Why I disagree with the NRA

[kallend 2,117]

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Tell us, why do you think it's more important to go after 0.7% of guns rather than 80% of guns?

I bet all those convicted criminals you believe also made "Not Guilty" pleas.

So, you're in good company with your support of 'existing laws', then.

Pay attention. I already wrote that I agree with Belgian.

2nd request, WHY do you support allowing felons (and other undesirables) to have easy access to guns DESPITE existing laws against it?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Pay attention. I already wrote that I agree with Belgian.

So what?

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2nd request, WHY do you support allowing felons (and other undesirables) to have easy access to guns DESPITE existing laws against it?

2nd request, WHY do you think it's more important to go after 0.7% of guns rather than 80% of guns?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,117]

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Pay attention. I already wrote that I agree with Belgian.

So what?

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2nd request, WHY do you support allowing felons (and other undesirables) to have easy access to guns DESPITE existing laws against it?

2nd request, WHY do you think it's more important to go after 0.7% of guns rather than 80% of guns?

Your 0.7% number comes from a survey of convicted criminals. Why do you believe convicted criminals tell the truth?

The BATF data comes from gun traces.

Guns don't kill lie, criminals do.

WHY do you support allowing felons (and other undesirables) to have easy access to guns DESPITE existing laws against it?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zep 0]

I live in Spain and I believe we have a good and fair system here.
If I want to buy a gun from a private seller I'll decide weather or not to
buy it, negociate a price, then we both go to the local state police office
and the seller gives them the guns papers, they then issue a new set of papers in my name.
Takes 15 minutes.

Just to clarify, every firearm here is registerd and has a certificate with the owners details
If you are carrying a firearm you must carry the certificate pertaining to that firearm.

Gone fishing

[skiskyrock 0]

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So then do you advocate private gun sales go thru a gun dealer? If not, more restriction on gun dealers only pushes the bad guy to the private sector and does nothing to keep guns out the hands of the crook/murderer.

No, I don't advocate running all sales through a gun dealer. The instant check system can be modified to allow private sellers to call and get a simple yes or no to the sale without revealing any private information. This in no way pushes more restriction on gun dealers, nor any more responsibility. Yes, it would push them toward the black market. But, as i said, it would also enable us to hold the seller partially responsible for the buyers actions if no attempt was made to check the buyers background.

The use of the NICS system would be a non-starter for me for any number of reasons (most related to privacy, practicality). However, one possible solution is available (at least in "shall issue" states). Include a line on the drivers license stating that the individual is/is not qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Rerun the background check at every license renewal.

This would be any easy way to check on the legality of face to face transactions.

If you felt strongly about it, you could opt out and have the card state that you aren't allowed to carry firearms even if legally qualified. This would provide some protection if an employer were to check the license.

A police officer or psychiatrist could put a temporary hold on you by taking a paper punch to the license (or confiscating it entirely).

Would it make any difference in crime rates? Unlikely.

[redlegphi 0]

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I live in Spain and I believe we have a good and fair system here.
If I want to buy a gun from a private seller I'll decide weather or not to
buy it, negociate a price, then we both go to the local state police office
and the seller gives them the guns papers, they then issue a new set of papers in my name.
Takes 15 minutes.

Just to clarify, every firearm here is registerd and has a certificate with the owners details
If you are carrying a firearm you must carry the certificate pertaining to that firearm.

OMG Spain is goin' 2 take UR GUNZ!!!111!!!one!!!eleventy!!!!!

[mnealtx 0]

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Your 0.7% number comes from a survey of convicted criminals. Why do you believe convicted criminals tell the truth?

They're already serving their time in prison for the crime, it was already known they had a gun - why would they need to lie about where they got it?

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The BATF data comes from gun traces.

Go re-read the BATF data declaration, where they talk about gun traces NOT being representative of use. Any LE department can ask for a trace for any reason whatsoever.

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Guns don't kill lie, criminals do.

So do physics professors - did you have a point?

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WHY do you support allowing felons (and other undesirables) to have easy access to guns DESPITE existing laws against it?

The only place I've supported that is in your fantasy world.

Why do YOU support going after 0.7% of guns vs. 80% of guns used in crime?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,117]

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Your 0.7% number comes from a survey of convicted criminals. Why do you believe convicted criminals tell the truth?

