idrankwhat 0 #26 March 16, 2010 Quote According to the IRS (2006 data), the cutoff for the top 10% was $110k, and there were 13.5 million filers that had an income above 100k. Those filers pay 71% of the taxes - how much more do you want to soak them for before YOU think they're paying their fair share? I can't verify the site but this graph seems to get help put things into perspective visually. When people are talking about the super rich we're talking about a scale that most people don't seem to comprehend. That's why statements like "the wealthy pay most of the taxes" is accurate, yet misleading as it only takes a small percentage of their total income to make a substantial contribution. http://www.lcurve.org/ Zoom in first, then out for perspective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 March 16, 2010 Who in the US, or anywhere on earth, earned 50B last year? 4 people on earth, I think (Buffer, Gates, Ellison, Slim) has a total worth in this area. So the graph is a lie. Big surprise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #28 March 16, 2010 QuoteWho in the US, or anywhere on earth, earned 50B last year? 4 people on earth, I think (Buffer, Gates, Ellison, Slim) has a total worth in this area. So the graph is a lie. Big surprise. You're right. On closer inspection it appears that Gates only increased his net worth by $10 billion last year, according to Forbes. So zoom out to the extreme, then back in by one. Zoom by two or three if you wish. Regardless, that last, very small percentage of the population has more wealth (and arguably political influence) than the rest of the nation combined. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #29 March 16, 2010 QuoteQuoteWho in the US, or anywhere on earth, earned 50B last year? 4 people on earth, I think (Buffer, Gates, Ellison, Slim) has a total worth in this area. So the graph is a lie. Big surprise. You're right. On closer inspection it appears that Gates only increased his net worth by $10 billion last year, according to Forbes. So zoom out to the extreme, then back in by one. Zoom by two or three if you wish. Regardless, that last, very small percentage of the population has more wealth (and arguably political influence) than the rest of the nation combined. Dude.. don't confuse him while he is basking in his trickle-down golden shower of wealth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #30 March 16, 2010 Quote Dude.. don't confuse him while he is basking in his trickle-down golden shower of wealth. If I wait patiently, will you make a point?You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 March 16, 2010 QuoteQuoteWho in the US, or anywhere on earth, earned 50B last year? 4 people on earth, I think (Buffer, Gates, Ellison, Slim) has a total worth in this area. So the graph is a lie. Big surprise. You're right. On closer inspection it appears that Gates only increased his net worth by $10 billion last year, according to Forbes. So zoom out to the extreme, then back in by one. Zoom by two or three if you wish. Regardless, that last, very small percentage of the population has more wealth (and arguably political influence) than the rest of the nation combined. And how much did his net worth decrease by in 2008? My net worth doubled last year. It's not because I'm rolling in dough. It's a reflection of the stock market recovering much, but certainly not all, of its prior losses. It's convenient, and quite dishonest, to only look at 2009. If you're looking for poster boys for undeserved wealth, Gates sure as hell isn't the right guy. Nor the other two Americans - they built their wealth from nothing. They made many others rich. They're exactly what is right with America, even if like me you're not a fan of Microsoft. Carlos Slim - he's certainly got that classic rich guy in poor latin American country thing going. Certainly some monopoly concerns there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #32 March 16, 2010 QuoteQuote Dude.. don't confuse him while he is basking in his trickle-down golden shower of wealth. If I wait patiently, will you make a point? Your personal sacred cow is going to be burnt to a crisp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #33 March 16, 2010 Quote And how much did his net worth decrease by in 2008? My net worth doubled last year. It's not because I'm rolling in dough. It's a reflection of the stock market recovering much, but certainly not all, of its prior losses. It's convenient, and quite dishonest, to only look at 2009. If you're looking for poster boys for undeserved wealth, Gates sure as hell isn't the right guy. Nor the other two Americans - they built their wealth from nothing. They made many others rich. They're exactly what is right with America, even if like me you're not a fan of Microsoft. Carlos Slim - he's certainly got that classic rich guy in poor latin American country thing going. Certainly some monopoly concerns there. You are dead on about the stock market. Gates certainly benefitted from a head-start in life. His father was an attorney and he attended private school where he had access to computers, mentors, and programming time at a time when that was quite rare. This is detailed in Malcolm Galdwell's Outliers, and many other places, I am sure. Doesn't mean he didn't work hard for his success or that he doesn't deserve it, but it is bit misleading to say he built his wealth from nothing."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #34 March 16, 2010 Quote If you're looking for poster boys for undeserved wealth, I'm not. And my point is apparently completely lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #35 March 16, 2010 QuoteQuote According to the IRS (2006 data), the cutoff for the top 10% was $110k, and there were 13.5 million filers that had an income above 100k. Those filers pay 71% of the taxes - how much more do you want to soak them for before YOU think they're paying their fair share? I can't verify the site but this graph seems to get help put things into perspective visually. When people are talking about the super rich we're talking about a scale that most people don't seem to comprehend. That's why statements like "the wealthy pay most of the taxes" is accurate, yet misleading as it only takes a small percentage of their total income to make a substantial contribution. http://www.lcurve.org/ Zoom in first, then out for perspective. Heh. heh; that site said 95 yard line." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hwt 0 #36 March 17, 2010 I see and w/o doing a search, I don't recall you bitching about this when your party was in control. When it is claimed that Clinton paid down the national debt, that is patently false--as can be seen, the national debt went up every single year. What Clinton did do was pay down the public debt--notice that the claimed surplus is relatively close to the decrease in the public debt for those years. But he paid down the public debt by borrowing far more money in the form of intragovernmental holdings (mostly Social Security)Clinton was the guy who raped Social security. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #37 March 17, 2010 >When it is claimed that Clinton paid down the national debt, that is patently false . . . In absolute terms, the only two presidents that adjusted national debt has gone down under, even for a single year, were Clinton and Carter. No president since Roosevelt has actually decreased the debt over the course of their presidency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 March 17, 2010 QuoteQuote If you're looking for poster boys for undeserved wealth, I'm not. And my point is apparently completely lost. Not really. It was just a really stupid point, and the author felt it necessary to lie to exaggerate it. Yes, there are extremely rich people out there. But as I said, those guys earned it through work and some good fortune. Buffet has pledged $30B in class B BRKB shares to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (guess who founded that) which quickly has become one of the largest charity foundations in the world, and it's spending 1.5B a year minimum. Guess what happens to that when you restrict those two guys to $200M in wealth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #39 March 17, 2010 Quote Not really. It was just a really stupid point, and the author felt it necessary to lie to exaggerate it. Apparently, you're still missing the point. The argument that the wealthy pay "their fair share" because the wealthiest pick up most of the tax tab omits the reality that it takes a smaller percentage of their tax to make that contribution. If I pay 7% on my federal return then I will have far less impact on federal tax revenues than the multi billionaire who pays 3%. Quote Yes, there are extremely rich people out there. But as I said, those guys earned it through work and some good fortune. Quote How do you earn "good fortune"? As for "work", not all work is created equal. People who "worked" very hard and profited by destroying our economy should not be lauded, no matter how hard they slaved away at it. Quote Buffet has pledged $30B in class B BRKB shares to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (guess who founded that) which quickly has become one of the largest charity foundations in the world, and it's spending 1.5B a year minimum. Guess what happens to that when you restrict those two guys to $200M in wealth. That's great. Buffett is a good man who really knows how to play the game. He also thinks he should be taxed more than he is. And I certainly never said anything about limiting anyone to $200 million. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fasted3 0 #40 March 17, 2010 Quote[Yes, there are extremely rich people out there. But as I said, those guys earned it through work and some good fortune. What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? People that make things, grow things, teach, heal, and other real jobs get little to show for their work, in comparison to those that gamble, cheat, steal, politic, and inherit. To get results like that, I think is a fucked up system.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites futuredivot 0 #41 March 17, 2010 Quote What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Work that you can convince someone to compensate you 1,000,000 more for. The kid cleaning fast food grease traps is probably as much or more a benefit to society as I am. Thankfully though, someone values my ability to add worth to their endeavors enough to pay me a lot more than fry boy is making. Lucky for at least a hand full of students, I get payed at a level that allows my wife to be a public school teacher and roll nearly 1/4 of her salary back in to school supplies.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #42 March 17, 2010 >What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Creating a cure for cancer is worth more than 1x10^6 times more than sweeping the floor (as just one example.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fasted3 0 #43 March 17, 2010 Nobody convinced me, yet a lot of my dollars ended up in their hands. I used to have an IRA... I doubt that anybody is convinced that the wall street and banking swindlers deserve multi-million dollar bonuses. Most politicians aren't worth the price of a rope to hang them, IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife provides more value to society than most people that 'earn' more than $1,000,000 per year. But you like our system? Really?But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #44 March 17, 2010 Quote>What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Creating a cure for cancer is worth more than 1x10^6 times more than sweeping the floor (as just one example.) When it happens, I will agree with you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fasted3 0 #45 March 17, 2010 QuoteQuote>What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Creating a cure for cancer is worth more than 1x10^6 times more than sweeping the floor (as just one example.) When it happens, I will agree with you. I'll agree that he should be rich, and I agree that some jobs should pay more than others. I just don't see the huge disparity that is happening now as a good thing.