jclalor 12 #1 January 22, 2010 The US is now negotiating with the Taliban to try and get them to play a role in Afghan politics? When we have to count on the Taliban to stabalize Afghanistan, I think we are pretty well screwed. Defence secretary Gates: "The question is whether they are prepared to play a legitimate role in the political fabric of Afghanistan going forward, meaning participating in elections, meaning not assassinating local officials and killing families." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34995797/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #2 January 22, 2010 Well, they are part of the political fabric. They ran the country for several years. Even the most brutal regimes tend to leave behind significant numbers of supporters and sympathisers when they're gone (Like how a lot of Russians still look back fondly at the USSR), and ignoring that surely isn't sensible. (Not that I'm saying they should institute a power sharing co-operative or anything, and I very much doubt that's anything like what he meant)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #3 January 22, 2010 Quote The US is now negotiating with the Taliban to try and get them to play a role in Afghan politics? When we have to count on the Taliban to stabalize Afghanistan, I think we are pretty well screwed. Defence secretary Gates: "The question is whether they are prepared to play a legitimate role in the political fabric of Afghanistan going forward, meaning participating in elections, meaning not assassinating local officials and killing families." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34995797/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/ How is that different from the IRA in Ireland?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #4 January 22, 2010 QuoteHow is that different from the IRA in Ireland? The IRA didn't hold public executions in their soccer stadiums. The IRA didn't execute women for being women. But Afghanistan is much more challenging than N. Ireland. No easy answers that is for sure. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #5 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteHow is that different from the IRA in Ireland? QuoteThe IRA didn't hold public executions in their soccer stadiums. No, they did their executions a bit more privately, given that they were never the de facto government. But they did them. QuoteThe IRA didn't execute women for being women. They executed plenty of people for being presumed Protestants, through methods like bombings that did not discriminate by gender or age. QuoteBut Afghanistan is much more challenging than Ireland. No easy answers that is for sure. No doubt. When the US occupied Iraq, its blanket purge of Ba'athists from every level of government and administration proved short-sighted and poorly workable, because it effectively purged so much of the existing brain trust and institutional memory that there were damned few experienced people left to run the infrastructure. Historically, MacArthur had a smoother time governing post-WW2 Japan than the Allies did governing post-WW2 Germany, because MacArthur didn't purge nearly as many officials and administrators in Japan as were purged in Germany. We can either learn lessons of history or ignore them at our peril. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #6 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuote QuoteThe US is now negotiating with the Taliban to try and get them to play a role in Afghan politics? When we have to count on the Taliban to stabalize Afghanistan, I think we are pretty well screwed. Defence secretary Gates: "The question is whether they are prepared to play a legitimate role in the political fabric of Afghanistan going forward, meaning participating in elections, meaning not assassinating local officials and killing families." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34995797/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/ How is that different from the IRA in Ireland? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, but Ireland did not involve our troops and our hundreds of billions of dollars. The conflict in Ireland was more of a secular dispute than one of religion and to some level it has been resolved. Afghanistan is all about religion.and when you are fighting a group that is willing to sacrifice to the level that the Taliban is willing to sacrifice, you're gonna have big problems. For the most part a secular man you can reasoned with (with some notable exceptions). I will take a secular terrorist over a religious fundamentalist any time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #7 January 22, 2010 The conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. comparing Apples and Oranges ... again What's happening in Afghanistan is different than what happened in N. Ireland. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #8 January 22, 2010 >What's happening in Afghanistan is different than what happened in N. Ireland. You're right - religion had everything to do with the Troubles. Compare that to Afghanistan, where religion has nothing to do with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #9 January 22, 2010 Quote Compare that to Afghanistan, where religion has nothing to do with it. If you want to compare fruit to fruit, then yes there is a religious conflict in Afghanistan just as there was a religious conflict in N. Ireland. But that is pretty generic comparison. Afghanistan is an Islamic nation. There are those in Afghanistan (let's call them the Taliban) who want strict Sharia Law (heck their interpretations of Sharia Law are the most radical the world has ever seen) and then there are the Islamics in Afghanistan who want to continue practicing their Muslim faith, but they do not want this strict Sharia Law interpretation where public executions are carried out for the most minor of offenses. Hardly the same scenario that was occurring in N. Ireland where the Catholics wanted to united with Ireland and the Protestants want to stay aligned to the United Kingdom. There was no Sharia Law issues in N Ireland, there was no question of Catholics or Protestants taking control of Pakistan's nukes. But hey this is the internet where people want to argue ... so sure why not. Afghanistan is just like N Ireland ... lets take sides. I can't talk about US Liberals, but up here in Canuckistan, Canadian Liberals have such hatred for Conservatives that they have decided to take sides with their Taliban buddies. Canadian Liberals freak out when a Taliban is taken prisoner, but rejoice when the Taliban attack the invading crusaders. The hatred Canadian Liberals have towards Conservatives is so strong, that Canadian Liberals seem to think if they treat their Taliban friends nicely, the Taliban will be open to Canadian Liberal's morals (same sex marriage, drug usage, infidelity, pornography ... you know all those things Taliban love doing ... ). Afghanistan is FUBARed ... damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't have the answers ...except I do know Liberals have much more in common with Conservatives than they do with the Taliban and it would be nice if Canadian Liberals stopped thinking of NATO as crusanders and stopped thinking of the Taliban is their political allies. The Taliban want to kill Liberals just as much as they want to kill Conservatives and they the Taliban are laughing the way Liberals and Conservatives continue to wage war against each other. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #10 January 22, 2010 > Afghanistan is just like N Ireland . . . No, it's not. Nor is it true that there is nothing we can learn in Ireland that can help us in Afghanistan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #11 January 22, 2010 Was there Nukes in N Ireland? Was there a risk that the Catholics or the Protestants would gain control of these nukes? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #12 January 22, 2010 >Was there Nukes in N Ireland? Nope. Were there bombings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #13 January 22, 2010 There are bombs going off in every war. People dying in every conflict. Take the lowest common denominator and you can compare anything you want. That still does not resolve the Afghanistan issue. It's FUBAR'ed ... damned if you do, damned if you don't. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #14 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. From wikipedia: The original conflict between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland was not truly a matter of religion -- it was a matter of social class. Put quite briefly, the majority of the population in Ireland, post 1000 A. D., was Catholic. They never underwent the church reform that England did in the 1500s. Thus, by the 1600s, England = Anglican (Protestant), and Ireland = Catholic. When England began to establish plantations in Ireland and establish themselves as the ruling class, they often did it in a relatively unpleasant and domineering fashion, making themselves unpopular with their new subjects in the manner of America and India. Hostility arouse between Catholics and Protestants in this way not because the religions themselves bore marked differences, but because these denominations were attached to two very different classes. Intermarriages were frowned upon, not for spiritual reasons, but because the Protestant was marrying below their class. This hostility between the denominations continued into the present for many of the same reasons. Protestantism represents the continued presence of England in Northern Irish affairs, while Catholicism bears the stigma of being the religion of the poor, the rebels, and the socialists intent on a free Ireland. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #15 January 22, 2010 Quote When the US occupied Iraq, its blanket purge of Ba'athists from every level of government and administration proved short-sighted and poorly workable, because it effectively purged so much of the existing brain trust and institutional memory that there were damned few experienced people left to run the infrastructure. Historically, MacArthur had a smoother time governing post-WW2 Japan than the Allies did governing post-WW2 Germany, because MacArthur didn't purge nearly as many officials and administrators in Japan as were purged in Germany. On the other hand the purge of Nazis was complete and unending to this day. The question is are the Taliban like the German army or are they closer to the Nazi party? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #16 January 22, 2010 QuoteOn the other hand the purge of Nazis was complete and unending to this day. I disagree. Virtually every position of civil and military managerial responsibility, including virtually the entire officer corps in the military, required at least paper membership in the Party. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #17 January 22, 2010 Quote The conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. comparing AppleGreens and Oranges ... again FIFY"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #18 January 23, 2010 QuoteThe Taliban initially enjoyed enormous good will from Afghans weary of the corruption, brutality, and the incessant fighting of Mujahideen warlords. Two contrasting narratives explain the beginnings of the Taliban.[20] One is that the rape and murder of boys and girls from a family traveling to Kandahar or a similar outrage by Mujahideen bandits sparked Mullah Omar and his students to vow to rid Afghanistan of these criminals taliban In a lawless area, they have provided stability and law. (whether Westerners agree with it or not) There was a vacuum and they filled it. Until the govt can provide safety for its people, they will exist. In some places, the govt has only had a token presence always. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #19 January 23, 2010 Quote> Afghanistan is just like N Ireland . . . No, it's not. Nor is it true that there is nothing we can learn in Ireland that can help us in Afghanistan. Sinn Fein is most definitely part of Ireland's political fabric,and it is the political wing of the IRA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
jclalor 12 #6 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuote QuoteThe US is now negotiating with the Taliban to try and get them to play a role in Afghan politics? When we have to count on the Taliban to stabalize Afghanistan, I think we are pretty well screwed. Defence secretary Gates: "The question is whether they are prepared to play a legitimate role in the political fabric of Afghanistan going forward, meaning participating in elections, meaning not assassinating local officials and killing families." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34995797/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/ How is that different from the IRA in Ireland? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, but Ireland did not involve our troops and our hundreds of billions of dollars. The conflict in Ireland was more of a secular dispute than one of religion and to some level it has been resolved. Afghanistan is all about religion.and when you are fighting a group that is willing to sacrifice to the level that the Taliban is willing to sacrifice, you're gonna have big problems. For the most part a secular man you can reasoned with (with some notable exceptions). I will take a secular terrorist over a religious fundamentalist any time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 January 22, 2010 The conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. comparing Apples and Oranges ... again What's happening in Afghanistan is different than what happened in N. Ireland. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #8 January 22, 2010 >What's happening in Afghanistan is different than what happened in N. Ireland. You're right - religion had everything to do with the Troubles. Compare that to Afghanistan, where religion has nothing to do with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #9 January 22, 2010 Quote Compare that to Afghanistan, where religion has nothing to do with it. If you want to compare fruit to fruit, then yes there is a religious conflict in Afghanistan just as there was a religious conflict in N. Ireland. But that is pretty generic comparison. Afghanistan is an Islamic nation. There are those in Afghanistan (let's call them the Taliban) who want strict Sharia Law (heck their interpretations of Sharia Law are the most radical the world has ever seen) and then there are the Islamics in Afghanistan who want to continue practicing their Muslim faith, but they do not want this strict Sharia Law interpretation where public executions are carried out for the most minor of offenses. Hardly the same scenario that was occurring in N. Ireland where the Catholics wanted to united with Ireland and the Protestants want to stay aligned to the United Kingdom. There was no Sharia Law issues in N Ireland, there was no question of Catholics or Protestants taking control of Pakistan's nukes. But hey this is the internet where people want to argue ... so sure why not. Afghanistan is just like N Ireland ... lets take sides. I can't talk about US Liberals, but up here in Canuckistan, Canadian Liberals have such hatred for Conservatives that they have decided to take sides with their Taliban buddies. Canadian Liberals freak out when a Taliban is taken prisoner, but rejoice when the Taliban attack the invading crusaders. The hatred Canadian Liberals have towards Conservatives is so strong, that Canadian Liberals seem to think if they treat their Taliban friends nicely, the Taliban will be open to Canadian Liberal's morals (same sex marriage, drug usage, infidelity, pornography ... you know all those things Taliban love doing ... ). Afghanistan is FUBARed ... damned if you do, damned if you don't. I don't have the answers ...except I do know Liberals have much more in common with Conservatives than they do with the Taliban and it would be nice if Canadian Liberals stopped thinking of NATO as crusanders and stopped thinking of the Taliban is their political allies. The Taliban want to kill Liberals just as much as they want to kill Conservatives and they the Taliban are laughing the way Liberals and Conservatives continue to wage war against each other. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #10 January 22, 2010 > Afghanistan is just like N Ireland . . . No, it's not. Nor is it true that there is nothing we can learn in Ireland that can help us in Afghanistan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #11 January 22, 2010 Was there Nukes in N Ireland? Was there a risk that the Catholics or the Protestants would gain control of these nukes? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #12 January 22, 2010 >Was there Nukes in N Ireland? Nope. Were there bombings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #13 January 22, 2010 There are bombs going off in every war. People dying in every conflict. Take the lowest common denominator and you can compare anything you want. That still does not resolve the Afghanistan issue. It's FUBAR'ed ... damned if you do, damned if you don't. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #14 January 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. From wikipedia: The original conflict between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland was not truly a matter of religion -- it was a matter of social class. Put quite briefly, the majority of the population in Ireland, post 1000 A. D., was Catholic. They never underwent the church reform that England did in the 1500s. Thus, by the 1600s, England = Anglican (Protestant), and Ireland = Catholic. When England began to establish plantations in Ireland and establish themselves as the ruling class, they often did it in a relatively unpleasant and domineering fashion, making themselves unpopular with their new subjects in the manner of America and India. Hostility arouse between Catholics and Protestants in this way not because the religions themselves bore marked differences, but because these denominations were attached to two very different classes. Intermarriages were frowned upon, not for spiritual reasons, but because the Protestant was marrying below their class. This hostility between the denominations continued into the present for many of the same reasons. Protestantism represents the continued presence of England in Northern Irish affairs, while Catholicism bears the stigma of being the religion of the poor, the rebels, and the socialists intent on a free Ireland. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #15 January 22, 2010 Quote When the US occupied Iraq, its blanket purge of Ba'athists from every level of government and administration proved short-sighted and poorly workable, because it effectively purged so much of the existing brain trust and institutional memory that there were damned few experienced people left to run the infrastructure. Historically, MacArthur had a smoother time governing post-WW2 Japan than the Allies did governing post-WW2 Germany, because MacArthur didn't purge nearly as many officials and administrators in Japan as were purged in Germany. On the other hand the purge of Nazis was complete and unending to this day. The question is are the Taliban like the German army or are they closer to the Nazi party? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #16 January 22, 2010 QuoteOn the other hand the purge of Nazis was complete and unending to this day. I disagree. Virtually every position of civil and military managerial responsibility, including virtually the entire officer corps in the military, required at least paper membership in the Party. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #17 January 22, 2010 Quote The conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. comparing AppleGreens and Oranges ... again FIFY"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #18 January 23, 2010 QuoteThe Taliban initially enjoyed enormous good will from Afghans weary of the corruption, brutality, and the incessant fighting of Mujahideen warlords. Two contrasting narratives explain the beginnings of the Taliban.[20] One is that the rape and murder of boys and girls from a family traveling to Kandahar or a similar outrage by Mujahideen bandits sparked Mullah Omar and his students to vow to rid Afghanistan of these criminals taliban In a lawless area, they have provided stability and law. (whether Westerners agree with it or not) There was a vacuum and they filled it. Until the govt can provide safety for its people, they will exist. In some places, the govt has only had a token presence always. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #19 January 23, 2010 Quote> Afghanistan is just like N Ireland . . . No, it's not. Nor is it true that there is nothing we can learn in Ireland that can help us in Afghanistan. Sinn Fein is most definitely part of Ireland's political fabric,and it is the political wing of the IRA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Andrewwhyte 1 #15 January 22, 2010 Quote When the US occupied Iraq, its blanket purge of Ba'athists from every level of government and administration proved short-sighted and poorly workable, because it effectively purged so much of the existing brain trust and institutional memory that there were damned few experienced people left to run the infrastructure. Historically, MacArthur had a smoother time governing post-WW2 Japan than the Allies did governing post-WW2 Germany, because MacArthur didn't purge nearly as many officials and administrators in Japan as were purged in Germany. On the other hand the purge of Nazis was complete and unending to this day. The question is are the Taliban like the German army or are they closer to the Nazi party? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #16 January 22, 2010 QuoteOn the other hand the purge of Nazis was complete and unending to this day. I disagree. Virtually every position of civil and military managerial responsibility, including virtually the entire officer corps in the military, required at least paper membership in the Party. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #17 January 22, 2010 Quote The conflict in Northern Ireland was NOT secular. It was between the Romain Catholics who wanted to unite with Ireland and the Protestants who wanted to stay a part of the United Kingdom. comparing AppleGreens and Oranges ... again FIFY"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #18 January 23, 2010 QuoteThe Taliban initially enjoyed enormous good will from Afghans weary of the corruption, brutality, and the incessant fighting of Mujahideen warlords. Two contrasting narratives explain the beginnings of the Taliban.[20] One is that the rape and murder of boys and girls from a family traveling to Kandahar or a similar outrage by Mujahideen bandits sparked Mullah Omar and his students to vow to rid Afghanistan of these criminals taliban In a lawless area, they have provided stability and law. (whether Westerners agree with it or not) There was a vacuum and they filled it. Until the govt can provide safety for its people, they will exist. In some places, the govt has only had a token presence always. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #19 January 23, 2010 Quote> Afghanistan is just like N Ireland . . . No, it's not. Nor is it true that there is nothing we can learn in Ireland that can help us in Afghanistan. Sinn Fein is most definitely part of Ireland's political fabric,and it is the political wing of the IRA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