They're already serving their time in prison for the crime, it was already known they had a gun - why would they need to lie about where they got it?

The answer to that is obvious.

It also only applies to those that (a) were caught, (b) charged and brought to trial, (c) convicted, and (d) sentenced to prison.

So in addition to the lying factor (for reasons that are obvious to anyone with more than 1/2 a brain), there are many opportunities for data selection bias.

Now, why do you want felons to have easy access to guns, Mike?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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So in addition to the lying factor (for reasons that are obvious to anyone with more than 1/2 a brain), there are many opportunities for data selection bias.

And speaking of selection bias, a tidbit from the ATF that you oh-so-conveniently ignore:

"The firearms selected do not constitute a random sample and should not be considered representative of the larger universe of all firearms used by criminals, or any subset of that universe."

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Now, why do you want felons to have easy access to guns, Mike?

Why do you want the felons to keep 80% of their guns, John?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[akarunway 1]

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Your 0.7% number comes from a survey of convicted criminals. Why do you believe convicted criminals tell the truth?

They're already serving their time in prison for the crime, it was already known they had a gun - why would they need to lie about where they got it?

The answer to that is obvious.

It also only applies to those that (a) were caught, (b) charged and brought to trial, (c) convicted, and (d) sentenced to prison.

So in addition to the lying factor (for reasons that are obvious to anyone with more than 1/2 a brain), there are many opportunities for data selection bias.

Now, why do you want felons to have easy access to guns, Mike?

So lets say a person got caught w/ pot in the wrong state and is a convicted felon. He should not be allowed to own a firearm? Damn. Might shoot himself in the foot.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[TankBuster 0]

Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.
But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property, you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

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It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.

Agreed.

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But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property

With the exception of Vermont and Alaska, get caught carrying that hogleg around on public property without one and see what happens.

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you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

Your requirement for NICS checks for all transfers does the equivalent of both of those.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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So lets say a person got caught w/ pot in the wrong state and is a convicted felon. He should not be allowed to own a firearm? Damn.

Correct. It matters not whether the crime was violent or not. All that counts is that it was a felony. And that's enough to deny you gun rights for the rest of your life. So, an 18-year-old girl who gets caught embezzling money out of a cash register, can never own a gun for self-protection for the remainder of her life, even though she has no propensity to violence.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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With the exception of Vermont and Alaska, get caught carrying that hogleg around on public property without one and see what happens.

I have spent time at publicly owned shooting ranges and hunting lands in many states and was never asked for a license other than the same hunting license needed for hunting on private land.

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Your requirement for NICS checks for all transfers does the equivalent of both of those.

In a way, yes. But it doesn't require a title to be signed and transefered from the seller to the buyer, nor does it require sales taxes be paid on private transfer.
You already accept far more restrictions on buying/selling a car than have been proposed for guns.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[TankBuster 0]

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Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.
But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property, you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

It's not necessary that I conceal my car if I desire to off a bunch of people with it. Matter of fact, given the right conditions I could injure/kill more with the car.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.
But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property, you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

It's not necessary that I conceal my car if I desire to off a bunch of people with it. Matter of fact, given the right conditions I could injure/kill more with the car.

Absolutely 100% true! But we don't see a lot of that happening, do we?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kallend 2,117]

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Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.
But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property, you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

It's not necessary that I conceal my car if I desire to off a bunch of people with it. Matter of fact, given the right conditions I could injure/kill more with the car.

That's as maybe. However, guns are the instrument of choice for murder in the USA. TWICE as many murders committed with guns than ALL others combined, according to the FBI. Also robberies are generally committed using guns rather than, say, swimming pools.

So when it comes to setting priorities, it's pretty clear what needs to be addressed first.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TankBuster 0]

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Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.
But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property, you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

It's not necessary that I conceal my car if I desire to off a bunch of people with it. Matter of fact, given the right conditions I could injure/kill more with the car.

That's as maybe. However, guns are the instrument of choice for murder in the USA. TWICE as many murders committed with guns than ALL others combined, according to the FBI. Also robberies are generally committed using guns rather than, say, swimming pools.

So when it comes to setting priorities, it's pretty clear what needs to be addressed first.

The original idea was keeping dangerous items out of the hands of people with psych problems. Murderers and robbers are usually only resorting to those activities because they are downtrodden and haven't been properly educated/coddled by the government.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[TankBuster 0]

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Certainly, then, you are in favor of background checks before being allowed to purchase a car. He could easily go bonkers and drive through a crowd of school kids.

