Bush Interrogation Lawyers Cleared by Justice Dept.

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Friday, 19 Feb 2010 10:01 PM


Justice Department lawyers showed "poor judgment" but did not commit professional misconduct when they authorized CIA interrogators to use waterboarding

Everything I saw or read pertaining to waterboarding indicated that the practice produces the intense fear of drowning. It does not create physical pain. How is fear equated with torture?

Creating fear to motivate or modify someone's behavior is an everyday occurrence. Fear, in some form, was emphasized in every position I ever held.

If you choose to respond, base your response on the concept that fear equals torture.

OK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

Also...

Psychological torture is less well known than physical torture and tends to be subtle and much easier to conceal. In practice the distinctions between physical and psychological torture are often blurred.[citation needed] Physical torture is the inflicting of severe pain or suffering on a person. In contrast, psychological torture is directed at the psyche with calculated violations of psychological needs, along with deep damage to psychological structures and the breakage of beliefs underpinning normal sanity. Torturers often inflict both types of torture in combination to compound the associated effects.[citation needed]

Psychological torture also includes deliberate use of extreme stressors and situations such as mock execution, shunning, violation of deep-seated social or sexual norms and taboos, or extended solitary confinement. Because psychological torture needs no physical violence to be effective, it is possible to induce severe psychological pain, suffering, and trauma with no externally visible effects

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So psychological torture applies as well. Telling a person you're going to kill a family member if they don't do XYZ is a form of torture, even tho no one has been hurt.

To say waterboarding is not torture is ridiculous.

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The Justice Dept revised the defintion at the end of 2004 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin said in the new memo that torture may consist of acts that fall short of provoking excruciating and agonizing pain and thus may include mere physical suffering or lasting mental anguish. His opinion is meant, according to its language, to undermine any notion that those who conduct harmful interrogations may be exempt from prosecution.

[RonD1120 62]

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Friday, 19 Feb 2010 10:01 PM


Justice Department lawyers showed "poor judgment" but did not commit professional misconduct when they authorized CIA interrogators to use waterboarding

Everything I saw or read pertaining to waterboarding indicated that the practice produces the intense fear of drowning. It does not create physical pain. How is fear equated with torture?

Creating fear to motivate or modify someone's behavior is an everyday occurrence. Fear, in some form, was emphasized in every position I ever held.

If you choose to respond, base your response on the concept that fear equals torture.

To me, it seems obvious; but I realized that we could get bogged down in defining "torture". So, to help lay a foundation, and since we're discussing actions done by or on behalf of the United States, here's the definition under United States law:

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TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340

§ 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality...

If I was a judge (and with 25 years of practice I think I'm qualified to be one), I would rule that waterboarding constitutes torture under US law under several aspects of this legal definition.

Thank you, that makes sense to me, from the legal perspective.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Friday, 19 Feb 2010 10:01 PM


Justice Department lawyers showed "poor judgment" but did not commit professional misconduct when they authorized CIA interrogators to use waterboarding

Everything I saw or read pertaining to waterboarding indicated that the practice produces the intense fear of drowning. It does not create physical pain. How is fear equated with torture?

Creating fear to motivate or modify someone's behavior is an everyday occurrence. Fear, in some form, was emphasized in every position I ever held.

If you choose to respond, base your response on the concept that fear equals torture.

To me, it seems obvious; but I realized that we could get bogged down in defining "torture". So, to help lay a foundation, and since we're discussing actions done by or on behalf of the United States, here's the definition under United States law:

***
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > § 2340

§ 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter—
(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality...

If I was a judge (and with 25 years of practice I think I'm qualified to be one), I would rule that waterboarding constitutes torture under US law under several aspects of this legal definition.

Thank you, that makes sense to me, from the legal perspective.

How's this for a legal pespective?:

The Justice Dept revised the defintion at the end of 2004 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin said in the new memo that torture may consist of acts that fall short of provoking excruciating and agonizing pain and thus may include mere physical suffering or lasting mental anguish. His opinion is meant, according to its language, to undermine any notion that those who conduct harmful interrogations may be exempt from prosecution.

