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However, all a felon has to do is go to a gun show in VA, MN, (or many others) where NO checking is done on sales by unlicensed dealers.



You're either a licensed dealer or a private seller - there *IS* no such thing as an 'unlicensed dealer'.

That may be where your continuing confusion on the matter comes from.



No such thing as an unlicensed driver, either, by that reasoning. Apparently all you can rely on now is semantics since I've shown that

1. there is an existing law against selling guns to certain classes of people (felons, etc.),

2. that there is an easy way for felons to circumvent this law (a "loophole"),

3. that said loophole can be closed (and has been in some states), and

4. that the gun lobby still opposes attempts in other states to close it. (Cites provided)

And Mike, your repeated denials simply reinforce my position.
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No such thing as an unlicensed driver, either, by that reasoning. Apparently all you can rely on now is semantics





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1. there is an existing law against selling guns to certain classes of people (felons, etc.),



Correct - for once.

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2. that there is an easy way for felons to circumvent this law (a "loophole"),



Provide cite to the federal law that requires a NIC check for private sales.

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3. that said loophole can be closed (and has been in some states), and



State law != federal law.

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4. that the gun lobby still opposes attempts in other states to close it. (Cites provided)



That would be the NRA and local analogues that you claim was 'my projection', yes?

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And Mike, your repeated denials simply reinforce my position.



No, they just show the hypocrisy between whining about the 0.7 percent of crime guns bought at gunshows and doing NOTHING about the 79.8 percent aquired from friends, family or street sources.

But then again, we really don't expect any better of you, since you really don't care about the issue except the publicity of it.

So, now that you have your latest whine out of the way, how about showing how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of existing law?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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No such thing as an unlicensed driver, either, by that reasoning. Apparently all you can rely on now is semantics





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1. there is an existing law against selling guns to certain classes of people (felons, etc.),



Correct - for once.

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2. that there is an easy way for felons to circumvent this law (a "loophole"),



Provide cite to the federal law that requires a NIC check for private sales.

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Not relevant in the slightest to the point in question.



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3. that said loophole can be closed (and has been in some states), and



State law != federal law.


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NOT RELEVANT IN THE SLIGHTEST TO THE POINT IN QUESTION.




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4. that the gun lobby still opposes attempts in other states to close it. (Cites provided)



That would be the NRA and local analogues that you claim was 'my projection', yes?

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And Mike, your repeated denials simply reinforce my position.



No, they just show the hypocrisy between whining about the 0.7 percent of crime guns bought at gunshows and doing NOTHING about the 79.8 percent aquired from friends, family or street sources.



Not according to the BATF (cite provided), take it up with them.

From the BATF report:

"A prior review of ATF gun show investigations shows that prohibited persons, such as convicted felons and juveniles, do personally buy firearms at gun shows and gun shows are sources of firearms that are trafficked to such prohibited persons. The gun show review found that firearms were diverted at and through gun shows by straw purchasers, unregulated private sellers, and licensed dealers. Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations. Firearms that were illegally diverted at or through gun shows were recovered in subsequent crimes, including homicide and robbery, in more than a third of the gun show investigations."



The poverty of your position is clearly shown by your having to resort to semantics, to irrelevancies, and to surveys that depend on the honesty of criminals. *rolls eyes*
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2. that there is an easy way for felons to circumvent this law (a "loophole"),



Provide cite to the federal law that requires a NIC check for private sales.



Not relevant in the slightest to the point in question.



Absolutely relevant, since you are talking about a supposed loophole in a FEDERAL law.

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3. that said loophole can be closed (and has been in some states), and



State law != federal law.




NOT RELEVANT IN THE SLIGHTEST TO THE POINT IN QUESTION.



Absolutely relevant, since you are talking about a supposed loophole in a FEDERAL law.

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And Mike, your repeated denials simply reinforce my position.



No, they just show the hypocrisy between whining about the 0.7 percent of crime guns bought at gunshows and doing NOTHING about the 79.8 percent aquired from friends, family or street sources.



Not according to the BATF (cite provided), take it up with them.



True, according to DOJ Bureau of Statistics. Take it up with them.