It's a little hard to conceal a car in your waistband.
But, on the other hand, you are not required to get a license to use your gun on public property, you don't have to pay sales tax on it every time it changes hands, there is no title to transfer,....

It's not necessary that I conceal my car if I desire to off a bunch of people with it. Matter of fact, given the right conditions I could injure/kill more with the car.

Absolutely 100% true! But we don't see a lot of that happening, do we?

I think that's subject to debate. If I had time to pull some stats on road rage as it contributes to accidents/fatalities, we might surprised. I'd posit that unstable individuals are responsible for a large number of traffic deaths. Just harder to prove, and much less visible.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[mnealtx 0]

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With the exception of Vermont and Alaska, get caught carrying that hogleg around on public property without one and see what happens.

I have spent time at publicly owned shooting ranges and hunting lands in many states and was never asked for a license other than the same hunting license needed for hunting on private land.

Way to miss the point.

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Your requirement for NICS checks for all transfers does the equivalent of both of those.

In a way, yes. But it doesn't require a title to be signed and transefered from the seller to the buyer,

NICS record.

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nor does it require sales taxes be paid on private transfer.

Dealers usually charge a fee to do a NICS check.

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You already accept far more restrictions on buying/selling a car than have been proposed for guns.

If I sell a gun or a car to someone else, there's no taxes and no paperwork required besides signing over the title (or making a simple bill of sale, for the gun).

Are you saying we should treat guns like cars?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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With the exception of Vermont and Alaska, get caught carrying that hogleg around on public property without one and see what happens.

I have spent time at publicly owned shooting ranges and hunting lands in many states and was never asked for a license other than the same hunting license needed for hunting on private land.

Way to miss the point.

No, that was my point. You evidently missed the point when you responded. For the most part, a license is not required to use a firearm on public property. To operate a car on public property a license IS required in virtually all instances.

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Your requirement for NICS checks for all transfers does the equivalent of both of those.

In a way, yes. But it doesn't require a title to be signed and transefered from the seller to the buyer,

NICS record.

That is not even in the same category as having to have a physical title that needs to be signed and, in some states, notarized for transfer and then registered with the state. Not even close.

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nor does it require sales taxes be paid on private transfer.

Dealers usually charge a fee to do a NICS check.

Sure, but it is not required. There is no reason the check even has to have a fee associated with it.

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You already accept far more restrictions on buying/selling a car than have been proposed for guns.

If I sell a gun or a car to someone else, there's no taxes and no paperwork required besides signing over the title (or making a simple bill of sale, for the gun).

Are you saying we should treat guns like cars?

No taxes required to be paid by the seller, but taxes are required to be paid by the buyer when they transfer the title into their name, something that has to be done to get plates and be able to use it on public roads.
No, I am not suggesting we treat guns like cars. All I am suggesting is that background checks be made on all firearm transactions since gun owners have proven to be inable and/or unwilling to take the responsibility of doing so voluntarily. To quote every NRA firearm safety instructor, "Guns are not toys". Time to stop treating them as such.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

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Way to miss the point.

No, that was my point. You evidently missed the point when you responded. For the most part, a license is not required to use a firearm on public property. To operate a car on public property a license IS required in virtually all instances.

So, your point was that you didn't need a license to have a gun on a very small percentage of public property. No problem.

Do you think you can manage to think a bit bigger than the local shooting range in regards to your "don't need a license" spiel, or should I just bow out of the argument now?

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NICS record.

That is not even in the same category as having to have a physical title that needs to be signed and, in some states, notarized for transfer and then registered with the state. Not even close.

Still a record that is kept by the government, so yes, it *IS* in the same category.

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nor does it require sales taxes be paid on private transfer.

Dealers usually charge a fee to do a NICS check.

Sure, but it is not required. There is no reason the check even has to have a fee associated with it.

So, the dealer should take time from HIS business to phone in a NICS check for someone else, for free? Yeah, that makes sense.

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If I sell a gun or a car to someone else, there's no taxes and no paperwork required besides signing over the title (or making a simple bill of sale, for the gun).

No taxes required to be paid by the seller, but taxes are required to be paid by the buyer when they transfer the title into their name, something that has to be done to get plates and be able to use it on public roads.

