Is Thomas Jefferson a fictional character who doesn't belong in history books?

[Amazon 7]

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Is this another case of the American-Taliban striking again?

Yup

[billvon 3,111]

>But I detest bigotry, and those who jump to conclusions about an
>entire class of people based upon a single biased news editorial.

Yep. Imagine, someone assuming that anyone who prefers that science is taught in science class is a "religious bigot."

>Based upon this news story, you proposed to "exclude
>Texas-educated people from positions requiring an accurate
>understanding of the world - say, doctors, engineers, scientists and
>architects".

If Texas excludes science from their curriculum? Would make sense. They could teach whatever they choose, and would not put society at risk by producing doctors who do not "believe in" evolved drug resistance in bacteria.

Would you want to fly in an airplane designed by an engineer who was taught that prayer was a valid alternative to failsafe design? I wouldn't.

Of course, I'd have no problem with someone who was taught how to design failsafe systems AND who had their own religious faith. As long as the two are not taught as equally valid solutions to the same problem, good for them.

>And since those same school books are also used in many other states,
> why didn't you also include the citizens of those many other states in your
> exclusion?

If the programs in those states teach the same thing - sure. It's not Texas, it's the educational program.

>And of course, there are many well-respected doctors, engineers,
>scientists and architects who are also devoutly religious. But apparently
>according to you, they should all be fired from their jobs as incompetent.

Not at all. I know many engineers (myself included) who had years of religious training, and believe in God, the value of religion etc. Fortunately, in my case, no one tried to persuade me that "God did it" was a valid alternative to evolution.

[pirana 0]

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Fortunately, in my case, no one tried to persuade me that "God did it" was a valid alternative to evolution.

Remember Fathe Guido Sarducci's College of Theology?

God is Everywhere.

That's it, you pass, here's your degree.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Andy9o8 2]

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in my case, no one tried to persuade me that "God did it" was a valid alternative to evolution.

I thought you went to parochial schools.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Dear Texas: Please shut up. Sincerely, History

Hey, kids! Here's something I bet you didn't know: Black people? Back in 1800 or whenever? They liked being slaves. True! Many savvy, industrious Negroes actually volunteered for that fine, desirable position. It was a completely balanced, fair, hugely successful system, until those damn liberals came along and ruined everything. I know, right? What a shame.

Do you know what else? America was wholly victorious in Vietnam. It's a fact! Kicked some serious enemy butt! Mission accomplished! Sure it was a little bumpy for awhile, but President Nixon, that great and wronged American hero, put us on the righteous path in the end, wrapped that sucker up beautifully and made America the noble Superman to the world. Hey, it's the truth! You can look it up in your history textbook!

Full article here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/03/17/notes031710.DTL

[jgoose71 0]

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Because biased polls are awesome.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=texas-messes-with-history-10-03-15

This is utter crap. The separation of church and state was meant to keep things like the Spanish inquisition form happening all over again and prevent the U.S. from becoming a religious ran state like so many in the middle east ran by Sharia Law.

The problem is a few people on the far left have decided to use the separation of church and state as a platform to declare war on religion. Our founding fathers new the importance of morale fiber and still wanted religion, no matter what religion you chose to be a part of our lives. Even an atheists needs a morale compass of some sort to guide him down the paths of right and wrong. Nobody should try to take that away.

I call this "the pendulum effect". When a pendulum gains momentum it never stops in the middle. It has to swing to the left and the right a few times before it stops where it should be. You can thank the idiots on both sides for that.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jakee 1,594]

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The problem is a few people on the far left have decided to use the separation of church and state as a platform to declare war on religion.

Not really, just to keep it out of state controlled or funded enterprises.

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Our founding fathers new the importance of morale fiber and still wanted religion, no matter what religion you chose to be a part of our lives.

Or you can choose no religion.

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Even an atheists needs a morale compass of some sort to guide him down the paths of right and wrong. Nobody should try to take that away.

And that morale(sic) compass needs to be religion, does it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jgoose71 0]

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And that morale(sic) compass needs to be religion, does it?