[RonD1120 62]

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How's this for a legal pespective?:

The Justice Dept revised the defintion at the end of 2004 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin said in the new memo that torture may consist of acts that fall short of provoking excruciating and agonizing pain and thus may include mere physical suffering or lasting mental anguish. His opinion is meant, according to its language, to undermine any notion that those who conduct harmful interrogations may be exempt from prosecution.

It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Captor: Tell me what you know.
POW: No.
Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Remster 30]

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How's this for a legal pespective?:

The Justice Dept revised the defintion at the end of 2004 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin said in the new memo that torture may consist of acts that fall short of provoking excruciating and agonizing pain and thus may include mere physical suffering or lasting mental anguish. His opinion is meant, according to its language, to undermine any notion that those who conduct harmful interrogations may be exempt from prosecution.

It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Captor: Tell me what you know.
POW: No.
Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

Awesome. Jack Bauer has nothing on your mad skilz.

Remster

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How's this for a legal pespective?:

The Justice Dept revised the defintion at the end of 2004 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin said in the new memo that torture may consist of acts that fall short of provoking excruciating and agonizing pain and thus may include mere physical suffering or lasting mental anguish. His opinion is meant, according to its language, to undermine any notion that those who conduct harmful interrogations may be exempt from prosecution.

It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Captor: Tell me what you know.
POW: No.
Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

So you're pro-torture. Admirable. And then in the same breath, out of the other side of your face, you proclaim that these rogue regimes are horrible because they torure other people. People begin to think teh US is full of shit when we do that, but you want the US to the Imperialistic tyrant and wonder why others refuse to call it freedom.

So you agree that, by definition, waterboarding IS torture.

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How's this for a legal pespective?:

The Justice Dept revised the defintion at the end of 2004 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin said in the new memo that torture may consist of acts that fall short of provoking excruciating and agonizing pain and thus may include mere physical suffering or lasting mental anguish. His opinion is meant, according to its language, to undermine any notion that those who conduct harmful interrogations may be exempt from prosecution.

It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Captor: Tell me what you know.
POW: No.
Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

Awesome. Jack Bauer has nothing on your mad skilz.

Nor did Adolf Hitler Stalin, Pol Pot, etc

[RonD1120 62]

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So you agree that, by definition, waterboarding IS torture.

No I do not. Andy9o8 pointed out that the law may be interpreted to mean that waterboarding is torture.

If I am engaged in mortal combat I don't give flying flip about my enemy's mental anguish. I want him scared sh**less.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,230]

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So you agree that, by definition, waterboarding IS torture.

No I do not. Andy9o8 pointed out that the law may be interpreted to mean that waterboarding is torture.

If I am engaged in mortal combat I don't give flying flip about my enemy's mental anguish. I want him scared sh**less.

Did you learn that from Jesus?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

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So you agree that, by definition, waterboarding IS torture.

No I do not. Andy9o8 pointed out that the law may be interpreted to mean that waterboarding is torture.

If I am engaged in mortal combat I don't give flying flip about my enemy's mental anguish. I want him scared sh**less.

Did you learn that from Jesus?

Learned it from the book of Romans.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 2,230]

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So you agree that, by definition, waterboarding IS torture.

No I do not. Andy9o8 pointed out that the law may be interpreted to mean that waterboarding is torture.

If I am engaged in mortal combat I don't give flying flip about my enemy's mental anguish. I want him scared sh**less.

Did you learn that from Jesus?

Learned it from the book of Romans.

Did Jesus write that?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 62]

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Did you learn that from Jesus?

Learned it from the book of Romans.

[Andy9o8 3]

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Pauline Epistle.

As a side note, I hear that Paul was pissed to the max that his mom named him "Pauline". Sort of a "boy named Sue" thing. Anyhow, Jesus counseled him to turn the other cheek.

Now back to our show.

[Remster 30]

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So you agree that, by definition, waterboarding IS torture.

No I do not. Andy9o8 pointed out that the law may be interpreted to mean that waterboarding is torture.

If I am engaged in mortal combat I don't give flying flip about my enemy's mental anguish. I want him scared sh**less.

Did you learn that from Jesus?

Learned it from the book of Romans.

So you put religious laws above the law of the land? So no problems with stoning infidels then, right?

Remster

[NickDG 23]

The next time we get into a "real war" with large amounts of prisoners being taken all this neo-con republican bullshit will come home to roost . . .