We're still waiting on you to show how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of the law as you originally claimed. Planning on doing that anytime soon, or are you going to admit that was a lie, too?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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The study you cite repeatedly depends on the HONESTY of CONVICTED CRIMINALS:D:D:D *rolls eyes*. I wonder how many of them also said they were "not guilty". The BATF study traced the guns, which don't lie.

Mike, your wriggling and twisting just proves that I am correct.

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When are you planning on showing how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of existing law, John?



Asked and answered previously. Austin (TX), MN, and VA for starters. Also check on gun lobby opposition to H.R. 2324, and S. 843
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So I was completely correct in my original statement.



John, when you say as much nothing as you do, people just stop caring if you think you're right.



Irony score 10/10
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When are you planning on showing how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of existing law, John?



Asked and answered previously. Austin (TX), MN, and VA for starters. Also check on gun lobby opposition to H.R. 2324, and S. 843



Still unanswered, and oppositing to NEW law != 'preventing the enforcement of existing law' that you claimed.

"Enforcement of EXISTING laws", John - so simple, even a physics professor *should* be able to understand it.

Prove it.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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When are you planning on showing how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of existing law, John?



Asked and answered previously. Austin (TX), MN, and VA for starters. Also check on gun lobby opposition to H.R. 2324, and S. 843



Still unanswered, and oppositing to NEW law != 'preventing the enforcement of existing law' that you claimed.

"Enforcement of EXISTING laws", John - so simple, even a physics professor *should* be able to understand it.

Prove it.



NEW laws are needed because enforcement of the existing law against selling guns to felons etc., is so easily circumvented on account of the LOOPHOLE. The gun lobby opposes closing the loophole while at the same time taking the contradictory positioin that it doesn't exist.

QED

Your semantic games are just stupid.
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When are you planning on showing how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of existing law, John?



Asked and answered previously. Austin (TX), MN, and VA for starters. Also check on gun lobby opposition to H.R. 2324, and S. 843



Still unanswered, and oppositing to NEW law != 'preventing the enforcement of existing law' that you claimed.

"Enforcement of EXISTING laws", John - so simple, even a physics professor *should* be able to understand it.

Prove it.



NEW laws are needed because enforcement of the existing law against selling guns to felons etc., is so easily circumvented. The gun lobby opposes the new laws.

Your semantic games are just stupid.



YOU are the one that made the claim, quit lying and trying to call it semantics games when you get called out to prove it.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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When are you planning on showing how the gun lobby is preventing enforcement of existing law, John?



Asked and answered previously. Austin (TX), MN, and VA for starters. Also check on gun lobby opposition to H.R. 2324, and S. 843



Still unanswered, and oppositing to NEW law != 'preventing the enforcement of existing law' that you claimed.

"Enforcement of EXISTING laws", John - so simple, even a physics professor *should* be able to understand it.

Prove it.



NEW laws are needed because enforcement of the existing law against selling guns to felons etc., is so easily circumvented. The gun lobby opposes the new laws.

Your semantic games are just stupid.



YOU are the one that made the claim, quit lying and trying to call it semantics games when you get called out to prove it.



All you have is semantics and a survey based on the assumption that criminals don't lie.

There IS a loophole that allows felons and other undesirables to circumvent the law. It CAN be closed. The gun lobby opposes all efforts to close it.
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All you have is semantics and a survey based on the assumption that criminals don't lie.



"Preventing enforcement of EXISTING laws"

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There IS a loophole that allows felons and other undesirables to circumvent the law.



By all means, show us how those felons are getting guns from licensed dealers without a NICS check, then.

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It CAN be closed. The gun lobby opposes all efforts to close it.



Oh, so you were LYING when you whined over and over again about the 'gun lobby' blocking enforcement of EXISTING law?

We already knew that, but it's nice to see you finally admit it.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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NEW laws are needed because enforcement of the existing law against selling guns to felons etc., is so easily circumvented on account of the LOOPHOLE. The gun lobby opposes closing the loophole while at the same time taking the contradictory positioin that it doesn't exist.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loophole

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loop·hole
n.

1.

