Another victim WITHOUT a gun.

[mnealtx 0]

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Right, so saying there's already a law against straw purchase so we don't need to do anything more is absurd; enforcement of the law is pathetic. Yet the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists, all the while paying lip service to it.

Provide your cite - I don't believe you. Show where the NRA is blocking the hiring of police officers to enforce these existing laws that you support (once they're changed to suit you, that is).

First YOU show where I said the NRA is blocking the hiring of police officers.

Who else would be enforcing those laws you claim to support, perfesser?

Prove your claim.

So you can't find anything. OK.

So, you can't prove what turns out to be your latest LIE. OK.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,146]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

*rolls eyes*

Ah, yes... the fictional "gun show loophole". Figures.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,146]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

*rolls eyes*

Ah, yes... the fictional "gun show loophole". Figures.

Under the terms of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms).

Are you NOW trying to tell us that gunshow sales that don't involve a licensed dealer HAVE to have a NICS check?


*rolls eyes* twice.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

*rolls eyes*

Ah, yes... the fictional "gun show loophole". Figures.

Are you NOW trying to tell us that gunshow sales that don't involve a licensed dealer HAVE to have a NICS check?

*rolls eyes* twice.

From what I can recall of GCA '68 and FOPA, no private sales require a NICS check - hence your non-existent 'loophole'.

However, we can always count on your devotion to shutting off the tap of that whopping 0.7% of crime guns bought at gunshows (per DOJ studies), just as the criminals can count on your support for unarmed victim zones.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,146]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

*rolls eyes*

Ah, yes... the fictional "gun show loophole". Figures.

Are you NOW trying to tell us that gunshow sales that don't involve a licensed dealer HAVE to have a NICS check?

*rolls eyes* twice.

From what I can recall of GCA '68 and FOPA, no private sales require a NICS check - hence your non-existent 'loophole'.

.

You should study set theory. A subset of a loophole is also a loophole.

Anyway, thanks for conforming my original claim. It IS illegal for a felon to buy a gun, but the gun lobby has consistently opposed NICS checks on private sales (at gunshows or anywhere else).

QED, and thanks again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhaig 0]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

if you'll read carefully, I didn't claim anything. Perhaps english isn't your primary language. I don't know. All I asked you to do was support your claim. Now that you have listed an example, a counter example with backup information can be made. That is how adults argue son.

--
Rob

[mnealtx 0]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

*rolls eyes*

Ah, yes... the fictional "gun show loophole". Figures.

Are you NOW trying to tell us that gunshow sales that don't involve a licensed dealer HAVE to have a NICS check?

*rolls eyes* twice.

From what I can recall of GCA '68 and FOPA, no private sales require a NICS check - hence your non-existent 'loophole'.

.

You should study set theory. A subset of a loophole is also a loophole.

Anyway, thanks for conforming my original claim. It IS illegal for a felon to buy a gun, but the gun lobby has consistently opposed NICS checks on private sales (at gunshows or anywhere else).

QED, and thanks again.

So, when are you going to show how this non-existent 'loophole' is part of the 'existing law that NRA is blocking then enforcement of', like you were so URGENTLY whining about, above?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,146]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

*rolls eyes*

Ah, yes... the fictional "gun show loophole". Figures.

Are you NOW trying to tell us that gunshow sales that don't involve a licensed dealer HAVE to have a NICS check?

*rolls eyes* twice.

From what I can recall of GCA '68 and FOPA, no private sales require a NICS check - hence your non-existent 'loophole'.

.

You should study set theory. A subset of a loophole is also a loophole.

Anyway, thanks for conforming my original claim. It IS illegal for a felon to buy a gun, but the gun lobby has consistently opposed NICS checks on private sales (at gunshows or anywhere else).

QED, and thanks again.

So, when are you going to show how this non-existent 'loophole' is part of the 'existing law that NRA is blocking then enforcement of', like you were so URGENTLY whining about, above?