NickD

[kallend 2,230]

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Did you learn that from Jesus?

Learned it from the book of Romans.

Did Jesus write that?

[rushmc 23]

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The next time we get into a "real war" with large amounts of prisoners being taken all this neo-con republican bullshit will come home to roost . . .

NickD

Ooooooooook

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,230]

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The next time we get into a "real war" with large amounts of prisoners being taken all this neo-con republican bullshit will come home to roost . . .

NickD

Ooooooooook

Why are you impersonating an orang-utan?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

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The next time we get into a "real war" with large amounts of prisoners being taken all this neo-con republican bullshit will come home to roost . . .

NickD

Ooooooooook

Why are you impersonating an orang-utan?

Sorry, I was thought it was your native language.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,173]

>It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Yes, it is.

>Captor: Tell me what you know.
>POW: No.
>Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

Captor to POW2: Tell me what you know.
POW2: OK! Anything! I'll tell you anything!
Captor: Is there a ticking time bomb in the building?
POW2: YES! YES!
Captor: We heard there wasn't.
POW2: Then NO! NO!

I can only hope that any interrogator that does such a lousy job will be at least prosecuted when his bad HUMINT leads to solders (and civilians) deaths.

[captain1976 0]

The bottom line here is that these men are criminals and should be prosecuted as such.
They broke the law or laws were broken because of them.

Hitlers Henchmen were not even considered law-breakers because their actions fell within the law of the land. But there is a law above the law that they were convicted on and prosecuted accordingly.

Torture is a criminal act and all involved should pay the price. But that probably won't happen since these scumbags stick together and probably colluded on the matter long ago.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[rushmc 23]

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The bottom line here is that these men are criminals and should be prosecuted as such.
They broke the law or laws were broken because of them.

Hitlers Henchmen were not even considered law-breakers because their actions fell within the law of the land. But there is a law above the law that they were convicted on and prosecuted accordingly.

Torture is a criminal act and all involved should pay the price. But that probably won't happen since these scumbags stick together and probably colluded on the matter long ago.

Seems the current Justice Dept does not agree with you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 62]

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>It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Yes, it is.

>Captor: Tell me what you know.
>POW: No.
>Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

Captor to POW2: Tell me what you know.
POW2: OK! Anything! I'll tell you anything!
Captor: Is there a ticking time bomb in the building?
POW2: YES! YES!
Captor: We heard there wasn't.
POW2: Then NO! NO!

I can only hope that any interrogator that does such a lousy job will be at least prosecuted when his bad HUMINT leads to solders (and civilians) deaths.

I agree that is a lousy job. Interrogation should never involve yes/no questions.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Laszloimage 0]

Ron,
As far as I understand from another ongoing thread you’re true Christian believer.
So can you please explain how Jesus wants to win a war???
Isn’t problem solving suppose to happen through “diplomacy”?
How Jesus wants to interrogate people (even if they’re very evil) using fear (according with you water boarding is nothing else but fear) to get information out of people to win a fight?
Where is the love of God, forgiveness, and the other tenderness taught by the Holy Bible???

[Andy9o8 3]

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>It makes field interrogation very simple. HUMINT is required to win a war.

Yes, it is.

>Captor: Tell me what you know.
>POW: No.
>Captor: "Bang" Next witness.

Captor to POW2: Tell me what you know.
POW2: OK! Anything! I'll tell you anything!
Captor: Is there a ticking time bomb in the building?
POW2: YES! YES!
Captor: We heard there wasn't.
POW2: Then NO! NO!

I can only hope that any interrogator that does such a lousy job will be at least prosecuted when his bad HUMINT leads to solders (and civilians) deaths.

I agree that is a lousy job. Interrogation should never involve yes/no questions.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403171.html?hpid=topnews

In 2002, Military Agency Warned Against 'Torture'
Extreme Duress Could Yield Unreliable Information, It Said

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http://harpers.org/archive/2009/03/hbc-90004644

Information Secured Through Torture Proved Unreliable, CIA Concluded

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http://www.world-science.net/othernews/090921_torture

Study: torture produces unreliable information

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http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/etn/2007/statement/177/index.htm
Former Head of the Defense Intelligence Agency Says Torture Produces Unreliable Information