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #46 March 17, 2010 QuoteQuote[Yes, there are extremely rich people out there. But as I said, those guys earned it through work and some good fortune. What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? People that make things, grow things, teach, heal, and other real jobs get little to show for their work, in comparison to those that gamble, cheat, steal, politic, and inherit. To get results like that, I think is a fucked up system. As FD says, people who do work others value earn more. Lebron James is one of the kings of basketball right now. His performance has no value to me, but it does to those who pay for tickets and watch it on TV. If it didn't, the sport would have less revenue. Same with all of the other pro athletes. Where did your IRA go? Mine shrunk in 2008, it grew in 2009. No one stole it from you unless you allowed them to by selling at the low. And that's a key difference between most investors and Warren Buffet. He accumulated his fortune over a very long time. He took risks to do it, worked hard to do it. A lot of people whining about the millionaires out there aren't willing to do either. Some of them are just lazy. Some have different priorities. I don't like working > 50 hrs a week, and I really don't like working on weekends. I'd rather play outside. I'm doing a lot more of this than I want and I am getting paid for it. But it's still not not close to what the CEOs put in. The most common way to be a millionaire is to build your own business. Definitely more work and risk than a W2 job. How many people does Microsoft employ? 10s of thousands, directly. More indirectly. Your anger is directed at a small number of these people, but you generalize it to all of them taking advantage of you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #47 March 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteNot really. It was just a really stupid point, and the author felt it necessary to lie to exaggerate it. Apparently, you're still missing the point. The argument that the wealthy pay "their fair share" because the wealthiest pick up most of the tax tab omits the reality that it takes a smaller percentage of their tax to make that contribution. If I pay 7% on my federal return then I will have far less impact on federal tax revenues than the multi billionaire who pays 3%. So what? QuoteQuote Buffet has pledged $30B in class B BRKB shares to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (guess who founded that) which quickly has become one of the largest charity foundations in the world, and it's spending 1.5B a year minimum. Guess what happens to that when you restrict those two guys to $200M in wealth. That's great. Buffett is a good man who really knows how to play the game. He also thinks he should be taxed more than he is. And I certainly never said anything about limiting anyone to $200 million. So why isn't Buffett voluntarily paying more, since he's evidently not being taxed enough?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #48 March 18, 2010 QuoteWow, you're really getting worked up. Too bad you didn't try harder to be this articulate, with the bold and the underlining, in the first post. Then maybe you wouldn't have stated something so incorrectly. There was no bold, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. The underlining was to demonstrate what was written in the post where I clearly stated my point, at least those with a 6th grade education or higher could sustain that. I figured you would try to escape under the guise of unintelligibility. Can't make it much more clear than: What I'm talking about are EXPENSIVE, long, sustained conflicts oe wars. Examples: - WWII - Korea - VN - Iraq/AFG Wars Sorry, that's about as simplistic as I can make it. What did I state incorrectly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #49 March 18, 2010 QuoteSo why isn't Buffett voluntarily paying more, since he's evidently not being taxed enough? and any contribution to private charity doesn't count contributions to political causes don't count personally giving to anyone doesn't count loaning money to his down and out cousin doesn't count it's hypocrisy unless he gives money directly to the US treasury to do as the government sees fit with no strings or expectations - that's the end result of "happy to pay more" like any "please raise taxes" hypocrit - Buffet is happy for everyone else to pay more but doesn't have the balls to do it without forcing the rest of the tax paying base to do the same ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #50 March 18, 2010 Quote Quote You do understand the nature of all those conflicts Sure, but its too much fun to mess with a troll. According to you I'm a troll, yet you see emboldened letters where there are none and and go on this confused list of wars when I clearly state: What I'm talking about are EXPENSIVE, long, sustained conflicts oe wars. Examples: - WWII - Korea - VN - Iraq/AFG Wars Yea, you must need sleep; quit looking confused and help yourself a bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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fasted3 0 #40 March 17, 2010 Quote[Yes, there are extremely rich people out there. But as I said, those guys earned it through work and some good fortune. What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? People that make things, grow things, teach, heal, and other real jobs get little to show for their work, in comparison to those that gamble, cheat, steal, politic, and inherit. To get results like that, I think is a fucked up system.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #41 March 17, 2010 Quote What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Work that you can convince someone to compensate you 1,000,000 more for. The kid cleaning fast food grease traps is probably as much or more a benefit to society as I am. Thankfully though, someone values my ability to add worth to their endeavors enough to pay me a lot more than fry boy is making. Lucky for at least a hand full of students, I get payed at a level that allows my wife to be a public school teacher and roll nearly 1/4 of her salary back in to school supplies.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #42 March 17, 2010 >What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Creating a cure for cancer is worth more than 1x10^6 times more than sweeping the floor (as just one example.