--far enough in the future to give both the electorate and the courts a chance to weigh in before all of this gets too deeply entrenched in the federal bureaucracy. I think that was a gutsy call for which they deserve credit.

That's cowardice, not courage. Pass something that doesn't take affect for 4 years, so by the time it hurts, the voter won't remember who was responsible for it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Personally I wish ALL you fuckers could get the kind of care I have gotten in the last 3 years. Once you see what the state of our health care is in REALITY... not your fantasy that you will be covered, really is you MIGHT change your mind.

I crashed rather hard in 2006, broke 5 bones, nicked the spleen, and had a plate and 10 long screws put into my shoulder. So yes, I did get a wide look at HC.

The highway patrol took me to the designated trauma center - Stanfurd. Terrible experience - they kept me alive, but failed on every other count of patient care. As soon as I was discharged, I threw away their card for the orthopedic department and got a reference here for a smaller office. Thanks to the PPO plan, I could select the surgeon. Instead of having thousands of employees, it was an office with a dozen or two. The quality of care and the speed getting in and out of the office was remarkably different. I then got a list of PT clinics and again selected a small one near home, with again about 20 people working in it.

Things that went really badly - the reams of paperwork, the explanation of benefits sheets, the comical 2.5 year back and forth of Stanfurd and Blue Shield over paying for a CT scan that was clearly needed (lead to minor surgery). Lots of potential improvement on the administrative end.

But the care I got was quite good, and it was best when I got away from the large hospitals and dealt with the more specialized groups. If the changes that come makes those less viable, it is a loss in quality of care for me personally. The Primary Care Physician model used by HMOs is a huge loss in quality. The good doctors aren't taking new patients, and they have far too many already. The Kaiser model is great on paperwork, lousy if you get any injuries that call for PT. Cheaper, but not better. Is that our future?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Where were all these rock throwing gun toting "patriots" when Bush was making a mockery of liberty and the Constitution? This isn't about health care. It's about a bunch of white people who don't like black people . . .

talk about rock throwing "patriots."

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Of course it gain 150 points since the passage of the HC Bill, so I guess you're perfect: PERFECTLY WRONG .

How much you want to bet most if not all of it was due to insurance company gains - you know, those people you were ranting about charging so much?

Then there is this

http://www.breitbart.tv/shocking-audio-rep-dingell-says-obamacare-will-eventually-control-the-people

Hardly the reaction that one would expect after a "government takeover".

Except it makes perfect sense when you look at it - they will now have to bump their rates and fees to accommodate for the change. So the rise is temporary.

3rd time of asking - how many health insurance companies are in the DOW?

Kall you are not going to let this go so I will just say it...... out of the top 10 .... 3 are traded and technically anthem is now wellpoint so 3 of 9 of the top health insurers.

And what contribution did Wellpoint and the other two make to the Dow Jones index?

The unsubstantiated claim is that the market rise (and specifically the DOW) was driven by health insurance providers.


WELL, GEE, turns out Wellpoint is DOWN since the HC bill passed.

That is true. I've got a spread on Wellpoint right now so lets hope it doesn't move too much either way

No.... the market did not rise bc of ins. co's so you are correct in stating that. Now can we move on?

Depends. If Mike and Marc follow their normal MO and ignore every fact that disagrees with their world view, I'll keep on their case.

I notice that the economies of, for example, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Norway, Ireland, Australia, Canada and Switzerland didn't collapse when they "socialized" their medical care.

In fact, capitalist bankers have done more damage to the world economy of late than have any health care issues.

Oh let me be clear.... I do not think the HC bill will hit the the market hard nor collapse the economy as is..... additions could and I do think a lot of other really bad factors out thre could really hurt us.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[kallend 2,174]

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Besides the DOW, how many other US market indexes rose over 100 points since the HC law passed?

Bit of a silly question when the other major indexes are on a much smaller scale. S&P500, a much more valid marker, but it's currently at 1168, 11% of the quantity of the DOW marker.
.

EXACTLY

- so the comment "Of course it gain 150 points since the passage of the HC Bill", (which I notice you snipped, accidentally I'm sure) can ONLY have been about the DOW. Rushmc replied without paying attention to the thread, as usual, and you engaged in selective snipping.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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- so the comment "Of course it gain 150 points since the passage of the HC Bill", (which I notice you snipped, accidentally I'm sure) can ONLY have been about the DOW. Rushmc replied without paying attention to the thread, as usual, and you engaged in selective snipping.

Impossible to tell which of you (or all) were on crack, so I just addressed the problem. If you feel defensive about it, there might be a reason.

