Finally "no open carry" at some businesses

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

it will take several years before you see any effect.

Dude the gun registry has been online for almost a decade now.

It DOES NOT work!!!

The vast majority of the people committing firearms crimes are using unregistered weapons.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

Re:

"Anyway, there is a lot of possible implementations - from "grandfathering" with prohibiting any kind of transfer of ownership to mandatory surrendering them in 30 days with a like $10K fine (and/or jail time) for everyone who refused after that. Out of that fine, $5K is going to be paid to a whistleblower, completely anonymously. Like this."
- georgerussia

Quote

Quote

while you don't say anything about creation of a police force, neither does he.

That was my point.

Then who would enforce this scheme you are proposing? Who is going to arrest gun owners who violate your rules? Who is going to bring them to justice to collect the fines? Who is going to confiscate the guns when they fail to comply?

Will it be the tooth fairy? The easter bunny?

Quote

Quote

Then who would enforce this scheme you are proposing?

Existing law enforcement. No need to create a special secret police.

Well lookee there. After all that tap-dancing around about the words "creation of a police force", it turns out that your denial really only applied to the word "creation". Now you finally admit that you would in fact have the police going around confiscating guns from the homes of citizens.

And once again we see how you're playing word games to try and make your ideas more palatable, and to disguise the true nature of what you would like to implement. Just like a die-hard gun-control addict.

This method of operation of yours is why you create so much controversy - it's because you don't speak clearly to begin with, and then when people seek clarification, all you do is play games. Perhaps you should try just being straight-forward and frank right up front. Then we wouldn't have all these contentious cycles back-and-forth trying to drag the true meaning out of you. Sheesh.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

It has nothing to do with the number of guns or gun laws.

No, it does. Gun availability and gun ownership paranoia is a significant part of U.S. culture. This is pretty obvious in some cases like drive-through shootings.

You are getting close to the truth, but you're still not quite there.

It's not about the culture of gun ownership. It's about the culture of violence.

There are plenty of countries where there are lots of guns and little violence. Why? Because they don't glorify violence. And there are lots of countries with few guns, that still have lots of violence. Why? Because violence is ingrained as the way to get what you want.

So instead of attacking the constitutional freedom to own guns, and the moral right to self-defense. How about instead you attack the culture of violence, that causes people to want to go out and hurt others? Maybe you should expend some brain cells on that idea...

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

So you put forth both of these ideas, but you are now claiming that you don't approve of either of them?

I did not claim that in my post.
Is it really so difficult to address what was actually written in my post instead of making up your fantasies and address them?

Quote

You can clear up all this confusion by simply clarifying your position; either confirm or deny that you would support these ideas. It's that simple and straight-forward.

If you wanted to know my opinion, you could have asked. Instead you preferred to make it up, and claimed I "called for" and "entertain fantasies about". Those were lies, because I did not call for setting up fake school zones, nor I said anything about blowing anyone. Those were lies you made up intentionally. There is no confusion at all.

Quote

It would seem that everyone that disagrees with you is a "liar" in some fashion or another.

There is a significant difference between disagreements (which is fine), and writing lies (which is what you did).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Well lookee there. After all that tap-dancing around about the words "creation of a police force"

Which was the only important part in our discussion where you jumped in without understanding what exactly we were talking about.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

There are plenty of countries where there are lots of guns and little violence.

Name ten of them where we can verify the gun ownership rate and crime statistics.
(there are close to 200 countries in the world, so 10 is on a very low side of "plenty", but I'll accept it)

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Dude the gun registry has been online for almost a decade now.
It DOES NOT work!!!

Do you have gun crime statistics in Canada for last twenty years to confirm that? How do you know it does not work?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Yes. They have gun control laws, but since they do not really enforce it.

so now we are getting somewhere

US doesn't enforce existing gun laws, but you want more laws put in place even?

How about we try this? You go make sure existing laws are enforced against criminals using guns for bad things. Let's see how this goes before implementing more 'feel good' legislation against decent property owners.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

If you wanted to know my opinion, you could have asked. Instead you preferred to make it up, and claimed I "called for" and "entertain fantasies about". Those were lies, because I did not call for setting up fake school zones, nor I said anything about blowing anyone. Those were lies you made up intentionally. There is no confusion at all.