It is only non-existent if you redefine the meaning of "loophole", which you do consistently. However, just for you I'll refrain from using the word that upsets you so much.

Fact is, a felon can buy a gun and avoid a NICS check by going to a gun show and buying from an unlicensed seller. This method of circumventing the existing law prohibiting the sale of a gun to a felon EXISTS, and continues to exist because the gun lobby has opposed all attempts to extend the NICS check to cover such sales.

QED.

I guess you've missed the extreme irony in your responses on this (maybe I have to explain it to you).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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So, when are you going to show how this non-existent 'loophole' is part of the 'existing law that NRA is blocking then enforcement of', like you were so URGENTLY whining about, above?

It is only non-existent if you redefine the meaning of "loophole", which you do consistently. However, just for you I'll refrain from using the word that upsets you so much.

Show me the federal law that requires a NICS check for private sales, then. No law, no 'loophole'.

Of course, you have YET to show how the NRA is blocking enforcement of this non-existent law - planning on getting around to that anytime soon?

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Fact is, a felon can buy a gun and avoid a NICS check by going to a gun show and buying from an unlicensed seller. This method of circumventing the existing law prohibiting the sale of a gun to a felon EXISTS, and continues to exist because the gun lobby has opposed all attempts to extend the NICS check to cover such sales.

Prove your cite. While you're at it, maybe you can show where the Feds have arrested the 750 THOUSAND people that were denied NICS (FBI stats), since attempting to buy a gun while barred is a felony offense as I recall, and since NICS is so important to you.

Oh, wait - I'm sorry, I forgot that whining about the provenance of 0.7 percent of crime guns is much more important.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rhaig 0]

a felon (or anyone for that matter) can avoid a NICS check by buying a gun directly from a private individual.

It has zero to do with gun shows. Requiring a NICS check for gun sales at gun shows will only relocate the transaction site.

--
Rob

[kallend 2,146]

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a felon (or anyone for that matter) can avoid a NICS check by buying a gun directly from a private individual.

.

QED, Thank you.

And the most likely place to find such a person selling guns is..... A GUNSHOW.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms and Explosives. Following the Gun: Enforcing
Federal Law Against Firearms Traffickers. Washington, D.C.: Department of the Treasury, 2000;

14% of traced guns that had been used in crimes were purchased at gunshows without a NICS check.

Another 21% from other unlicensed sellers, with no NICS check.

Another 46% from other straw purchases.

That's a lot of criminals buying guns from people who bought them legally, and doing it almost unhindered because people JUST LIKE YOU argue that there's no loophole.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

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so you agree that the actual problem isn't one of gunshows but one of laws around transfer of private property?

Thank you.

And you agree that there is a problem.

Thank you.


Edited to ask - why did you delete your post?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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please support your argument by showing where "the gun lobby continues to oppose any measures that will enable better enforcement of a law that already exists".

Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

Your statement was that the NRA opposes any measure. So far, you're only discussing one, the lack of NICS check on private sales. Now cover all the others...you can't support your false claim on the basis of this one alone.

[mnealtx 0]

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Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms and Explosives. Following the Gun: Enforcing
Federal Law Against Firearms Traffickers. Washington, D.C.: Department of the Treasury, 2000;

14% of traced guns that had been used in crimes were purchased at gunshows without a NICS check.

If there was no NICS check, how can they tell it was sold at the gun show?

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Another 21% from other unlicensed sellers, with no NICS check required by Federal law.

Fixed that for you.

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Another 46% from other straw purchases.

Straw purchase is buying a gun for someone that is barred from purchase - show me the arrests.

Meanwhile:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Report, US DOJ 2002:

Source of gun:

Friends/family: 39.6%
Street/illegal source: 39.2%
Purchased from gunshow: 0.7%

QED.

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That's a lot of criminals buying guns from people who bought them legally, and doing it almost unhindered because people JUST LIKE YOU argue that there's no loophole.

