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wolfriverjoe 1,523
Quote
You already have a choice. Feel free to send your children to a private school or take them to Ken Ham's Creation Museum any time you feel like. Science class is for teaching science, not ridiculous religious dogma pretending to be science.
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Evolution IS ridiculous religious dogma. It is a theory, not a proven scientific fact. The fact that so many people believe it IS a proven fact illustrates my point. You have been brainwashed.
I am open-minded: I want both sides presented so students can be better equipped to make up their own minds.
You are narrow-minded & intolerant: You want one side taught (falsly) as fact.
And I don't have a choice. Attendance is mandatory and my money is being confiscated at gunpoint to support a system that rams a one-sided discussion of the issue down my kids' throats.
Please tell me you're just being funny, that you're really not too dense to understand this.
Cheers,
Jon
Evolution (as an overall process) is a fact. It's been proven that genes mutate, and that isolation will produce divergence.
Proven as fact.
The overall evolution of man (and all animals) is indeed a theory. It can never be proven as fact because it is past history as best we can figure out from a very incomplete fossil record. But all the new discoveries fit (reasonably) neatly into known facts and so reinforce the theory.
But there's a big difference between a solid theory and religious dogma.
Relativity is only a theory, but GPS couldn't be made to work until the relativistic diallations were accounted for to allow the time computations to be accurate enough.
And I don't know the rules in Georgia, but although school attendance is mandatory, where the kids go to school has a lot of latitude. Private schools, parochial schools, even home schooling are all options around here.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
pirana 0
You are several decades behind on the topic. Evolution is proven scientific fact; natural selection as a means of propogation of beneficial traits is a theory (and a very good one at that since observations fit very well with it).
On the other had, creation does not accomodate for the observations made.
Suggested reading:
Genome
It's Just A Theory
On the other had, creation does not accomodate for the observations made.
Suggested reading:
Genome
It's Just A Theory
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
kallend 2,117
Quote>Funny, isn't it, how so many people scoffed at the concept back when the book was written.
Like who? One of my English professors was telling us back in 1983 that "1984 is here." I don't know of anyone who "scoffed at the concept."
OK, but the book was written in 1948, not 1983. Even I have only vague memories of 1948, and I doubt you have any at all.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
lurch 0
Wow you're right Airman.
I'm going to demand that my kids be taught about the Stork in sex ed as an "alternative theory" to the facts of human sexual reproduction so that they get to see "both sides of the debate".
Right now only one side, that babies come from people having sex, is being falsely taught as fact. Thats just theory, not a proven fact, I want my kids to be open minded and consider alternative viewpoints.
The reason your kids are being taught evolution against your will is because the educated people of the world recognize that some people would happily and willfully keep their kids ignorant with the kind of stone age silliness you would teach them. It is bad mental hygiene and is not tolerated in an intelligent society.
Its one of the few things I think our educational system got right.
Protest all you like, your religious views will not be given the dignity of being treated as if they had equal credibility to the known facts of the origins and development of life. Your view does not represent an "alternative viewpoint". It represents pure ignorance, and it is laughed at by those sophisticated enough to know better.
-B
I'm going to demand that my kids be taught about the Stork in sex ed as an "alternative theory" to the facts of human sexual reproduction so that they get to see "both sides of the debate".
Right now only one side, that babies come from people having sex, is being falsely taught as fact. Thats just theory, not a proven fact, I want my kids to be open minded and consider alternative viewpoints.
The reason your kids are being taught evolution against your will is because the educated people of the world recognize that some people would happily and willfully keep their kids ignorant with the kind of stone age silliness you would teach them. It is bad mental hygiene and is not tolerated in an intelligent society.
Its one of the few things I think our educational system got right.
Protest all you like, your religious views will not be given the dignity of being treated as if they had equal credibility to the known facts of the origins and development of life. Your view does not represent an "alternative viewpoint". It represents pure ignorance, and it is laughed at by those sophisticated enough to know better.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.
billvon 3,089
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>Evolution IS ridiculous religious dogma. It is a theory, not a proven scientific fact.
We have seen species evolve both in the lab and in the wild. The beer you drink, the drugs you take, the risks you face in a hospital, the genetic diseases your children risk are all results of evolution. We can count the genetic markers back to our most common recent ancestors, and the molecular clocks agree. We have found transitional fossils demonstrating how a species evolved from one form into another. We can find the genetic evidence of earlier stages of evolution hidden within the dormant sections of our genes. We can also find the common genes (like the homeobox genes) that one of our common ancestors evolved - and today nearly every animal shares those exact same genes, because they worked.