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #43 March 17, 2010 Nobody convinced me, yet a lot of my dollars ended up in their hands. I used to have an IRA... I doubt that anybody is convinced that the wall street and banking swindlers deserve multi-million dollar bonuses. Most politicians aren't worth the price of a rope to hang them, IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if your wife provides more value to society than most people that 'earn' more than $1,000,000 per year. But you like our system? Really?But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #44 March 17, 2010 Quote>What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Creating a cure for cancer is worth more than 1x10^6 times more than sweeping the floor (as just one example.) When it happens, I will agree with you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #45 March 17, 2010 QuoteQuote>What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? Creating a cure for cancer is worth more than 1x10^6 times more than sweeping the floor (as just one example.) When it happens, I will agree with you. I'll agree that he should be rich, and I agree that some jobs should pay more than others. I just don't see the huge disparity that is happening now as a good thing.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #46 March 17, 2010 QuoteQuote[Yes, there are extremely rich people out there. But as I said, those guys earned it through work and some good fortune. What work is worth 1,000,000 times as much as other work? People that make things, grow things, teach, heal, and other real jobs get little to show for their work, in comparison to those that gamble, cheat, steal, politic, and inherit. To get results like that, I think is a fucked up system. As FD says, people who do work others value earn more. Lebron James is one of the kings of basketball right now. His performance has no value to me, but it does to those who pay for tickets and watch it on TV. If it didn't, the sport would have less revenue. Same with all of the other pro athletes. Where did your IRA go? Mine shrunk in 2008, it grew in 2009. No one stole it from you unless you allowed them to by selling at the low. And that's a key difference between most investors and Warren Buffet. He accumulated his fortune over a very long time. He took risks to do it, worked hard to do it. A lot of people whining about the millionaires out there aren't willing to do either. Some of them are just lazy. Some have different priorities. I don't like working > 50 hrs a week, and I really don't like working on weekends. I'd rather play outside. I'm doing a lot more of this than I want and I am getting paid for it. But it's still not not close to what the CEOs put in. The most common way to be a millionaire is to build your own business. Definitely more work and risk than a W2 job. How many people does Microsoft employ? 10s of thousands, directly. More indirectly. Your anger is directed at a small number of these people, but you generalize it to all of them taking advantage of you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 March 18, 2010 QuoteQuoteNot really. It was just a really stupid point, and the author felt it necessary to lie to exaggerate it. Apparently, you're still missing the point. The argument that the wealthy pay "their fair share" because the wealthiest pick up most of the tax tab omits the reality that it takes a smaller percentage of their tax to make that contribution. If I pay 7% on my federal return then I will have far less impact on federal tax revenues than the multi billionaire who pays 3%. So what? QuoteQuote Buffet has pledged $30B in class B BRKB shares to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (guess who founded that) which quickly has become one of the largest charity foundations in the world, and it's spending 1.5B a year minimum. Guess what happens to that when you restrict those two guys to $200M in wealth. That's great. Buffett is a good man who really knows how to play the game. He also thinks he should be taxed more than he is. And I certainly never said anything about limiting anyone to $200 million. So why isn't Buffett voluntarily paying more, since he's evidently not being taxed enough?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #48 March 18, 2010 QuoteWow, you're really getting worked up. Too bad you didn't try harder to be this articulate, with the bold and the underlining, in the first post. Then maybe you wouldn't have stated something so incorrectly. There was no bold, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. The underlining was to demonstrate what was written in the post where I clearly stated my point, at least those with a 6th grade education or higher could sustain that. I figured you would try to escape under the guise of unintelligibility. Can't make it much more clear than: What I'm talking about are EXPENSIVE, long, sustained conflicts oe wars. Examples: - WWII - Korea - VN - Iraq/AFG Wars Sorry, that's about as simplistic as I can make it. What did I state incorrectly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #49 March 18, 2010 QuoteSo why isn't Buffett voluntarily paying more, since he's evidently not being taxed enough? and any contribution to private charity doesn't count contributions to political causes don't count personally giving to anyone doesn't count loaning money to his down and out cousin doesn't count it's hypocrisy unless he gives money directly to the US treasury to do as the government sees fit with no strings or expectations - that's the end result of "happy to pay more" like any "please raise taxes" hypocrit - Buffet is happy for everyone else to pay more but doesn't have the balls to do it without forcing the rest of the tax paying base to do the same ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #50 March 18, 2010 Quote Quote You do understand the nature of all those conflicts Sure, but its too much fun to mess with a troll. According to you I'm a troll, yet you see emboldened letters where there are none and and go on this confused list of wars when I clearly state: What I'm talking about are EXPENSIVE, long, sustained conflicts oe wars. Examples: - WWII - Korea - VN - Iraq/AFG Wars Yea, you must need sleep; quit looking confused and help yourself a bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