What happened to your argument about NRA blocking the enforcement, John? Going to prove that at some point?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,146]

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Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms and Explosives. Following the Gun: Enforcing
Federal Law Against Firearms Traffickers. Washington, D.C.: Department of the Treasury, 2000;

14% of traced guns that had been used in crimes were purchased at gunshows without a NICS check.

If there was no NICS check, how can they tell it was sold at the gun show?

Ask BATF, it's their study.

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Another 21% from other unlicensed sellers, with no NICS check required by Federal law.

Fixed that for you.

THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT

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Another 46% from other straw purchases.

Straw purchase is buying a gun for someone that is barred from purchase - show me the arrests.

ASK BATF, it's their study.

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Meanwhile:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Report, US DOJ 2002:

Source of gun:

Friends/family: 39.6%
Street/illegal source: 39.2%
Purchased from gunshow: 0.7%

QED.

Making my point again, thank you.

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That's a lot of criminals buying guns from people who bought them legally, and doing it almost unhindered because people JUST LIKE YOU argue that there's no loophole.

What happened to your argument about NRA blocking the enforcement, John? Going to prove that at some point?

Having the old reading comprehension problem again, I see.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Another 21% from other unlicensed sellers, with no NICS check required by Federal law.

Fixed that for you.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

John, in the State of Washington you must be a dues paying member of the gun show organization to actually purchase a firearm at the shows. To become a member, you must pass the same background check as required to purchase a handgun. You are then issued a photo ID card that has to be presented when you purchase any firearm, even a rifle or shotgun. There is no loophole in Washington gun shows.

[rushmc 23]

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Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

John, in the State of Washington you must be a dues paying member of the gun show organization to actually purchase a firearm at the shows. To become a member, you must pass the same background check as required to purchase a handgun. You are then issued a photo ID card that has to be presented when you purchase any firearm, even a rifle or shotgun. There is no loophole in Washington gun shows.

In Iowa you must show a permit to purchase a handgun to buy privatley
No loop hole here either

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnMitchell 16]

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In Iowa you must show a permit to purchase a handgun to buy privatley

I do the same thing when I sell privately, although our state law doesn't require it. It is illegal to sell to someone whom you know is prohibited by law from owning firearms.

[rushmc 23]

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In Iowa you must show a permit to purchase a handgun to buy privatley

I do the same thing when I sell privately, although our state law doesn't require it. It is illegal to sell to someone whom you know is prohibited by law from owning firearms.

Yes

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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It is illegal to sell to someone whom you know is prohibited by law from owning firearms.

I would be surprised if ANY state doesn't have laws prohibiting it - I know Texas does.

Even though there's no requirement to do so, I've heard many people mention that they do the transaction at a dealer (or dealer table, at a gunshow) and have a NICS check done (even though there's no requirement to do so for a private sale), paying the dealer a small fee for the transaction.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

John, in the State of Washington you must be a dues paying member of the gun show organization to actually purchase a firearm at the shows. To become a member, you must pass the same background check as required to purchase a handgun. You are then issued a photo ID card that has to be presented when you purchase any firearm, even a rifle or shotgun. There is no loophole in Washington gun shows.

Oh shush..... are you trying to confuse the poor folk who think there are all these loopholes out there for criminals to get guns?

How dare you to state the painfully obvious facts that fly in the face of all the fear mongering about all the gun totin folk out here.

[kallend 2,146]

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Are you trying to claim that the gun lobby supports closing the loophole that allows private purchases at, for example, gunshows to go without a NICS check? Last time I checked it was illegal to sell a gun to a felon, but no checking is required thanks to opposition by the gun lobby.

John, in the State of Washington you must be a dues paying member of the gun show organization to actually purchase a firearm at the shows. To become a member, you must pass the same background check as required to purchase a handgun. You are then issued a photo ID card that has to be presented when you purchase any firearm, even a rifle or shotgun. There is no loophole in Washington gun shows.

So the felons drive across the state line to Idaho? (Washington is not the entire USA).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.