Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

[RonD1120 62]

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I’m getting back to the original topic here… “Freedom of religion means freedom from religion”.
Why is that so important to keep religion out of politics? And why is important to keep religion out of public schools as well?

I see see it this way. Freedom of speech guarantees our right to sell, persuade, influence any issue we choose.

Christianity is a faith; Islam is a faith; secular humanism is a faith. Christians are forced to proclaim their faith in every venue possible for the love and concern of their children and families. They don't trust Islam and they have no faith in secular humanism.

A politician would never proclaim his/her Christian faith publicly unless a political benefit was assured or strongly anticipated.

As far as public education goes I believe this, the incidence of mental illness has increased in direct proportion to the decrease in religious teaching.

That's my position based on my personal experience, belief and chosen path for the last 29 years.

I am not concerned with whomever chooses not to be Christian. I am only concerned with my right to proclaim my belief and my desire to associate with like-minded people.

I have grandchildren from my wife's offspring, her first marriage. The oldest, 19 YOF, was not raised with any religious teaching and she is a cold-hearted, self-centered young lady. I am concerned for her welfare. The other nine are much younger and they were raised in church. They are warm, fun loving, lovable kids to be around. The difference is overwhelmingly obvious.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Christianity is a faith; Islam is a faith;

Agreed

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secular humanism is a faith.

Disagree. In the (essentially religious) sense in which I believe you are using/defining the word "faith", Secular Humanism is not a "faith". While it is a philosophy, not all guiding philosophies of human ethics and conduct are "faiths".

Secular Humanism

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Christians are forced to proclaim their faith in every venue possible for the love and concern of their children and families. They don't trust Islam and they have no faith in secular humanism.

That tendency is more universal among the various religions - i.e., in addition to practitioners of Christianity, than you might realize. To an extent, it's a matter of degree: some religions (or denominations thereof) are relatively more actively proselytizing in practice; others are relatively less so. And my own 50+ years of life experience has taught me that most religions don't trust each other.

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As far as public education goes I believe this, the incidence of mental illness has increased in direct proportion to the decrease in religious teaching.

I'd be interested in seeing some objective, scientific and peer-reviewed evidence of that.

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I have grandchildren from my wife's offspring, her first marriage. The oldest, 19 YOF, was not raised with any religious teaching and she is a cold-hearted, self-centered young lady. I am concerned for her welfare. The other nine are much younger and they were raised in church. They are warm, fun loving, lovable kids to be around. The difference is overwhelmingly obvious.

Of course you're the one who knows her; but I am not persuaded that you're not seeing a circumstantial correlation and presumptively mistaking it for evidence of causation. Or in plain English, maybe that's just the way she naturally is. My two young adult kids are both female, they're both our biological children and are full-siblings to each other, they're close in age, we raised them both the same way, and they went to the same schools - but they have very different personalities. That's just the way they are.

[jclalor 12]

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As far as public education goes I believe this, the incidence of mental illness has increased in direct proportion to the decrease in religious teaching.

The different criteria for the daignosis of mental illness has risen dramaticaly in recent years, probably about the same rate that you think society is crumbling.

I woud submit that religion is a mental illness:

A delusion is defined as a false personal belief based on incorrect inference about external reality and firmly sustained despite of what everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary

[jclalor 12]

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I have grandchildren from my wife's offspring, her first marriage. The oldest, 19 YOF, was not raised with any religious teaching and she is a cold-hearted, self-centered young lady. I am concerned for her welfare. The other nine are much younger and they were raised in church. They are warm, fun loving, lovable kids to be around. The difference is overwhelmingly obvious.

[mnealtx 0]

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In America faith-driven abstinence programs deny them that right -- "As a Christian I will only help you if you do what I say". The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.

Prove your claim that the majority of teen pregnancy programs are faith based and only teach abstinence.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jclalor 12]

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Prove your claim that the majority of teen pregnancy programs are faith based and only teach abstinence.

[jclalor 12]

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I have grandchildren from my wife's offspring, her first marriage. The oldest, 19 YO, was not raised with any religious teaching and she is a cold-hearted, self-centered young lady. I am concerned for her welfare. The other nine are much younger and they were raised in church. They are warm, fun loving, lovable kids to be around. The difference is overwhelmingly obvious.

[mnealtx 0]

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Prove your claim that the majority of teen pregnancy programs are faith based and only teach abstinence.

I don't believe the claim was made that the majority of programs are faith based ( though not for lack of trying by the previous administration). The US teen pregnancy rate speaks for it's self.

[jclalor 12]

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***Prove your claim that the majority of teen pregnancy programs are faith based and only teach abstinence.