Any argument against evolution invariably devolves to one of two arguments:
1) Argument from dogma. "I will go to hell if I believe in evolution, therefore I must not." A purely religious argument.
2) Argument from personal incredulity. "I do not understand evolution; therefore no one understands evolution." That's a very limiting argument. If we didn't teach subjects unless parents understood them, our children would be poorly educated indeed.
That's why we present evolution in public schools - to fight ignorance and better prepare children for life in the real world, where life evolves.
>I am open-minded: I want both sides presented so students can
>be better equipped to make up their own minds.
You have failed to state why you think there are only two sides. What about the Norse creation myth? If you really believe children should make up their own minds, why not teach the Norse, Scientologist, Hindu and Islam versions of creation and let them make up their own minds?
Of course you'd have to do the same with the rest of science class. Teach the flat-earth and round-earth theory. Teach both the Newtonian theory of gravitation and the "God's pushing on us" theory of gravitation. You'd have to teach the standard model of astronomy and the biblical "spherical firmament supporting the stars." In history, you'd have to teach that Taliban terrorists blew up the WTC - and that Bush blew up the WTC by planting explosives there. Let kids make up their own minds.
Like I said, choose your kids own education and you can teach them all the above. But in public school they're getting taught the facts as best we know them, not conspiracy theories or religious dogma.
>And I don't have a choice. Attendance is mandatory . . . .
No, it's not. I went to a private high school where they taught an hour of religion class every day. (And evolution in biology class.) You could do the same with your children. You could even homeschool them if you could be bothered.
Or you could choose not to, in which case you should look in the mirror to find the person to blame for your dilemma.
We have seen species evolve both in the lab and in the wild. The beer you drink, the drugs you take, the risks you face in a hospital, the genetic diseases your children risk are all results of evolution. We can count the genetic markers back to our most common recent ancestors, and the molecular clocks agree. We have found transitional fossils demonstrating how a species evolved from one form into another. We can find the genetic evidence of earlier stages of evolution hidden within the dormant sections of our genes. We can also find the common genes (like the homeobox genes) that one of our common ancestors evolved - and today nearly every animal shares those exact same genes, because they worked.
Any argument against evolution invariably devolves to one of two arguments:
1) Argument from dogma. "I will go to hell if I believe in evolution, therefore I must not." A purely religious argument.
2) Argument from personal incredulity. "I do not understand evolution; therefore no one understands evolution." That's a very limiting argument. If we didn't teach subjects unless parents understood them, our children would be poorly educated indeed.
That's why we present evolution in public schools - to fight ignorance and better prepare children for life in the real world, where life evolves.
>I am open-minded: I want both sides presented so students can
>be better equipped to make up their own minds.
You have failed to state why you think there are only two sides. What about the Norse creation myth? If you really believe children should make up their own minds, why not teach the Norse, Scientologist, Hindu and Islam versions of creation and let them make up their own minds?
Of course you'd have to do the same with the rest of science class. Teach the flat-earth and round-earth theory. Teach both the Newtonian theory of gravitation and the "God's pushing on us" theory of gravitation. You'd have to teach the standard model of astronomy and the biblical "spherical firmament supporting the stars." In history, you'd have to teach that Taliban terrorists blew up the WTC - and that Bush blew up the WTC by planting explosives there. Let kids make up their own minds.
Like I said, choose your kids own education and you can teach them all the above. But in public school they're getting taught the facts as best we know them, not conspiracy theories or religious dogma.
>And I don't have a choice. Attendance is mandatory . . . .
No, it's not. I went to a private high school where they taught an hour of religion class every day. (And evolution in biology class.) You could do the same with your children. You could even homeschool them if you could be bothered.
Or you could choose not to, in which case you should look in the mirror to find the person to blame for your dilemma.
jakee 1,571
QuoteEvolution IS ridiculous religious dogma. It is a theory, not a proven scientific fact. The fact that so many people believe it IS a proven fact illustrates my point. You have been brainwashed.
Theories and facts are not different steps on the same ladder. A fact is not a proven theory - far from it. Theories are explanations of facts.