You're weaseling.

You were clearly calling for BS techniques like "fake school zones" as an acceptable strategy to disarm citizens by making them felons.

You proposed large rewards to citizens to report on each other. That sort of thing was really ugly for society in the Soviet block.

The only one you can feign some innocence on is the bazooka remark, since your remarks could be construed as a wish to intimidate them rather than kill them, but it's hardly a big stretch by him to suspect the latter.

None of those were made up lies by him. You were trying to be vague again, but not really succeeding. You're not fooling anyone.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

US doesn't enforce existing gun laws, but you want more laws put in place even?

Please list the gun laws which are not being enforced in U.S.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

You're weaseling.

Nope. My position didn't change since the start - I did not claim what he said I did. It is JR who is weaseling trying first to claim he didn't say that, just asked, and then speculating whether I approve them.

Of course, it would be quite naive to expect a fair comment from you on that matter, as you're definitely not a neutral party in this discussion.

Quote

You were clearly calling for BS techniques like "fake school zones" as an acceptable strategy to disarm citizens by making them felons.

This is a lie, as I did not call for it.

Quote

You proposed large rewards to citizens to report on each other. That sort of thing was really ugly for society in the Soviet block.

Reporting the criminals is already rewarded in U.S. Just to name a few, IRS offer cash rewards for reporting tax cheats, Medicare offer rewards to report frauds. If you consider this being in a Soviet block, then you're already there.

Quote

The only one you can feign some innocence on is the bazooka remark, since your remarks could be construed as a wish to intimidate them rather than kill them, but it's hardly a big stretch by him to suspect the latter.

Interesting. So if I bring a gun in a restaurant, it's not to kill someone or even not to intimidate, it's to "protest" or "protect my rights". But if I bring a bazooka (assuming the government makes it available - see the original post), it's to intimidate at least. Are you applying double standards? Don't you agree that this is a criminal, and not a tool which commits crimes, and therefore it should not matter which TOOL a CRIMINAL would choose?

Quote

None of those were made up lies by him. You were trying to be vague again, but not really succeeding. You're not fooling anyone.

The reality is that both of them were lies, and clearly claimed that I said something which I did not.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Interesting. So if I bring a gun in a restaurant, it's not to kill someone or even not to intimidate, it's to "protest" or "protect my rights". But if I bring a bazooka (assuming the government makes it available - see the original post), it's to intimidate at least. Are you applying double standards? Don't you agree that this is a criminal, and not a tool which commits crimes, and therefore it should not matter which TOOL a CRIMINAL would choose?

I see people carrying guns all the time. Cops get lunch, donuts, coffee, etc while on duty and of course have handguns, loaded ones in their case. Certain businesses have armed guards onsite as well.

There's nothing intimidating about a handful of yuppies sitting at a coffee bar with unloaded sidearms. I think you'd have a stronger case highlighting the open carriers at political rallies where Obama is speaking.

You, in contrast, talked about finding these people and bringing a bazooka to confront them with it. Whether you fire it or merely brandish it, your intent is to escalate a confrontation. Not nearly the same as exercising your right to open carry and drink coffee. If they intended to commit criminal acts, they would conceal it to maintain their element of surprise.

Quote

The reality is that both of them were lies, and clearly claimed that I said something which I did not.

The reality is that there is no limit to the constitutional abuses you would accept in order to end gun ownership. That's the problem when you act emotionally. According to you, the only reason you're so wrapped up on this issue is that someone(s) here on the other side said bad or scary things. So either you lied and were always on that side of the fence, or you think that rights only exist until feelings are hurt.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

You, in contrast, talked about finding these people and bringing a bazooka to confront them with it. Whether you fire it or merely brandish it, your intent is to escalate a confrontation. Not nearly the same as exercising your right to open carry and drink coffee.

No surprise. This is exactly what I said - you see no issues bringing guns in family restaurants, but somehow see issues bringing a bazooka there - despite all the NRA claims that "you're not supposed to fear the tool". This is what I call double standards.

And where is the fine line when it is not "exercise your right" and "escalate a confrontation"? Is it ok to bring an unloaded shotgun? What about three or ten? Maybe a bunch of MP5s, and couple of machetes?

Quote

The reality is that there is no limit to the constitutional abuses you would accept in order to end gun ownership.