A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.



is there a specific way of escaping a difficulty that refers to gunshows? No. The "loophole" you continue to refer to is that a private citizen can sell personal property without a NICS check. (in many states) When asked, you replied that gunshows are where many of those transactions take place. The "loophole" is only tangentially related to gunshows, and directly related to the fact that the person selling the weapon does not do so frequently (different states define "dealer" differently, but it's common to consider frequency) and is not a "dealer" who must be registered through BATF.

so without having proposed a solution, you leave us to assume you want all firearm transactions registered at a federal level. (gun registration) Or as you've said that the WA law regarding gun show purchases is a good one, we must also assume you would like gun owners to be federally licensed.
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I have clarified my meaning over and over again. The EXISTING law is the one that prohibits sales of guns to certain undesirable persons. The loophole is the process by which these undesirables can avoid a NICS check. It is well defined even if you wish to deny it. You even admitted that it is a problem in a post that you subsequently deleted.

If you and Mike can't get over the semantics, then you are just being childish.
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All you have is semantics and a survey based on the assumption that criminals don't lie.



"Preventing enforcement of EXISTING laws"

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There IS a loophole that allows felons and other undesirables to circumvent the law.



By all means, show us how those felons are getting guns from licensed dealers without a NICS check, then.

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It CAN be closed. The gun lobby opposes all efforts to close it.



Oh, so you were LYING when you whined over and over again about the 'gun lobby' blocking enforcement of EXISTING law?

We already knew that, but it's nice to see you finally admit it.



Childish semantic argument. My meaning is and always has been clear.
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The loophole is the process by which these undesirables can avoid a NICS check.



You still haven't shown how the criminals are avoiding NICS checks by licensed dealers - going to do that anytime soon?

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It is well defined even if you wish to deny it.



Only in your rich fantasy life.

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You even admitted that it is a problem in a post that you subsequently deleted.



Probably after he realized the bullshit you were trying to pass off as a 'loophole'.

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If you and Mike can't get over the semantics, then you are just being childish.



"Preventing the enforcement of EXISTING laws"
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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The loophole is the process by which these undesirables can avoid a NICS check.



You still haven't shown how the criminals are avoiding NICS checks by licensed dealers - going to do that anytime soon?

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It is well defined even if you wish to deny it.



Only in your rich fantasy life.

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You even admitted that it is a problem in a post that you subsequently deleted.



Probably after he realized the bullshit you were trying to pass off as a 'loophole'.

Quote

If you and Mike can't get over the semantics, then you are just being childish.



"Preventing the enforcement of EXISTING laws"
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I've never denied there is a loophole. I've denied that that loophole has anything to do with gun shows.





According to the BATF study on the sources of illegal guns that they traced, gun show purchases from unlicensed vendors were the 2nd biggest.

(Note to mnealtx: guns don't lie, criminals do)

We make progress, one small step at a time.
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"Preventing the enforcement of EXISTING laws"



The prohibition on selling guns to felons IS an existing law.

All you have is semantics, you don't have anything else.
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Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations.



Uh, you do realize that 46% of gun show investigations has absolutely no relation to 0.7% of guns used in crimes?



Umm - purchase of a gun by a felon IS a crime, chief.
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Felons were associated with selling or purchasing firearms in 46 percent of the gun show investigations.



Uh, you do realize that 46% of gun show investigations has absolutely no relation to 0.7% of guns used in crimes?



Umm - purchase of a gun by a felon IS a crime, chief.



In fact, a convicted felon is breaking the law merely by holding any firearm or even a single live round of ammunition...even a .22 rimfire cartridge.

I'm probably jumping into the fire by posting, but here goes.
The so-called "gunshow loophole" is not limited just to gunshows or linked to them except by way of private sellers. Anti-gunners want gunshows stopped, so instead of calling it a "private sale" loophole, which it is, they call it a "gunshow" loophole. Get gunshows banned first, then go after private sales. All without addressing the underlying problem. Private sellers should have the option of either running a FREE (to be provided by the Feds) background check on a prospective buyer or not. If he opts to run a check, and the buyer is cleared, then the seller should be relieved of all responsibility for what happens after that. If the seller chooses NOT to run a check, then he/she should be held at least partially responsible for anything that happens IF the buyer would have been turned away by a normal check.
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