futuredivot 0 #51 February 8, 2010 QuoteSilly answer Thanks for sharing your opinion-you're wrong, but thanks anyway QuoteIf there was no dog and a woman was getting beaten inside, what was the cop going to do? Go beat on the door without shooting the dog. But there was a dog-it acted aggressively and, unfortunately, was dealt with. A responder who doesn't always act as if it is an emergency is complacent. Complacent responders are injured or dead responders.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #52 February 8, 2010 QuoteGo beat on the door without shooting the dog. Right, which would have made no difference for whatever was or was not going on inside the house. The dog could have been saved without any added risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #53 February 8, 2010 But there was a dog between point A and point B. The obstacle can't be removed by force of wishing. That's as valid as saying "But what if there was a hot oil lesbian party in the house" Then you show up with a video camera and extra batteries. However, the report doesn't mention sexy chicks-it does mention a dog, so lets just deal with the reality of a growling, ears back, bundle of potential hurt that the cop was staring at.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #54 February 8, 2010 QuoteBut there was a dog between point A and point B. Right, which the cop should have known before she entered the property, since the sign on the gate warned her so. That was the time to call, not after she entered and encountered the animal she was already warned about. Call house --> no answer ----> enter property and deal with any consequences Call House --> answer, but suspicious for whatever reason ---> enter proeprty and deal with any consequences Call House --> answer, owner comes outside and secures dogs---> deal with situation It really isn't that hard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #55 February 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteBut there was a dog between point A and point B. Right, which the cop should have known before she entered the property, since the sign on the gate warned her so. That was the time to call, not after she entered and encountered the animal she was already warned about. Call house --> no answer ----> enter property and deal with any consequences Call House --> answer, but suspicious for whatever reason ---> enter proeprty and deal with any consequences Call House --> answer, owner comes outside and secures dogs---> deal with situation It really isn't that hard. Meanwhile the occupant who made the 911 call is being beaten to death by the assailant who canceled it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #56 February 8, 2010 Quote Meanwhile the occupant who made the 911 call is being beaten to death by the assailant who canceled it. lets not get crazy here with the senarios... It's not like the cops are hall'n balls to these calls, jumping out of their cars and running to the front door.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #57 February 8, 2010 QuoteMeanwhile the occupant who made the 911 call is being beaten to death by the assailant who canceled it. but, If we can save just ONE pet - it's all worth it won't someone please think of the PUPPIES? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #58 February 8, 2010 Quotewon't someone please think of the PUPPIES? I can't. I'm too busy thinking about the hot oiled lesbians.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #59 February 8, 2010 QuoteMeanwhile the occupant who made the 911 call is being beaten to death by the assailant who canceled it. If that was the case, the young female officer ringing the doorbell would not have made a difference. As a matter of fact, if the assailant answers the phone, she would stop the beating without even having to enter the property. (Plus a no-answer with visible clues there are occupants would be a great time to escalate the call and ask for back up. This would then enhance the chance of stopping this supposed beating sooner) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #60 February 8, 2010 Quotesooner WAITING on backup gets faster results-you're stretching so far to hold your point that it's getting ridiculous.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #61 February 8, 2010 QuoteWAITING on backup gets faster results-you're stretching so far to hold your point that it's getting ridiculous. I didn't say she would wait for the back up prior to acting. If you really are this bad at reading, maybe it doesn't make sense to have a written discussion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #62 February 8, 2010 Quote911 call made. 911 call canceled. Department policy is to respond anyway. Yes, and it shoud be. Quote"Exigent circumstances" more than likely existed. Here we go again; more assumptions from the expert of none. The media typically reports everything or sensationalization, here ther was none. That doesn't mean none were present, but we have to go from the data we have and nothing has been suplied so we have to go with that. QuoteIt's up to the investigators to determine that. Well, they weren't investigators, that's sensationalizing, she was the investigating officer. And yes, it his his/her discretion, but that's why the 1983 statutes allow for officers to be personally sued; piss poor discretion. Quote911 calls being canceled when a situation still exists is not rare or isolated by any means. Most departments' policy is to respond as if the call was never canceled, i.e. 911 calls, in effect, cannot be undone. Why would you argue a moot point? I doubt any police dept would then just ignore, most would respond with less than guns drawn or kicking down doors absent exigency; that's the issue here - was proper discretion used? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #63 February 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteI agree, there were no imminent signs of peril according to what was reported. And having been an emergency responder faced with an aggressive seeming dog-I took the fucker out, gained entrance-stopped the fire in the laundry room (no visible signs of fire until we kicked the door in, and saved the guys house. I had an EFFECTIVE means of non lethal response to deter the animal unlike tasers or spray which MAY work. Sorry, but my EXPERIENCE with Fido the wonder mutt trumps your OPINION. Right, exigency existed. Here, none did according to the media rendition; AKA all the info we have. But what you have is an example of kicking all doors down will eventually render an emergency, the US Const kinda warns against that. This will be the issue for a jury as to the reasonableness of thje officer knowing she could have had 911 call the party back, report her there and have them contain the dogs and allow immediate entry. What kind of dept reports with just 1 officer, let alone a female, assuming she was alone? But your post is mere bravado IMO, no judgment as to trying more amicable approaches like calling 911 to call in, if no response then that ups the ante. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #64 February 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGood questions. One I would like to add: If the call had been for a fire and not canceled, what would the firefighters have done when confronted by a barking dog of unknown aggressiveness? Around here the police respond to fire calls in addition to the FD. I have to say that I find no fault with the cop's response in this case. I agree, there were no imminent signs of peril according to what was reported. The signage should have made a reasonable person believe that there would be dogs in there; I see her actions, based upon the report, very irresponsible. I think you misread what I wrote. Not at all, you say her actions of entering a gate marked with notice of dogs to be responsible, I say they were not; the shooting of the dogs is virtually incent to that; the irresponsibility occurred when the gate was opened. Many dog owners won't even warn people of a dog, here they dod, this shifts the burden to the people entering. Granted, this is not a typical situation and she has cause to access teh house, but if there were no sounds or signs of struggle present and contact had not been attempted, it's clear to me that she used poor discretion and the result supports that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #65 February 8, 2010 QuoteIn Denver, it's still illegal to own a pitbull. Is it? I thought they just required some astronomical insurance policy. But the should be, as well as rotties and other aggressive breeds. QuoteWhat was the officer supposed to do? Look/listen for signs of exigency. If none exist, have 911 call thru, if no answer, then that is a sort of sign of exigency there - up the ante. QuoteI doubt the dog was trying to lick her - no reasonable person shoots a dog unless it is being aggressive. Retreating from the house is not a reasonable option in the event of a 911 call - the time it takes to get animal control there and take control of the situation my be too long to save someone's life. Right, so before it gets to that, have 911 call back and tell them teh officer need to gain immediate entry or they will be forcced to gain it however they have to. QuoteMaybe she could've thrown pebbles at their window from outside the gate? Or had 911 call in and go from there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #66 February 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteNext on News At Six-Woman and two children severely beaten as police wait outside for Animal Control officers to arrive. Silly answer. If there was no dog and a woman was getting beaten inside, what was the cop going to do? She should have read the sign, called inside. No answer, enter the property. People don't come out to secure the dogs, enter property. People come out right away, she get's to establish everything is ok and the dog lives. The outcome could have been very different without any added risk to anybody, with just some thought and common sense. +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #67 February 8, 2010 QuoteThanks for sharing your opinion-you're wrong, but thanks anyway This is not really a right/wrong issue, it's a matter of good discrretion vs poor discretion. Most laypeople don't grasp that. QuoteGo beat on the door without shooting the dog. But there was a dog-it acted aggressively and, unfortunately, was dealt with. A responder who doesn't always act as if it is an emergency is complacent. Complacent responders are injured or dead responders. And over-aggressive responders can kill people/animal unneccesarily and get sued, occassionally tried. I think the jury would wonder about the response technique too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #68 February 8, 2010 QuoteBut there was a dog between point A and point B. The obstacle can't be removed by force of wishing. That's as valid as saying "But what if there was a hot oil lesbian party in the house" Then you show up with a video camera and extra batteries. However, the report doesn't mention sexy chicks-it does mention a dog, so lets just deal with the reality of a growling, ears back, bundle of potential hurt that the cop was staring at. But you can think outside teh box and outsmart it. If there were no answer from a 011 callback, I would be more aggressive as a responder too, but that would be more a last response than a 1st one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #69 February 8, 2010 Quote Here we go again; more assumptions from the expert of none. Oh, the irony! Oh, wait, I forgot...you watch Matlock re-runs so you are an expert in the law. Got it. Quote Well, they weren't investigators,.... What? You mean an officer can discharge their firearm and no investigation is made? Since when? Quote was proper discretion used? Yes.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #70 February 8, 2010 QuoteOh, the irony! Oh, wait, I forgot...you watch Matlock re-runs so you are an expert in the law. Got it. From a guy who assumes that, "Exigent circumstances" more than likely existed. I think we’ve suddenly degraded to filling in our own blanks as far as the facts go. All we know is that she showed up, entered thru the gate marked with a warning for dogs and she killed one as they charged. No info was given as to whether she tried any other method of entry or caution. I go with the facts, you go with your own made-up version of the facts. QuoteWhat? You mean an officer can discharge their firearm and no investigation is made? Since when? You wrote: “911 call made. 911 call canceled. Department policy is to respond anyway. "Exigent circumstances" more than likely existed. It's up to the investigators to determine that.“ Initially it is up to the discretion of the officer to determine if exigency exists, then the department investigates the outcome; surprise - they virtually always find the officers in the right. Of course juries will sometimes overrule that in a civil sense, very rarely criminally. The initial discretion is up to the officer, scrutinized later by various authorities. QuoteYes. You say proper discretion was used, but as usual, no supporting evidence or explanation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #71 February 9, 2010 Quote I go with the facts, you go with your own made-up version of the facts. Right back at ye, buddy. Right back at ye. Damn you make me laugh! You wrote, "Well, they weren't investigators, that's sensationalizing, she was the investigating officer." Whether or not there were exigent circs. is up to the investigators who investigate the event. So there are investigators. Understand? (I highly doubt it) Since she DID find reason to shoot the dog there is a higher chance of there being exigent circs. than not. We will all just have to wait for the final report to come out...even you.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #72 February 9, 2010 Might as well back up, dude. The only thing tougher than finding a subject that Lucky isn't an expert in is finding a subject that he's competent in. You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #73 February 9, 2010 Quote Might as well back up, dude. The only thing tougher than finding a subject that Lucky isn't an expert in is finding a subject that he's competent in. +1 HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #74 February 9, 2010 QuoteQuotewon't someone please think of the PUPPIES? I can't. I'm too busy thinking about the hot oiled lesbians. oh, that's just great~~, now I'm distracted too... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #75 February 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotewon't someone please think of the PUPPIES? I can't. I'm too busy thinking about the hot oiled lesbians. oh, that's just great~~, now I'm distracted too... Might as well kiss those puppies goodbyeYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