I don't believe the claim was made that the majority of programs are faith based ( though not for lack of trying by the previous administration). The US teen pregnancy rate speaks for it's self.

Odd, that's exactly the tie you made in your last post - you know, that part where you say "The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy".

[mnealtx 0]

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***Prove your claim that the majority of teen pregnancy programs are faith based and only teach abstinence.

I don't believe the claim was made that the majority of programs are faith based ( though not for lack of trying by the previous administration). The US teen pregnancy rate speaks for it's self.

Odd, that's exactly the tie you made in your last post - you know, that part where you say "The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy".

Did you mean proof like this?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/219818

[FallingOsh 0]

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Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed.

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Highly doubtful.

Right... cause we're the first generation in history to finally figure it out.

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Some details may help clarify some theories, but things like basic chemistry and the speed of light certainly aren't going to change a single bit.

Maybe. Maybe not. I'm sure the scientist 100 years ago figured that none of their "truths" would ever change a bit.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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That's the same point I was making. You just switched the words truth and fact.

If the facts are always right then we can't call anything out of a science book fact. We can call them "what we think are thruths," but not facts since the term "fact" indicates ultimate understanding.

My point, which you seem to agree with, is that science is not fact. It is our understanding of the facts. Which, in your definition, is just a temporary truth. That's why I always chuckle when people completely discount religion because they "only believe what experimental evidence shows." Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed. Congratulations on taking the more realistic approach.

That's why I always chuckle when people completely discount SANTA CLAUS because they "only believe what experimental evidence shows." Well... 100 years from now everything you think is true will likely have changed. Congratulations on taking the more realistic approach.

[kallend 2,150]

Please provide proof that the money spent on "faith based" programs has been effective in preventing teen pregnancies and has not just been taxpayer money down the drain of the religious right.

The burden is on those that want these programs funded to prove that they work.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Laszloimage 0]

Very nice post!
I’m not saying it because “I’m on your side” but because it’s based on pure data from other countries around the world. So there’s lot of cross reference to make compression.
The whole point is religious people always go back to the “my faith” point of view,
They ignore or deny important information as soon as it questions their established belief "Because it can't be true".
I never experienced a religious person seriously examing or considering information from other cultures as soon as it doesn’t fit into their dogma. Religion makes judgment looking at only one side of the coin.
But a simple coin has two sides, and it also has an edge what nobody ever mentions…
Reality has many dimensions. …maybe I’m getting to metaphoric here.
Sadly most of the Americans can’t even point out the listed countries with their index finger on the globe without searching and reading through all the text on it.

[jclalor 12]

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******Prove your claim that the majority of teen pregnancy programs are faith based and only teach abstinence.

I don't believe the claim was made that the majority of programs are faith based ( though not for lack of trying by the previous administration). The US teen pregnancy rate speaks for it's self.

Odd, that's exactly the tie you made in your last post - you know, that part where you say "The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy".

Did you mean proof like this?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/219818

According to your article, even at the beginnings of the 'abstinence surge' (in the 90's, btw), the US had the most teen pregnancies. The only reference that I can find for percentages was mention of roughly 1/3 of teens receiving abstinence based counseling in 1999.

Neither datum appears to support your claims.

[jclalor 12]

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They ignore or deny important information as soon as it questions their established belief "Because it can't be true".

Religion in a nut shell

[RonD1120 62]

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Christianity is a faith; Islam is a faith;

Agreed

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secular humanism is a faith.

Disagree. In the (essentially religious) sense in which I believe you are using/defining the word "faith", Secular Humanism is not a "faith". While it is a philosophy, not all guiding philosophies of human ethics and conduct are "faiths".

Secular Humanism

If you base your hope in it, it is a faith.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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I woud submit that religion is a mental illness:

A delusion is defined as a false personal belief based on incorrect inference about external reality and firmly sustained despite of what everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary

You might want to check the DSM-IV.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Christianity is a faith; Islam is a faith;

Agreed

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secular humanism is a faith.

Disagree. In the (essentially religious) sense in which I believe you are using/defining the word "faith", Secular Humanism is not a "faith". While it is a philosophy, not all guiding philosophies of human ethics and conduct are "faiths".

Secular Humanism

If you base your hope in it, it is a faith.

Personally, I disagree. You and I clearly use different standards to define the word "faith", as it's commonly used in modern English, in the context within which it's being used in this thread.

[RonD1120 62]

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I have grandchildren from my wife's offspring, her first marriage. The oldest, 19 YOF, was not raised with any religious teaching and she is a cold-hearted, self-centered young lady. I am concerned for her welfare. The other nine are much younger and they were raised in church. They are warm, fun loving, lovable kids to be around. The difference is overwhelmingly obvious.

Then expalin:

Several weeks ago, a ground-breaking study on religious belief and social well-being was published in the Journal of Religion & Society. Comparing 18 prosperous democracies from the U.S. to New Zealand, author Gregory S Paul quietly demolished the myth that faith strengthens society.

Drawing on a wide range of studies to cross-match faith – measured by belief in God and acceptance of evolution – with homicide and sexual behavior, Paul found that secular societies have lower rates of violence and teenage pregnancy than societies where many people profess belief in God.

Top of the class, in both atheism and good behavior, come the Japanese. Over eighty percent accept evolution and fewer than ten percent are certain that God exists. Despite its size – over a hundred million people – Japan is one of the least crime-prone countries in the world. It also has the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy of any developed nation.

(Teenage pregnancy has less tragic consequences than violence but it is usually unwanted, and it is frequently associated with deprivation among both mothers and children. In general, it is a Bad Thing.)

Next in line are the Norwegians, British, Germans and Dutch. At least sixty percent accept evolution as a fact and fewer than one in three are convinced that there is a deity. There is little teenage pregnancy , although the Brits, with over 40 pregnancies per 1,000 girls a year, do twice as badly as the others. Homicide rates are also low -- around 1-2 victims per 100,000 people a year.

At the other end of the scale comes America. Over 50 percent of Americans believe in God, and only 40 percent accept some form of evolution (many believe it had a helping hand from the Deity). The U.S. has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy and homicide rates are at least five times greater than in Europe and ten times higher than in Japan.

All this information points to a strong correlation between faith and antisocial behavior -- a correlation so strong that there is good reason to suppose that religious belief does more harm than good.

At first glance that is a preposterous suggestion, given that religions preach non-violence and sexual restraint. However, close inspection reveals a different story. Faith tends to weaken rather than strengthen people’s ability to participate in society. That makes it less likely they will respect social customs and laws.

All believers learn that God holds them responsible for their actions. So far so good, but for many, belief absolves them of all other responsibilities. Consciously or subconsciously, those who are "born again" or "chosen" have diminished respect for others who do not share their sect or their faith. Convinced that only the Bible offers "truth", they lose their intellectual curiosity and their ability to reason. Their priority becomes not the world they live in but themselves.

The more people prioritize themselves rather than those around them, the weaker society becomes and the greater the likelihood of antisocial behavior. Hence gun laws which encourage Americans to see each other not as fellow human beings who deserve protection, but as potential aggressors who deserve to die. And hence a health care system which looks after the wealthy rather than the ill.

As for intimacy… Faith encourages ignorance rather than responsible behavior. In other countries, intimacy education includes contraception, reducing the risk of unwanted pregnancies. Such an approach recognizes that young people have the right to make their own choices and helps them make decisions that benefit society as a whole. In America faith-driven abstinence programs deny them that right -- "As a Christian I will only help you if you do what I say". The result is soaring rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.


Show me ANY study where non-beleivers are more law abiding than beleivers.

[RonD1120 62]

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I really take exception with this,

Eh, you have no right to take exception to my concerns regarding my family. None of your business.

Today is Sunday. Just as a suggestion, go to a nearby church and just listen. Don't make any commitments, just listen.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,596]

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If you base your hope in it, it is a faith.

Who is basing their hope in Secular Humanism? And hope for what?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,596]

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My, my, my, personal revelatory experience is the explanation.

You just said that being raised in church vs no religious education was the explanation.

It helps credibility to be able to keep track of your own arguments. Just sayin'.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

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You just said that being raised in church vs no religious education was the explanation.

Nope, wrong concept.

I would help you if you keep track of all my posts. Just a suggestion.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,596]

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You just said that being raised in church vs no religious education was the explanation.

Nope, wrong concept.

I would help you if you keep track of all my posts. Just a suggestion.

I am keeping track. It's right there in black and white.

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The oldest, 19 YOF, was not raised with any religious teaching and she is a cold-hearted, self-centered young lady. I am concerned for her welfare. The other nine are much younger and they were raised in church. They are warm, fun loving, lovable kids to be around. The difference is overwhelmingly obvious.

You specifically mentioned religious education vs the lack of it. jclalor replied directly to that, and then you responded with an extremely condescending post that shifted the goalposts towards personal revelatory experience. This brought you a double opportunity to a) insult him and b) completely ignore the fact that he's provided a full study that contradicted you anecdotal evidence.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?