jcd11235 0 #151 January 2, 2010 QuoteYou can never assume that anyone will act rationally. Ever. Assuming a criminal actor will act rationally while in the commission of a crime is a bad idea. See post 140 in this thread.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #152 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou'd be alive as well if you just gave him your money Listen GeorgeRussia, people (jogging victims, store clerks, store owners, college students, bus passengers, home owners, etc...) Have brutally died by knife/bullet/wire/axe/hammer, and the perp was looking for money. STOP THE PRESSES..You are saying that that quote "You'd be alive as well if you just gave him your money" ! And Keith appears to be suggesting he'd be dead if he didn't have a gun. Since neither assertion is provable, the argument between Mike and George is asinine and Mike's demand for "proof" is ridiculous. The only place proof either way would be available is in a parallel universe.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #153 January 2, 2010 meh... I've seen it both ways. There are way better arguments.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #154 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuote Can you elaborate? It sounds as though you are claiming that criminals are inherently unable to act rationally, at least during the commission of a crime. If that is what you mean, upon what evidence do you base your assertion? If that's not an accurate interpretation of your assertion, can you please clarify? You can never assume that anyone will act rationally. Ever. Assuming a criminal actor will act rationally while in the commission of a crime is a bad idea. Assuming anyone, including a CCW holder, will act rationally in the presence of an armed criminal is also a bad idea.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #155 January 2, 2010 QuoteThere are way better arguments. Dude, I made an observation. I didn't present any argument.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #156 January 2, 2010 right. I was referring to the "if it saves one life" argument being a poor argument. (for either side)-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #157 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote Can you elaborate? It sounds as though you are claiming that criminals are inherently unable to act rationally, at least during the commission of a crime. If that is what you mean, upon what evidence do you base your assertion? If that's not an accurate interpretation of your assertion, can you please clarify? You can never assume that anyone will act rationally. Ever. Assuming a criminal actor will act rationally while in the commission of a crime is a bad idea. Assuming anyone, including a CCW holder, will act rationally in the presence of an armed criminal is also a bad idea. agreed. Never assume anything. I will assert that I believe it is more likely that someone who has undergone tactical training, including decision making and firing - both under stress conditions, will act more rationally in a stressful and adrenaline charged situation such as a crime in progress. Also note that tactical training and concealed carry have nothing to do with each other. I know of no states that require training resembling what I mentioned in order to get a concealed carry license.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #158 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Can you elaborate? It sounds as though you are claiming that criminals are inherently unable to act rationally, at least during the commission of a crime. If that is what you mean, upon what evidence do you base your assertion? If that's not an accurate interpretation of your assertion, can you please clarify? You can never assume that anyone will act rationally. Ever. Assuming a criminal actor will act rationally while in the commission of a crime is a bad idea. Assuming anyone, including a CCW holder, will act rationally in the presence of an armed criminal is also a bad idea. agreed. Never assume anything. I will assert that I believe it is more likely that someone who has undergone tactical training, including decision making and firing - both under stress conditions, will act more rationally in a stressful and adrenaline charged situation such as a crime in progress. Also note that tactical training and concealed carry have nothing to do with each other. I know of no states that require training resembling what I mentioned in order to get a concealed carry license. Agreed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #159 January 2, 2010 Quote First is that their statistic is too old. Nov 2009 statistics (sorry, Russian only) says that 2009 "homicide" rate is ~15K, excluding December - i.e. twice less. 5 years ago is hardly too old, and if you only cut it in half (minus Dec), you're still higher than the US rate. In short, it doesn't really show success, does it? Quote And, as I said, my concern is not muggers. My concern is people like Cho and Jing Hua Wu. Why? They're the 1% case. Shouldn't be the focus of sweeping policy change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #160 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuote First is that their statistic is too old. Nov 2009 statistics (sorry, Russian only) says that 2009 "homicide" rate is ~15K, excluding December - i.e. twice less. 5 years ago is hardly too old, and if you only cut it in half (minus Dec), you're still higher than the US rate. In short, it doesn't really show success, does it? Quote And, as I said, my concern is not muggers. My concern is people like Cho and Jing Hua Wu. Why? They're the 1% case. Shouldn't be the focus of sweeping policy change. Seems he wants the spree-killers to respect gun-free zone laws.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #161 January 2, 2010 Quote but isn't one of the favorite arguments of the anti-gun lobby "but if more gun control would prevent one crime, isn't it worth it?" Actually it is the opposite - for example, local pro-gun members Ron and mnealtx wrote several times that guns do more good than bad because three (out of 40+) school shootings were stopped by people with guns. Of course most of those shootings would probably never happen if guns weren't available so easily. Quote So if someone carrying their handgun concealed would prevent just one crime, isn't it worth it? What I'm trying to do is to estimate benefits and drawbacks of gun ownership for an average person who does not own or need any guns. So far gun owners claimed that having guns available makes others more safe, and recent killing sprees kinda disagree with this statement.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #162 January 2, 2010 Quotei tell ya what since we are not trying to change russia in any way why dont you leave the good ole USA just the way you found her. or go home if you dont like it I tell ya what, if I ever need your advice on any matter, I'll let you know.