[kallend 2,174]

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- so the comment "Of course it gain 150 points since the passage of the HC Bill", (which I notice you snipped, accidentally I'm sure) can ONLY have been about the DOW. Rushmc replied without paying attention to the thread, as usual, and you engaged in selective snipping.

Impossible to tell which of you (or all) were on crack, so I just addressed the problem. If you feel defensive about it, there might be a reason.

In that case you could have left rush to answer for himself, since the question WAS directed at him.

BTW, Your selective snipping is NOT clever.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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Of course it gain 150 points since the passage of the HC Bill, so I guess you're perfect: PERFECTLY WRONG .

How much you want to bet most if not all of it was due to insurance company gains - you know, those people you were ranting about charging so much?

Then there is this

http://www.breitbart.tv/shocking-audio-rep-dingell-says-obamacare-will-eventually-control-the-people

Hardly the reaction that one would expect after a "government takeover".

Except it makes perfect sense when you look at it - they will now have to bump their rates and fees to accommodate for the change. So the rise is temporary.

3rd time of asking - how many health insurance companies are in the DOW?

Kall you are not going to let this go so I will just say it...... out of the top 10 .... 3 are traded and technically anthem is now wellpoint so 3 of 9 of the top health insurers.

BTW, how's that market crash you predicted coming along? Gonna pay your margin calls or let em go? Yea, market really crashed, huh?

[RonD1120 62]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[okalb 104]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

How very christian of you

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[kallend 2,174]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

How very christian of you

Unfortunately the right wing in the USA has become dominated by foul, mean spirited bigots, and the Christian right is no exception..

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Unfortunately the right wing in the USA has become dominated by foul, mean spirited bigots, and the Christian right is no exception..

Whattayaknow...progressivism *has* caught on, evidently.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[idrankwhat 0]

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.....Things that went really badly - the reams of paperwork, the explanation of benefits sheets, the comical 2.5 year back and forth of Stanfurd and Blue Shield over paying for a CT scan that was clearly needed (lead to minor surgery). Lots of potential improvement on the administrative end.

But the care I got was quite good, a...

This is common and needs to be brought up more often in the national dialog.

[RonD1120 62]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

How very christian of you

Don't you believe in the Theory of Evolution?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rehmwa 2]

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Unfortunately the right wing in the USA has become dominated by foul, mean spirited bigots, and the Christian right is no exception..

Whattayaknow...progressivism *has* caught on, evidently.

and the world comes into balance - but degraded on both ends rather than lifting each other up as the process of having respectful but opposing viewpoints in an open forum "should" have encouraged

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ion01 2]

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As a non american i haven't been exposed to as much of the internal debate on the universal Healthcare bill as some of you. Coming form a country where healthcare is free at the poiunt of care for all I find it difficult to understand why anyone would want to restrict it from those in need who don't have money. So why are you against universal healthcare?

Its not free! You and everyone else pay for it through taxes and government run healthcare introduces more fraud, more refusal of coverage, and higher cost than privatized healthcare (compare medicare to the private industry not to mention the insane things happening in a lot of the european contries). All these things result in less economic growth as well. This is the reason that a cat scan for a dog doesn't require a 6 month wait and cost significantly less that one for a human in canada! Healthcare is more affordable and available to animals than humans because it is privatized and doesn't have miles of government read tape and lawsuit after lawsuit because the doctors aren't God.
NOTHING IS FREE!

[Ion01 2]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

Well, that is an issue for evolutionist as universal healthcare is contrary to survival of the fittest, except for the fact that gives them control to clean the gene pool! Remember, eugenics started here and the nazi's got there idea for mass extermination from us.
I, however, am for freedom which also means that everyone is responsible for their own decisions and must live with the consiquences whether they are good or bad. Who are you, the polititians, or anyone else to decide what is right and best for me and my life? Its mine, not yours! I was garranteed freedom and who are they to take it away! I don't care of 100% voted for it, its unconstitutional and that is why we are a republic not a democracy! That is why we have a constitution!
Thats why people like Representative Dingell said "it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."
TO CONTROL THE PEOPLE! What an admission! That is not what this country, the constitution, the government and freedom is about. Its not about controlling the people. The government was established to protect our freedoms so we could make our own decisions and live with them. The government was not established to protect us from our own decisions. How do they know if its better. Because I went without insurance for years I now own two homes! I would still be in a stinky little apartment had I not and if the risk didn't pay off and I got sick I am the only one responsible and I have to live with it! But it did and they don't want me to be able to make those kinds of decision that was actually better. How do they know what is "best" for everyone. They don't! The only think that is best for everyone is freedom! It makes healthcare more available and better than any other option. It makes everything more available and better than any other option but the reality is that people don't want to be responsible for themselve and don't want to deal with the consenquences of thier own decisions. So everyone must be punished so they don't have to live with thier mistakes. What do we call that today? Redistribution.....also known as communism!