The point is you have the right to choose your morale compass. If you don't agree with religion, that is fine. You don't have the right to take it away.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jakee 1,594]

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And that morale(sic) compass needs to be religion, does it?

The point is you have the right to choose your morale compass. If you don't agree with religion, that is fine. You don't have the right to take it away.

And who is doing that?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jgoose71 0]

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And that morale(sic) compass needs to be religion, does it?

The point is you have the right to choose your morale compass. If you don't agree with religion, that is fine. You don't have the right to take it away.

And who is doing that?

You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America? Time to come out from under the rock.

Google is your friend. Take a look at some of the atheist adds that went up last Christmas in government buildings if you have forgotten.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jakee 1,594]

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You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America?

The one that is trying to take away a person's right to believe in religion and is somehow doing so using seperation of church and state?

No, I honestly haven't.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mnealtx 0]

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You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America?

The one that is trying to take away a person's right to believe in religion and is somehow doing so using seperation of church and state?

No, I honestly haven't.

"Right to believe" != "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - you're arguing from a false pretense.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,594]

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You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America?

The one that is trying to take away a person's right to believe in religion and is somehow doing so using seperation of church and state?

No, I honestly haven't.

"Right to believe" != "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - you're arguing from a false pretense.

And you're making up your own fucking pretence. Show me where jgoose said "prohibiting the free excercise thereof" or 'fess up to inventing irrelevant objections just because you want an argument.

Do you ever get tired of being both pedantic and wrong?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Southern_Man 0]

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Dear Texas: Please shut up. Sincerely, History

Hey, kids! Here's something I bet you didn't know: Black people? Back in 1800 or whenever? They liked being slaves. True! Many savvy, industrious Negroes actually volunteered for that fine, desirable position. It was a completely balanced, fair, hugely successful system, until those damn liberals came along and ruined everything. I know, right? What a shame.

Full article here:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/03/17/notes031710.DTL

Wouldn't be the first time. I grew up in Virginia when we had the infamous Byrd textbooks on Virginia history which basically taught how slaves and Native Americans were much better off being subjugated.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Andy9o8 2]

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You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America?

The one that is trying to take away a person's right to believe in religion and is somehow doing so using seperation of church and state?

No, I honestly haven't.

You're wasting your time. Everything you say will be demagogued. It's not a true debate. You'll find yourself endlessly responding to the spinning of your words; and each time you clarify one point that's been twisted, it willhappen again.

When you find someone who is actually willing to debate you on subject like a grownup, rather than just playing this game, then it's worthwhile; not really otherwise.

[jgoose71 0]

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You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America?

The one that is trying to take away a person's right to believe in religion and is somehow doing so using seperation of church and state?

No, I honestly haven't.

I guess you missed my last line. Google is your friend. Here is one result from a quick search.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/atheist_display_at_capitol_in.html

If you don't believe in Christ, don't celebrate CHRISTmas. Doesn't mean you have to actively go after people. Let them believe what they want. That is what freedom of religion is about.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Andy9o8 2]

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Doesn't mean you have to actively go after people. Let them believe what they want.

To Jakee- see this shit? This is exactly the kind of demagoguery and twisting that I'm talking about. trying to debate with this is like trying to argue with a pre-logical child; it's really not worth it.

[jakee 1,594]

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You're wasting your time. Everything you say will be demagogued. It's not a true debate. You'll find yourself endlessly responding to the spinning of your words; and each time you clarify one point that's been twisted, it willhappen again.

When you find someone who is actually willing to debate you on subject like a grownup, rather than just playing this game, then it's worthwhile; not really otherwise.

Yeah, I know. Guess I'm just a masochist

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,594]

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I guess you missed my last line. Google is your friend. Here is one result from a quick search.

If that sign is someone trying to take away the personal religious beliefs and moral compass from you or any other American, then the nativity scene must be from a group trying to forcibly convert all heathen Americans to Christianity. Does that make sense to you? It sure as hell doesn't to me.

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If you don't believe in Christ, don't celebrate CHRISTmas.

The celebration of Christmas is by no means an exclusively Christian thing.