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #163 January 2, 2010 Quote Seems he wants the spree-killers to respect gun-free zone laws. Do you expect bank robbers to respect laws against bank robbery? Do you expect child molesters to respect laws against child molestation? Your logic (which is stupid) can be used to argue against laws against: robbery, kidnapping, rape, burglary, murder, terrorism, fraud, DUI, speeding...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #164 January 2, 2010 QuoteOf course most of those shootings would probably never happen if guns weren't available so easily. Good luck putting *that* genie back in the bottle. QuoteSo far gun owners claimed that having guns available makes others more safe, and recent killing sprees kinda disagree with this statement. When was the last killing spree in a gunstore, shooting range or police station again?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #165 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteOf course most of those shootings would probably never happen if guns weren't available so easily. Good luck putting *that* genie back in the bottle. QuoteSo far gun owners claimed that having guns available makes others more safe, and recent killing sprees kinda disagree with this statement. When was the last killing spree in a gunstore, shooting range or police station again? We had 2 shot dead (owner and son) in our local gunstore a few years back.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #166 January 2, 2010 Quote 5 years ago is hardly too old, and if you only cut it in half (minus Dec), you're still higher than the US rate. In short, it doesn't really show success, does it? Five years is significant for Russia at this moment, the country is changing pretty fast. Unfortunately MVD online statistics only goes back to 2006, so I cannot verify 2004 numbers. Also did you read the rest of the posts, regarding "attempted murders"? If you did, why do you still compare raw numbers, as it is obvious that you're comparing oranges with apples? Quote Why? They're the 1% case. Shouldn't be the focus of sweeping policy change. 1% of what?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #167 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuote Seems he wants the spree-killers to respect gun-free zone laws. Do you expect bank robbers to respect laws against bank robbery? Do you expect child molesters to respect laws against child molestation? I do not. QuoteYour logic (which is stupid) can be used to argue against laws against: robbery, kidnapping, rape, burglary, murder, terrorism, fraud, DUI, speeding... His argument/logic, not mine - but if you have a better explanation for his point, please provide it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #168 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteOf course most of those shootings would probably never happen if guns weren't available so easily. Good luck putting *that* genie back in the bottle. QuoteSo far gun owners claimed that having guns available makes others more safe, and recent killing sprees kinda disagree with this statement. When was the last killing spree in a gunstore, shooting range or police station again? We had 2 shot dead (owner and son) in our local gunstore a few years back. Not a 'spree' killing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #169 January 2, 2010 Quote i tell ya what since we are not trying to change russia in any way why dont you leave the good ole USA just the way you found her. or go home if you dont like it Do you know your own family background? Ask your parents .... More than 1/3 of US population is descending from immigrants. Whom do you want to send back?? W/o the immigrants, what would your country be? If your surname is correct, have a closer look at it. It suspiciously sounds German, perhaps a bit more northern European - anyhow, not American - Mr. Hansen. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #170 January 2, 2010 Quote When was the last killing spree in a gunstore, Murderer of Gun-Shop Owner Gets Life in Prison Two suspects confess in gunshop slaying Gun shop owner slain in Methuen JUSTICE SERVED: Second accomplice in murder of gun store owner gets 27 years Quote shooting range Trial set to begin in shooting range murder Shooting Range Murder Suicide In Orlando A caretaker at the shooting range in Kannat Tabla went crazy and started shooting people Quoteor police station again? Two face charges for police station murder A year ago your camp would also mention "or military base". Not anymore, I think.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #171 January 2, 2010 QuoteNot a 'spree' killing. Yet another lame excuse when being shown the _facts_.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #172 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuote When was the last killing spree in a gunstore, Murderer of Gun-Shop Owner Gets Life in Prison Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteTwo suspects confess in gunshop slaying Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteGun shop owner slain in Methuen Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteJUSTICE SERVED: Second accomplice in murder of gun store owner gets 27 years Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteQuote shooting range Trial set to begin in shooting range murder Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteShooting Range Murder Suicide In Orlando Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteA caretaker at the shooting range in Kannat Tabla went crazy and started shooting people Not a spree, by your own standards. QuoteQuoteor police station again? Two face charges for police station murder How many killed? Doubtful it was a spree (can't reach the website). QuoteA year ago your camp would also mention "or military base". Not anymore, I think. Incorrect - you see, the 'gunnies' KNOW that the military doesn't carry weapons in garrison, unlike you.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #173 January 2, 2010 QuoteQuoteNot a 'spree' killing. Yet another lame excuse when being shown the _facts_. Really? WHO was it that said that 21 people killed in Russia wasn't a spree, because there were three killers, again? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it was *ME* that said that. Not a spree, by your own standards.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #174 January 2, 2010 Quote Really? WHO was it that said that 21 people killed in Russia wasn't a spree, because there were three killers, again? Dude, Dnepropetrovsk (which you mentioned) is not in Russia. Check your "facts" before posting them.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #175 January 2, 2010 Quote Not a spree, by your own standards. Not a spree, by your own standards. Not a spree, by your own standards. Not a spree, by your own standards. Not a spree, by your own standards. Not a spree, by your own standards. Not a spree, by your own standards. Don't you have any self-respect? This is just LAME. And since when you were appointed to set up MY standards?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