Animals evolve. This is a fact. The Theory of Evolution explains how that evolution works.
QuoteYou want one side taught (falsly) as fact.
There is only one side.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
You know... I have an Apple laptop with a built in camera. I have a sticker over the camera. This just tells me I'm not being paranoid.
Andy9o8 2
QuoteYou know... I have an Apple laptop with a built in camera. I have a sticker over the camera. This just tells me I'm not being paranoid.
The sticker fell off.
You have spinach in your teeth.
rehmwa 2
Quotewas telling us back in 1983 that "1984 is here."
I don't know of anyone who "scoffed at the concept."
maybe people that can read the calendar?
although car dealers get the concept I suppose
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
QuoteEven I have only vague memories of 1948.
seems we could have fun with this comment
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
billvon 3,089
>OK, but the book was written in 1948, not 1983.
?? Uh, right. 1983 was merely the date that one of my teachers talked about the book.
?? Uh, right. 1983 was merely the date that one of my teachers talked about the book.
Andy9o8 2
Quote>OK, but the book was written in 1948, not 1983.
?? Uh, right. 1983 was merely the date that one of my teachers talked about the book.
I think (if I may be so bold) that John was saying that in 1948 the concepts scoffed-at were visionary; whereas by 1983, acknowledgment of the viability of Orwell's warnings was less a matter of prescience and more a statement of the obvious, i.e., recognition of what by then had become existing fact.
champu 1
wait wait wait ... everyone went all "1984" and "religion in school" on this thread and missed the best part of the article:
omg its teh drugz!
Quote...accused of selling drugs... ...Harriton officials took a photo of him inside his home in November... ...he learned of it when an assistant principal said she knew he was engaging in improper behavior at home... ...the supposed pills were actually Mike and Ike candies.
omg its teh drugz!
.....We have seen species evolve...
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By the way, yes, you're right. Nobody denies that there has been evolution within species.
The dispute has to do with this evangelistic dogma, presented as fact, that some amoeba turned into a fish which flippered itself upon the shore, etc. etc.... There is no evidence that one species turned into another. Darwinism suggests, without proof, that this has occurred.
Even if Darwinian evolution WAS a proven scientific fact, why would this justify several weeks worth of classroom time on the subject? We don't spend nearly as much time reminding students that the sun rises in the east, or that water flows downhill. After all these are facts, right?
Evolution does not meet the requirements for serious scientific consideration. It is neither predictable, observable, nor repeatable. It is unproven and unproveable. Why would this topic belong anywhere near a "science" class?
I recall a bunch of well-meaning folks in Europe some 70-odd years ago, telling us it was perfectly okay to murder people who did not meet certain arbitrary standards of intelligence, social skills, appearance, etc. This message was given false credibility by people wearing white coats who stood in front of blackboards while they waxed on in their erudite language about how their opinion was justified by "science" and, therefore, there was no room for debate.
My question remains unanswered: Why must I be forced at gunpoint to submit my children to your irrational secular humanist religious fantasy?
Cheers,
Jon
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By the way, yes, you're right. Nobody denies that there has been evolution within species.
The dispute has to do with this evangelistic dogma, presented as fact, that some amoeba turned into a fish which flippered itself upon the shore, etc. etc.... There is no evidence that one species turned into another. Darwinism suggests, without proof, that this has occurred.
Even if Darwinian evolution WAS a proven scientific fact, why would this justify several weeks worth of classroom time on the subject? We don't spend nearly as much time reminding students that the sun rises in the east, or that water flows downhill. After all these are facts, right?
Evolution does not meet the requirements for serious scientific consideration. It is neither predictable, observable, nor repeatable. It is unproven and unproveable. Why would this topic belong anywhere near a "science" class?
I recall a bunch of well-meaning folks in Europe some 70-odd years ago, telling us it was perfectly okay to murder people who did not meet certain arbitrary standards of intelligence, social skills, appearance, etc. This message was given false credibility by people wearing white coats who stood in front of blackboards while they waxed on in their erudite language about how their opinion was justified by "science" and, therefore, there was no room for debate.
My question remains unanswered: Why must I be forced at gunpoint to submit my children to your irrational secular humanist religious fantasy?
Cheers,
Jon
billvon 3,089
>There is no evidence that one species turned into another.