This is false claim. What I said that existing laws can be changed through legal means (and this includes Constitution, which can be changed too), and wanting to change a specific law does not make a person a constitutional abuser - it is called "political movement".

You probably confused me with some gun owners who openly admitted right in this forum that they plan not to follow the law (i.e. become criminals) if a law restricting guns is passed. Didn't see you going after them though. Well, double standards.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I did not call for setting up fake school zones...

What you said:

"Got interesting comment - find the location of the next open carry event, and set up some kind of school nearby (close than 1,000 feet). When the crowd arrives, call the police and have all open carriers arrested for possessing a firearm within a distance of 1,000 feet from the school. Two to five in state prison. Would probably end open carry movement quite fast"

Finding the location of a gathering, and then setting up a school nearby, for the purpose of arresting gun folks, constitutes "setting up a fake school zone". Deny it all you want, but it's right there in your own words. The only thing I added to your description was the word "fake", and it's clear from the context that this is exactly what you are suggesting - you want to create a "school zone" where none existed before, the creation timed to occur just before the meeting of gun folks, and for the purpose of arresting them. That's as fake as it gets. Call it whatever you want, but this is a duck that quacks & waddles.

And for you to now claim that you said no such thing, just shows how disingenuous you are with your words, and how your claims of "lies" become a joke.

Let's end this once and for all. It's all up to you. Would you, georgerussia, personally like to see school zones set up like this scheme in order to arrest gun folks? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

Quote

...nor I said anything about blowing anyone

What you said;

"Also it would be fun visiting that place where open-carry nuts crowd gets together while carrying a nice bazooka. Maybe some of them would immediately get an idea that just maybe open carry is not really a good idea."

Nope, you didn't use the words "blowing up", which is why I asked you to clarify your intent regarding that statement, and you failed to do so. If you write confusing messages, don't go around calling people "liars" when your messages aren't understood. You have quite a reputation here for being antagonistic toward gun owners in general, including wanting their guns confiscated, and locking them up, even through devious means, like the above school zone scheme. So when you talk about "fun" with a "bazooka" where "gun nuts" gather, and how they'd "get the idea that gun carry is not a good idea" = that's a veiled threat if I ever saw one. So what did you expect people to think? Especially after you refused to clarify your intention, despite numerous requests and opportunities to do so.

Let's end this once and for all. It's all up to you. Would you, georgerussia, personally like someone to take a bazooka to a gun gathering, in order to show them that gun carry is not a good idea? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

So you see, if there's any misinterpretation going on here, it's a result of your own doing. You explain yourself poorly, and refuse to elaborate. And then call everyone liars for not being able to read your mind. Ha!

Review: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3778264;#3778264

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Name ten of them where we can verify the gun ownership rate and crime statistics.

Do you have gun crime statistics in Canada for last twenty years to confirm that?

Please list the gun laws which are not being enforced in U.S.

Is this your latest ploy - to demand numerous statistics from everyone? And if they aren't produced, then I guess you'll call them liars again? Gee, I haven't seen you providing anything like the above to prove your points. It's funny how your standard of proof varies...

Show me your crime statistics covering 20 years, from 10 different countries that have banned guns, along with a list of those gun ban laws, to prove that crime has gone down in each and every one in direct correlation to the gun ban.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

What you said:

"Got interesting comment - find the location of the next open carry event, and set up some kind of school nearby (close than 1,000 feet). When the crowd arrives, call the police and have all open carriers arrested for possessing a firearm within a distance of 1,000 feet from the school. Two to five in state prison. Would probably end open carry movement quite fast"

Finding the location of a gathering, and then setting up a school nearby, for the purpose of arresting gun folks, constitutes "setting up a fake school zone". Deny it all you want, but it's right there in your own words.

You claimed I called for it. "Call for" has a very explicit meaning. It is not there in my post, nor are "fake" school zones. And since you attributed it to me, this was a lie.

Quote

What you said;

"Also it would be fun visiting that place where open-carry nuts crowd gets together while carrying a nice bazooka. Maybe some of them would immediately get an idea that just maybe open carry is not really a good idea."

Nope, you didn't use the words "blowing up"

So you admitted that you wrote a lie when you claimed I do.