[RonD1120 62]

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Well, that is an issue for evolutionist as universal healthcare is contrary to survival of the fittest, except for the fact that gives them control to clean the gene pool! Remember, eugenics started here and the nazi's got there idea for mass extermination from us.
I, however, am for freedom which also means that everyone is responsible for their own decisions and must live with the consiquences whether they are good or bad. Who are you, the polititians, or anyone else to decide what is right and best for me and my life? Its mine, not yours! I was garranteed freedom and who are they to take it away! I don't care of 100% voted for it, its unconstitutional and that is why we are a republic not a democracy! That is why we have a constitution!
Thats why people like Representative Dingell said "it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."
TO CONTROL THE PEOPLE! What an admission! That is not what this country, the constitution, the government and freedom is about. Its not about controlling the people. The government was established to protect our freedoms so we could make our own decisions and live with them. The government was not established to protect us from our own decisions. How do they know if its better. Because I went without insurance for years I now own two homes! I would still be in a stinky little apartment had I not and if the risk didn't pay off and I got sick I am the only one responsible and I have to live with it! But it did and they don't want me to be able to make those kinds of decision that was actually better. How do they know what is "best" for everyone. They don't! The only think that is best for everyone is freedom! It makes healthcare more available and better than any other option. It makes everything more available and better than any other option but the reality is that people don't want to be responsible for themselve and don't want to deal with the consenquences of thier own decisions. So everyone must be punished so they don't have to live with thier mistakes. What do we call that today? Redistribution.....also known as communism!

Amen!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Amazon 7]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

How very christian of you

+1

Unfortunately.. that seems to be the norm for so many american "christians" and hell they supposedly dont even believe in evolution.. so the dicotomy is staggering

[airdvr 210]

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So why are you against universal healthcare?

I favor the Darwinian theory of survival of the fittest.

If you are not intelligent enough to figure out your own healthcare system then your existence weakens the gene pool.

Well, that is an issue for evolutionist as universal healthcare is contrary to survival of the fittest, except for the fact that gives them control to clean the gene pool! Remember, eugenics started here and the nazi's got there idea for mass extermination from us.
I, however, am for freedom which also means that everyone is responsible for their own decisions and must live with the consiquences whether they are good or bad. Who are you, the polititians, or anyone else to decide what is right and best for me and my life? Its mine, not yours! I was garranteed freedom and who are they to take it away! I don't care of 100% voted for it, its unconstitutional and that is why we are a republic not a democracy! That is why we have a constitution!
Thats why people like Representative Dingell said "it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."
TO CONTROL THE PEOPLE! What an admission! That is not what this country, the constitution, the government and freedom is about. Its not about controlling the people. The government was established to protect our freedoms so we could make our own decisions and live with them. The government was not established to protect us from our own decisions. How do they know if its better. Because I went without insurance for years I now own two homes! I would still be in a stinky little apartment had I not and if the risk didn't pay off and I got sick I am the only one responsible and I have to live with it! But it did and they don't want me to be able to make those kinds of decision that was actually better. How do they know what is "best" for everyone. They don't! The only think that is best for everyone is freedom! It makes healthcare more available and better than any other option. It makes everything more available and better than any other option but the reality is that people don't want to be responsible for themselve and don't want to deal with the consenquences of thier own decisions. So everyone must be punished so they don't have to live with thier mistakes. What do we call that today? Redistribution.....also known as communism!

Shhh...you're not allowed to talk like that anymore.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Its not free! You and everyone else pay for it through taxes and government run healthcare introduces more fraud, more refusal of coverage, and higher cost than privatized healthcare (compare medicare to the private industry not to mention the insane things happening in a lot of the european contries).

Government health care does not cost more.

Out of the OECD countries the United states has the lowest government share of health care spending (45% in 2007), spends the highest percentage of its GDP (16%), and spends the most per capita ($7290, 2.5X the average).

The OECD includes Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Luxembourg, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, the Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

The thing that gets me is that other countries are able to insure their entire population for what we spend on the governments' share of Medicare and Medicaid. We should be able to have the same thing for no more than we're spending now and keep our private insurance if we want more.