We have seen one species turn into another. The event is called "speciation" - google it for more info. Here's a partial list of species that have split off from each other while we've watched:
Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas)
Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis)
Raphanobrassica
Hemp Nettle (Galeopsis tetrahit)
Madia citrigracilis
Brassica
Maidenhair Fern (Adiantum pedatum)
Woodsia Fern (Woodsia abbeae)
Stephanomeira malheurensis
Yellow Monkey Flower (Mimulus guttatus)
Fruit fly (Drosophila paulistorum)
>Even if Darwinian evolution WAS a proven scientific fact, why would this
>justify several weeks worth of classroom time on the subject?
It doesn't. It's just one part of the curriculum, no more or less important than any other part.
>Why must I be forced at gunpoint to submit my children to your
>irrational secular humanist religious fantasy?
You're not, as several people have pointed out. Put them in school anywhere you like. Heck, teach them at home. If you are too lazy/cheap to do that, then you'll get whatever the public schools give them. Your choice.
That's one of the things that's great about the US, eh? You have a choice.
>I recall a bunch of well-meaning folks in Europe some 70-odd years ago,
>telling us it was perfectly okay to murder people who did not meet certain
>arbitrary standards of intelligence, social skills, appearance, etc.
I think it's sorta sad that the best you can do here is "it's just like the Nazis." If that's really the best you can do, you've got no argument at all - since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic we're discussing.
We have seen one species turn into another. The event is called "speciation" - google it for more info. Here's a partial list of species that have split off from each other while we've watched:
Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas)
Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis)
Raphanobrassica
Hemp Nettle (Galeopsis tetrahit)
Madia citrigracilis
Brassica
Maidenhair Fern (Adiantum pedatum)
Woodsia Fern (Woodsia abbeae)
Stephanomeira malheurensis
Yellow Monkey Flower (Mimulus guttatus)
Fruit fly (Drosophila paulistorum)
>Even if Darwinian evolution WAS a proven scientific fact, why would this
>justify several weeks worth of classroom time on the subject?
It doesn't. It's just one part of the curriculum, no more or less important than any other part.
>Why must I be forced at gunpoint to submit my children to your
>irrational secular humanist religious fantasy?
You're not, as several people have pointed out. Put them in school anywhere you like. Heck, teach them at home. If you are too lazy/cheap to do that, then you'll get whatever the public schools give them. Your choice.
That's one of the things that's great about the US, eh? You have a choice.
>I recall a bunch of well-meaning folks in Europe some 70-odd years ago,
>telling us it was perfectly okay to murder people who did not meet certain
>arbitrary standards of intelligence, social skills, appearance, etc.
I think it's sorta sad that the best you can do here is "it's just like the Nazis." If that's really the best you can do, you've got no argument at all - since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic we're discussing.
kallend 2,117
Quote.....We have seen species evolve...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
By the way, yes, you're right. Nobody denies that there has been evolution within species.
The dispute has to do with this evangelistic dogma, presented as fact, that some amoeba turned into a fish which flippered itself upon the shore, etc. etc.... There is no evidence that one species turned into another. Darwinism suggests, without proof, that this has occurred.
Even if Darwinian evolution WAS a proven scientific fact, why would this justify several weeks worth of classroom time on the subject? We don't spend nearly as much time reminding students that the sun rises in the east, or that water flows downhill. After all these are facts, right?
Evolution does not meet the requirements for serious scientific consideration. It is neither predictable, observable, nor repeatable. It is unproven and unproveable. Why would this topic belong anywhere near a "science" class?
I recall a bunch of well-meaning folks in Europe some 70-odd years ago, telling us it was perfectly okay to murder people who did not meet certain arbitrary standards of intelligence, social skills, appearance, etc. This message was given false credibility by people wearing white coats who stood in front of blackboards while they waxed on in their erudite language about how their opinion was justified by "science" and, therefore, there was no room for debate.
My question remains unanswered: Why must I be forced at gunpoint to submit my children to your irrational secular humanist religious fantasy?
Cheers,
Jon
Of course, there is ZERO evidence to support any religious (supernatural) theory of the origin of species, just like there is ZERO evidence to support the existence of any deity.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Lucky... 0
QuoteEvolution IS ridiculous religious dogma.
Biological evolution exists all around you, everyday, including today. Elements of it are things like natural selection, which is impossible to disprove.
QuoteIt is a theory, not a proven scientific fact.
People who overuse:
- Proven
- Fact
Do so because they have neither. I see you use it in the negative, in a compound fashion. Science only disproves, honest science doesn't use proof in teh classic sense. In fact, hardcore scientists don't even believe in natural laws as stated because once something levitates all the other pieces of "FACT' and "PROOF" fall along with the laws of gravity.
Science takes a lot of hypotheses and tests them from many angles, tries to only have 1 independent variable, makes observations, repeats as many times as possible and makes a conclusion. They post this conclusion in the form of a theory for their contemporaries to pick it apart. These other scientists try to disprove this theory/theories, if they can't they are abliged to state so and all or in part go along with the posted theory, if even by acquiescence.
These words; fact and proof are often used in teh absolute as if to say there is such a thing on a constant basis. I've devolved into using them carefully, as they are used in conversation and it becomes cumbersome to converse and not use them, but the 2 words really are bullshit. Point is: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PERMANENT, ABSOLUTE PROOF, so it's irresponsible to go around throwing it around. Science is generally careful not to use it, religion and other unsubstantiated guesses use it as strong language to convince the naive.
Remember, SCIENCE BEGS YOU TO DISPROVE THEM, RELIGION DARES YOU TO. So whatever the ultimate truth, religion's pursuit of it is nauseating, science's approach is noble and open.
The theory of Evolution is the whole thing from primate to man, or a divergence from something to man with a simultaneous divergence to primate. This is a theory, but the individual elements of evolution are generally occurring today or have in the past, that is really supportable.
QuoteThe fact that so many people believe it IS a proven fact illustrates my point. You have been brainwashed.
The fact that anyone subscribes to absolute proof and/or absolute fact as you have stated shows me there are gullable people out there, regardless of the subject. Remember, the earth's shape was thought to be:
- Flat
- Round
- Spherical
So that's where we're at, right? Wrong, it's an oblate spheroid sinc eit rotates on its axis, the ends fall in, the middle swells. So we're done, right? We have absolute proof, right? No, it can change, the understanding of what we now have can change via new discovery. Or the actual shape could change via other phenomenon. So in science, EVERYTHING IS UP FOR GRABS AT ALL TIME, in religion, don;t fuck what has been absolutely proven by your diddy and your diddies before him. Religion's approach to origin and destiny is grotesque.
QuoteI am open-minded: I want both sides presented so students can be better equipped to make up their own minds.
SO do I, so let's teach every religion, like that of teh Muslim's too; agreed? Remember, the 1st doesn't allow for gov establishment of any religion, so we have to teach all the major ones so we aren't violating it, right?
QuoteAnd I don't have a choice. Attendance is mandatory and my money is being confiscated at gunpoint to support a system that rams a one-sided discussion of the issue down my kids' throats.
Attendance to what is mandatory? What gun point from whom to who?
Lucky... 0
Quote>Conservatives rallied about the black helicopters, inferring false paranoia
That sentence makes no sense whatsoever.
I wrote: Conservatives rallied about the black helicopters, inferring false paranoia, now that they are not in power, they are the ones who are realistically crying 'conspiracy.'
It was sarcasm. I was projecting the sarcasm from the the RW about the left being paranoid. Then, when they are not in power, they are the ones realistically pointing out the black helicopters.
Point is, whoever is not in power cries conspiracy.
Andy9o8 2
QuoteEvolution IS ridiculous religious dogma. It is a theory, not a proven scientific fact.
A well-educated person would refer to that as utter, unabashed ignorance.
QuoteThe fact that so many people believe it IS a proven fact illustrates my point. You have been brainwashed.
And a psychologist would refer to that as "projection".
jakee 1,571
QuoteEven if Darwinian evolution WAS a proven scientific fact, why would this justify several weeks worth of classroom time on the subject? We don't spend nearly as much time reminding students that the sun rises in the east, or that water flows downhill. After all these are facts, right?
We do spend time reminding students that the sun rises in the west, when we teach them about the solar system.
We do spend time reminding them that water flows downhill, when we teach them about gravity.
We spend time reminding them about evolution, when we teach them the theory that is the centrepiece of all modern biology.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
When you say "both" sides, which two sides do you mean? Obviously one of them is evolution (and I assume you specifically mean human evolution, or do you mean evolution in general?), but what do you think is the other side that should be presented?
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