Quote

If you write confusing messages, don't go around calling people "liars" when your messages aren't understood.

This message was very clear in terms that it didn't state "blowing up". You clearly made it up, and admitted it. Of course you're not going to apoligise for your mistake - you prefer to blame me that you made up things I clearly didn't say, and attributed your lies to me. That's it. Your excuses do not matter, and are quite irrelevant here. With four (or five?) lies your credibility is already well below zero.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Is this your latest ploy - to demand numerous statistics from everyone?

Not from everyone - just from someone like JohnRich, who claimed that "there are plenty of countries where there are lots of guns and little violence", and made a whole theory on this basis without proving this statement first.

And since you have provided false information in past ("skyrocketing gun crime" in UK, state stores in USSR and so on) as well as multiple lies about my posts, it was necessary to confirm that you indeed have the data to support your claim. Looks like that you do not. This means the point you've made in this post is void and there is nothing else to discuss with you on this point.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JohnRich 4]

Would you, georgerussia, personally like to see school zones set up in order to arrest gatherings of gun folks? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

Would you, georgerussia, personally like someone to take a bazooka to a gun gathering, in order to show them that gun carry is not a good idea? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

Two words from you is all it takes. Come clean. If you truly believe in it, it won't hurt you to admit it. It will purify your soul. Do it.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

"there are plenty of countries where there are lots of guns and little violence", and made a whole theory on this basis without proving this statement first.

Your theory is that easy gun access causes high gun crime.
And we've already given you the example of Switzerland to disprove that.
It only takes one example to the contrary, to prove your theory wrong.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Would you, georgerussia, personally like to see school zones set up in order to arrest gatherings of gun folks? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

Would you, georgerussia, personally like someone to take a bazooka to a gun gathering, in order to show them that gun carry is not a good idea? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

Because you have claimed at least twice that I have said things which I clearly did not say, I'm not going to answer those questions until you apologize at least for those lies. There is no reason to waste time to write an elaborate answer to someone who shows no basic respect to an opponent.

Also I wouldn't answer just "yes" or "no" because you already made up things from a pretty clear sentence in past, so providing a single answer would give you just extra opportunity to make more things up.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

"there are plenty of countries where there are lots of guns and little violence", and made a whole theory on this basis without proving this statement first.

Your theory is that easy gun access causes high gun crime.
And we've already given you the example of Switzerland to disprove that.
It only takes one example to the contrary, to prove your theory wrong.

Now prepare for the U of Alabama shooting posts you know are coming

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Your theory is that easy gun access causes high gun crime.
And we've already given you the example of Switzerland to disprove that.

If your example is only one (and pretty unique) country out of ~200, it has very little value. You obviously understood that yourself as you mentioned "plenty of countries" and not a "single country". That's why I wanted to see other countries besides Switzerland.

This is not even saying that Switzerland has only like a 6M population and unique training requirements - not even close what we have in USA, and only allows gun storage. Carrying guns also generally requires a permit which is a "may issue" type (and according to my friend is very hard to get).

And Switzerland has their shootings as well. Google Friedrich Leibacher. One serious shooting in ten years sounds small comparing to U.S. until you adjust for the population. Since U.S. population is almost 50x more than Swiss, it basically means that adjusting it to U.S. population means there were 50 shootings in Switzerland during ten years - not exactly a small number anymore.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

Would you, georgerussia, personally like to see school zones set up in order to arrest gatherings of gun folks? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

Would you, georgerussia, personally like someone to take a bazooka to a gun gathering, in order to show them that gun carry is not a good idea? Please answer simply "yes" or "no".

...I'm not going to answer those questions until you apologize at least for those lies...

blah blah blah

Try saying what you mean, and meaning what you say, and then you'll earn some respect.

All I see is someone who doesn't have the guts to state their true feelings, and someone who wishes to continue to try and deceive everyone.

Do you realize that you've used the words "lie", "lies", "lying", or "liar", 22 times in the last 3 days. Wow!

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Try saying what you mean, and meaning what you say, and then you'll earn some respect.

Try to be a man and apologize for the lies you wrote, and then you may earn some respect.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Try saying what you mean, and meaning what you say, and then you'll earn some respect.

Try to be a man and apologize for the lies you wrote, and then you may earn some respect.

Thanks
I needed that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln