champu 1 #51 January 7, 2010 Quote>The only part of the system that worked was everything AFTER the guy >tried to detonate the bomb. Exactly. The system there - the actions of the passengers and the crew - DID work. Which is what she said, if you read anything beyond those three words. Of course with a hunk of plastic explosives in your lap that's burning instead of exploding as you (and whoever else) intended, it's highly unlikely you're going to fix the device and detonate what's left of it. So it's hard to say the passengers' actions, notable as they may have been, actually saved the day. It's perfectly legitimate to consider "mobbing" a last line of defense in the system. In fact, there'd be even more ridiculous items banned if the TSA had to ensure nothing was allowed on board that could allow take over of an airplane full of completely submissive people. But I can picture the facepalms around the meeting room table when the guy with the laser pointer highlights the box in his flow diagram on a powerpoint chart that reads, "terrorist plan fails of its own accord." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,173 #52 January 7, 2010 >Only you think that the passengers were being blamed for this event. Only you referred to their actions (and the crew's actions) as "less shitty." >Ridiculous is your notion that it should have to fall to the passengers to >do this. It shouldn't have to, any more than you should have to rely on your reserve. But if you do have a mal, and you use your reserve to land safely, it would be absurd to claim that "your system failed" or that the reserve didn't work well, it was merely a little less shitty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #53 January 7, 2010 QuoteIt shouldn't have to, any more than you should have to rely on your reserve. But if you do have a mal, and you use your reserve to land safely, it would be absurd to claim that "your system failed" or that the reserve didn't work well, it was merely a little less shitty. But the fact a citizen saved the day is not the system "working" in any way shape or form unless the official policy has citizens jumping up and beating down an attacker written as a procedure.... And I have looked some and never seen, "Big guy beats bad guy's butt"written anywhere. The "system" failed... A citizen saved the day."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #54 January 7, 2010 Quote>Only you think that the passengers were being blamed for this event. Only you referred to their actions (and the crew's actions) as "less shitty." horseshit. I said the outcome was, not their actions. Quote >Ridiculous is your notion that it should have to fall to the passengers to >do this. It shouldn't have to, any more than you should have to rely on your reserve. But if you do have a mal, and you use your reserve to land safely, it would be absurd to claim that "your system failed" or that the reserve didn't work well, it was merely a little less shitty. No, this is a case where the skydiver had a spinning mal and was saved by crashing into a fern tree. Or that pregnant gal in the midwest a few years ago. Good example of less shitty than dying. If passenger intervention is supposed to be the reserve, you're fucked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,173 #55 January 7, 2010 >But the fact a citizen saved the day is not the system "working" in >any way shape or form . . If you also claim that using your reserve is not the system "working" in any shape or form then yes, your statement makes sense. >The "system" failed... A citizen saved the day. So if a citizen with a gun stops a robbery - the system failed? Well, I guess guns aren't all that useful after all; they just contribute to that failure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #56 January 7, 2010 Quote>>The "system" failed... A citizen saved the day. So if a citizen with a gun stops a robbery - the system failed? Well, I guess guns aren't all that useful after all; they just contribute to that failure. Your anology might be valid - *IF* a cop had frisked down the robber and missed his gun.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #57 January 7, 2010 Quote WTF...... since when did the terrorists we are facing now do anything in the name if Jesus? I know that has happened in the past but I think it is comical you just cannot stop yourself from taking a shot at religion or specifically Christianity. You do remember why his father reported him? I'll gladly remind you: because of his extreme religious beliefs, which led him to going into the plane with explosives in his underwear. So taking a shot at religion seems to be very justified here. Regarding Christianity - for a person who is not religious they're basically not different from Muslims - just praying a different imaginable Santa Claus, while some also commit crimes in his name.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #58 January 7, 2010 Quote Calling the loss of 37 passengers and 7 crew a success is loser talk. If you compare it to the option to flow the plane in another large building (which presumably was the plan) and killing 1,000 more people, would you call it failure?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #59 January 7, 2010 QuoteQuote Calling the loss of 37 passengers and 7 crew a success is loser talk. If you compare it to the option to flow the plane in another large building (which presumably was the plan) and killing 1,000 more people, would you call it failure? Seeing as how it was a BOMB and not an attempt to seize control of the plane, I doubt that was 'the plan'. I'm certain the timing of the event WAS selected for maximum damage, however (over land vs. over water).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #60 January 7, 2010 Quote I don't expect perfect protection - that's impossible. But I *do* expect 'the system' to act on the type of 'red flags' that were surrounding the Underoo Bomber. There were not a lot of them. As I said, I routinely flied this route (AMS-DTW) last two years, and at least in half of cases I do not have luggage and have one-way tickets. I don't believe he had no passport or no visa as the passport/visa check is pretty meticulous in AMS, and I do not know whether DHS shares the "warning" information with AMS as there may be privacy issues. I also doubt those lists are useful - during my life I've had five passports, and EACH of them spelled my first and last names differently using Latin alphabet, and in some cases difference was significant - I have seen my first name spelled as HEORHIY, GEORGE, GEORGIY and so on, so I wouldn't blame the list for that.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #61 January 8, 2010 QuoteQuote Calling the loss of 37 passengers and 7 crew a success is loser talk. If you compare it to the option to flow the plane in another large building (which presumably was the plan) and killing 1,000 more people, would you call it failure? That's exactly what I'm saying. Dozens of Americans (or foreign citizens for that matter) dying in a terrorist attack is a failure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #62 January 8, 2010 QuoteThat's exactly what I'm saying. Dozens of Americans (or foreign citizens for that matter) dying in a terrorist attack is a failure. It is if you consider the alternative of "plane landed safely and nobody got hurt". This, however, was not a viable alternative in that situation.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #63 January 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat's exactly what I'm saying. Dozens of Americans (or foreign citizens for that matter) dying in a terrorist attack is a failure. It is if you consider the alternative of "plane landed safely and nobody got hurt". This, however, was not a viable alternative in that situation. Like many fuckups- once you get past a certain point, you've blown your chances for success. Like looking for an LZ after you get below 1000ft. So if you do that, and break a leg landing through the vineyard, is that a success? Of course not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #64 January 8, 2010 QuoteIf you also claim that using your reserve is not the system "working" in any shape or form then yes, your statement makes sense. Your position only makes sense if you consider a civilian as part of the system. My reserve IS part of the system by design. Your argument is along the lines that my main failed and you swooped by and grabbed me and saved me then claiming that action is part of the system. QuoteSo if a citizen with a gun stops a robbery - the system failed? The police, justice, and FFL systems.... Yep, massive failure. Quote Well, I guess guns aren't all that useful after all; they just contribute to that failure. The guy with the gun in your scenario and the guy that subdued the attacker are both examples of a person outside the system saving the day. In both cases, the system failed. In both cases a civilian saved the day.... Unless you seem to think CHL holders are a vital part of the system."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #65 January 11, 2010 Quote>"The system worked!" The system did indeed work for that incident. On 9/11/01 - not so much. I don't get it...what part of the system "worked"? Secondly..."the pilot of the airplane decided to fly to Dublin anyway even after being told that an explosive was in his aircraft's checked luggage.' I mean WTF??????????????? The story should have read EX-pilot. The system "worked"????????????????My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites timmyfitz 0 #66 January 11, 2010 QuoteQuote>"The system worked!" The system did indeed work for that incident. On 9/11/01 - not so much. I don't get it...what part of the system "worked"? Secondly..."the pilot of the airplane decided to fly to Dublin anyway even after being told that an explosive was in his aircraft's checked luggage.' I mean WTF??????????????? The story should have read EX-pilot. The system "worked"???????????????? You have to subscribe to bill's idea of who comprises the system. It is his belief that every human being on earth is part of the government system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites champu 1 #67 January 12, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote>"The system worked!" The system did indeed work for that incident. On 9/11/01 - not so much. I don't get it...what part of the system "worked"? You have to subscribe to bill's idea of who comprises the system. It is his belief that every human being on earth is part of the government system. Well, more importantly you have to understand that this thread was IMMEDIATELY hijacked and contains little actual discussion about the Slovak screw-up. I don't think anyone is arguing that any system did anything in that incident. Hell the communication was so bad the poor guy got detained by Irish police for three hours. Regarding who is considered part of the system, as I said before I think "mobbing" is an acceptable planned defense for certain attacks. It allows security personnel to take their minds off things like snow globes and small swiss army knives that don't really pose a threat to a plane with a few non-submissive passengers and pay more attention to catching things like shotgun shells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 3,173 #55 January 7, 2010 >But the fact a citizen saved the day is not the system "working" in >any way shape or form . . If you also claim that using your reserve is not the system "working" in any shape or form then yes, your statement makes sense. >The "system" failed... A citizen saved the day. So if a citizen with a gun stops a robbery - the system failed? Well, I guess guns aren't all that useful after all; they just contribute to that failure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #56 January 7, 2010 Quote>>The "system" failed... A citizen saved the day. So if a citizen with a gun stops a robbery - the system failed? Well, I guess guns aren't all that useful after all; they just contribute to that failure. Your anology might be valid - *IF* a cop had frisked down the robber and missed his gun.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #57 January 7, 2010 Quote WTF...... since when did the terrorists we are facing now do anything in the name if Jesus? I know that has happened in the past but I think it is comical you just cannot stop yourself from taking a shot at religion or specifically Christianity. You do remember why his father reported him? I'll gladly remind you: because of his extreme religious beliefs, which led him to going into the plane with explosives in his underwear. So taking a shot at religion seems to be very justified here. Regarding Christianity - for a person who is not religious they're basically not different from Muslims - just praying a different imaginable Santa Claus, while some also commit crimes in his name.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #58 January 7, 2010 Quote Calling the loss of 37 passengers and 7 crew a success is loser talk. If you compare it to the option to flow the plane in another large building (which presumably was the plan) and killing 1,000 more people, would you call it failure?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #59 January 7, 2010 QuoteQuote Calling the loss of 37 passengers and 7 crew a success is loser talk. If you compare it to the option to flow the plane in another large building (which presumably was the plan) and killing 1,000 more people, would you call it failure? Seeing as how it was a BOMB and not an attempt to seize control of the plane, I doubt that was 'the plan'. I'm certain the timing of the event WAS selected for maximum damage, however (over land vs. over water).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #60 January 7, 2010 Quote I don't expect perfect protection - that's impossible. But I *do* expect 'the system' to act on the type of 'red flags' that were surrounding the Underoo Bomber. There were not a lot of them. As I said, I routinely flied this route (AMS-DTW) last two years, and at least in half of cases I do not have luggage and have one-way tickets. I don't believe he had no passport or no visa as the passport/visa check is pretty meticulous in AMS, and I do not know whether DHS shares the "warning" information with AMS as there may be privacy issues. I also doubt those lists are useful - during my life I've had five passports, and EACH of them spelled my first and last names differently using Latin alphabet, and in some cases difference was significant - I have seen my first name spelled as HEORHIY, GEORGE, GEORGIY and so on, so I wouldn't blame the list for that.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #61 January 8, 2010 QuoteQuote Calling the loss of 37 passengers and 7 crew a success is loser talk. If you compare it to the option to flow the plane in another large building (which presumably was the plan) and killing 1,000 more people, would you call it failure? That's exactly what I'm saying. Dozens of Americans (or foreign citizens for that matter) dying in a terrorist attack is a failure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #62 January 8, 2010 QuoteThat's exactly what I'm saying. Dozens of Americans (or foreign citizens for that matter) dying in a terrorist attack is a failure. It is if you consider the alternative of "plane landed safely and nobody got hurt". This, however, was not a viable alternative in that situation.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #63 January 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat's exactly what I'm saying. Dozens of Americans (or foreign citizens for that matter) dying in a terrorist attack is a failure. It is if you consider the alternative of "plane landed safely and nobody got hurt". This, however, was not a viable alternative in that situation. Like many fuckups- once you get past a certain point, you've blown your chances for success. Like looking for an LZ after you get below 1000ft. So if you do that, and break a leg landing through the vineyard, is that a success? Of course not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #64 January 8, 2010 QuoteIf you also claim that using your reserve is not the system "working" in any shape or form then yes, your statement makes sense. Your position only makes sense if you consider a civilian as part of the system. My reserve IS part of the system by design. Your argument is along the lines that my main failed and you swooped by and grabbed me and saved me then claiming that action is part of the system. QuoteSo if a citizen with a gun stops a robbery - the system failed? The police, justice, and FFL systems.... Yep, massive failure. Quote Well, I guess guns aren't all that useful after all; they just contribute to that failure. The guy with the gun in your scenario and the guy that subdued the attacker are both examples of a person outside the system saving the day. In both cases, the system failed. In both cases a civilian saved the day.... Unless you seem to think CHL holders are a vital part of the system."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #65 January 11, 2010 Quote>"The system worked!" The system did indeed work for that incident. On 9/11/01 - not so much. I don't get it...what part of the system "worked"? Secondly..."the pilot of the airplane decided to fly to Dublin anyway even after being told that an explosive was in his aircraft's checked luggage.' I mean WTF??????????????? The story should have read EX-pilot. The system "worked"????????????????My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #66 January 11, 2010 QuoteQuote>"The system worked!" The system did indeed work for that incident. On 9/11/01 - not so much. I don't get it...what part of the system "worked"? Secondly..."the pilot of the airplane decided to fly to Dublin anyway even after being told that an explosive was in his aircraft's checked luggage.' I mean WTF??????????????? The story should have read EX-pilot. The system "worked"???????????????? You have to subscribe to bill's idea of who comprises the system. It is his belief that every human being on earth is part of the government system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #67 January 12, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote>"The system worked!" The system did indeed work for that incident. On 9/11/01 - not so much. I don't get it...what part of the system "worked"? You have to subscribe to bill's idea of who comprises the system. It is his belief that every human being on earth is part of the government system. Well, more importantly you have to understand that this thread was IMMEDIATELY hijacked and contains little actual discussion about the Slovak screw-up. I don't think anyone is arguing that any system did anything in that incident. Hell the communication was so bad the poor guy got detained by Irish police for three hours. Regarding who is considered part of the system, as I said before I think "mobbing" is an acceptable planned defense for certain attacks. It allows security personnel to take their minds off things like snow globes and small swiss army knives that don't really pose a threat to a plane with a few non-submissive passengers and pay more attention to catching things like shotgun shells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