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Doesn't mean you have to actively go after people. Let them believe what they want. That is what freedom of religion is about.

If that sign is actively going after people and not letting them believe what they want, then that nativity scene is...

Fuck it. Y'know what? Andy's probably right.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mnealtx 0]

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You honestly haven't seen the far left and atheist movement to cut god out of America?

The one that is trying to take away a person's right to believe in religion and is somehow doing so using seperation of church and state?

No, I honestly haven't.

"Right to believe" != "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - you're arguing from a false pretense.

And you're making up your own fucking pretence. Show me where jgoose said "prohibiting the free excercise thereof" or 'fess up to inventing irrelevant objections just because you want an argument.

Maybe you should read the First Amendment since YOU were the one that mentioned a RIGHT as well as 'separation of church and state', long known to be a First Amendment issue.

You may now fess up to being

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both pedantic and wrong

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,594]

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Maybe you should read the First Amendment since YOU were the one that mentioned a RIGHT as well as 'separation of church and state', long known to be a First Amendment issue.

What? I mentioned "Right"? So I mentioned "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?

So let me get this straight: Now you're saying that because I said the word "right" I must have meant a constitutionally enumerated Right meaning "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" but because I said "right to believe" I must have meant something other than "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which means I'm arguing from a false pretence because we were talking about "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" because that's what I meant when I said "right" even though it's not what I meant?

What the fuck are you fuckng talking about?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,111]

>Here is one result from a quick search. http://www.oregonlive.com
>/...y_at_capitol_in.html

That's a link that shows someone putting up an atheist display next to a religious one. Why do you want to ban atheist displays? Why not let them believe what they want?

>If you don't believe in Christ, don't celebrate CHRISTmas.

If you work for the government you don't have a choice. You will take a mandatory vacation day in celebration of Christ's birth whether you want to or not.

>That is what freedom of religion is about.

It also means that you have to allow others to believe what they want, even if it makes you so mad steam comes out your ears.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Maybe you should read the First Amendment since YOU were the one that mentioned a RIGHT as well as 'separation of church and state', long known to be a First Amendment issue.

What? I mentioned "Right"? So I mentioned "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?

So let me get this straight: Now you're saying that because I said the word "right" I must have meant a constitutionally enumerated Right meaning "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" but because I said "right to believe" I must have meant something other than "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which means I'm arguing from a false pretence because we were talking about "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" because that's what I meant when I said "right" even though it's not what I meant?

What the fuck are you fuckng talking about?

See how easy it is to get sucked in to the "that's not what I said/meant" game?
It's got nothing to do with the subject, and everything to do with the game.
Feed them, and they will thrive.

[jgoose71 0]

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The celebration of Christmas is by no means an exclusively Christian thing.

And this is where you are wrong. Christmas, just like the name suggests, is where Christians are supposed to go to mas to celebrate the birth of Christ.

A lot of other religious holidays happen to fall around that time as well. For pagans, yule, for the Jewish, Hanukkah, and even for the African Americans, they made up there own Kwanzaa. To say that Christmas is not a Christian holiday is like saying Ramadan is not Muslim.

Yes, Christmas is in-your-face here in America, and that is because most Americans are christian. Let us have our religion and our holidays. Nobody is saying you can't have yours.

I would never go to Israel and try to tell them that Hanukkah is for Christians. At the same time, I don't think they would deny me my Christmas tree. And understanding their culture i wouldn't try to hang a Christmas tree next to their Menorah in the middle of their town square. This mutual respect is all I am asking for.

This war on religion here in America is going to have a huge backlash, as we are starting to see. And yes, that sign was put there only for the reason of challenging Christmas. No one has denied it.

The true meaning of Christmas has been lost to a lot of people. Now its all commercial.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Andy9o8 2]

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This war on religion here in America...

....is a myth, created by assholes like FoxNews and Rush Limbaugh who, knowing fully well it does not exist, created the myth for the sole purpose of making money by fabricating an issue where one does not exist, and who are laughing (all the way to the bank) behind the backs of the brainless goat-fuckers who actually believe and repeat it. Not apropos to anyone in particular.