Nope - gotta pay for the plates, that's it. At least, that was it the last several times I bought used vehicles.

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Are you saying we should treat guns like cars?

No, I am not suggesting we treat guns like cars. All I am suggesting is that background checks be made on all firearm transactions since gun owners have proven to be inable and/or unwilling to take the responsibility of doing so voluntarily.

And where do you get that info from, pray tell. I know of several gun owners that have done exactly that - paid out of pocket to have a NICS check run on a buyer. You want to support a national 'all NICS' law, go right ahead - the criminals will STILL be getting 80% of their guns from illegal sources or friends/family.

But, since we're on that whole 'responsibility' kick, maybe you can give me an answer as to just HOW long I'm supposed to be responsible for YOUR use of an object?

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To quote every NRA firearm safety instructor, "Guns are not toys". Time to stop treating them as such.

Gun owners are not children. Time to stop treating them as such.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

-Ever hear of BLM lands?

-No, it is NOT the same category. NICS checks on the person, not the gun. No need for any serial numbers, etc. to be logged. No need for record other than the fact that somebody ran a backgraound check on somebody else. Don't even need to show the transaction was even completed.

-You are assuming it would be done through a dealer. Think a bit broader and include local police and courts.

-Every time I've bought a car in had to pay sales tax when i transfered the title to my name. Even if you don't have to, there is still the requirement to get plates, something NOT required with firearms.

-Sure, there are those who do take their responsibility seriously. But far too many don't.
You eveidently have either not read my posts, have forgotten the main point, or are just ignoring them. I have said, and still do, that as long as the seller runs a background check on the buyer and the buyer passes, the sellers responsiblity ends at the time of sale....period. No check or sale if buyer is denied = continued responsibility.
As long as that minority insists upon acting like children and refuse to take the responsibility that comes with selling a gun seriously then the whole will be treated like children.

-So you think it is ok to take the attitude that they will get their guns anyway so why try to stop them? With that attitude we may as well just eliminate all laws and exist in a state of anarchy.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

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-Ever hear of BLM lands?

Ok, so you're going to completely disregard 90% of the land mass in order to pursue your point - gotcha.

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-No, it is NOT the same category. NICS checks on the person, not the gun. No need for any serial numbers, etc. to be logged. No need for record other than the fact that somebody ran a backgraound check on somebody else. Don't even need to show the transaction was even completed.

Wrong - see section D of ATF form 4473.

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-You are assuming it would be done through a dealer. Think a bit broader and include local police and courts.

And you're assuming that THEY won't charge a fee.

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-Every time I've bought a car in had to pay sales tax when i transfered the title to my name. Even if you don't have to, there is still the requirement to get plates, something NOT required with firearms.

Unless, of course, you want to carry it outside of the BLM lands and gun ranges that evidently are the limits of your world - the rest of us need a license of some sort, absent a very few exceptions like Vermont and Alaska.

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-Sure, there are those who do take their responsibility seriously. But far too many don't.

Stats, please.

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You eveidently have either not read my posts, have forgotten the main point, or are just ignoring them. I have said, and still do, that as long as the seller runs a background check on the buyer and the buyer passes, the sellers responsiblity ends at the time of sale....period. No check or sale if buyer is denied = continued responsibility.

Well, in that case, I think they should be doing background checks for household chemicals, cars, private planes, baseball bats, axes, etc etc etc...right? I mean, some criminal could get hold of them and kill someone with it, so it's the only RESPONSIBLE thing to do.

Especially cars, with the 40+ THOUSAND people killed by them each year.

Speaking of the checks... if there was no NIC check ran on the Pentagon gun sale, HOW did ATF know it was a private sale at the gunshow?

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As long as that minority insists upon acting like children and refuse to take the responsibility that comes with selling a gun seriously then the whole will be treated like children.

Maybe you can show us the LAW that requires that EXTRA responsibility, since state and federal law ALREADY make it illegal to sell to someone that is barred from ownership?

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-So you think it is ok to take the attitude that they will get their guns anyway so why try to stop them?

Show where I've said that. Makes a nice 'kallend argument', though.

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With that attitude we may as well just eliminate all laws and exist in a state of anarchy.

Well, you seem to think that the gun owners are evidently just throwing them out the windows of their cars to any passerby, so I'm not too surprised you think that is the alternative.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706