airdvr 210 #1 December 28, 2009 Janet Napolitano talking about the failed bombing attempt in Detroit. Seriously?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #2 December 28, 2009 Any more info to base a discussion on? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #3 December 28, 2009 Honestly, I don't think our system had a chance to apply itself fully here did it? The flight came from Amsterdam right? So, the error would be with the Euro screening side. Her "credit" was being given to the system as to alerting other flights in the air at the time, etc. Now, is that "perfect" I have no idea...I'm no fan of hers at all, since I'm a part of the fringe that should be surveilled as a threat to this country. In the end, I'll take what she says with a grain of salt. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/12/27/napolitano_on_failed_terror_attempt_the_system_worked.html She does bring up a valid point though that people on the plane did their part (my hat's off to that one passenger that took him out). So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #4 December 28, 2009 QuoteJanet Napolitano talking about the failed bombing attempt in Detroit. Seriously? it is being reported that this guys dad tried to warn the US and europe in the last several months. how did he even get here? the system doesn't work because to much time is being spent searching and screaning people that are not fitting the profile of the terrorists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #5 December 28, 2009 Yes, if you google the phrase, you'll see that it's this week's favorite cut & paste in the right-wing, chain e-mail blogosphere. (Last week it was "These are the guys you want running health care?") Props to Gawain for calling it straight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #6 December 28, 2009 Quote Quote Janet Napolitano talking about the failed bombing attempt in Detroit. Seriously? it is being reported that this guys dad tried to warn the US and europe in the last several months. how did he even get here? the system doesn't work because to much time is being spent searching and screaning people that are not fitting the profile of the terrorists. Marks...why are you a racist and hater of children? j/k You're right on. I read part of a report you described. I'm curious about the timing, and how the information flows. If he alerted the US (say through a consulate), was there actually enough time (assuming it wasn't months) for that information to vet/flow for when he transferred in Amsterdam? And then, are other nations really obligated to detain (assuming there are mutual treaties in place)?So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #7 December 28, 2009 Quotethe system doesn't work because to much time is being spent searching and screaning people that are not fitting the profile of the terrorists. It does seem prudent to be alert not just for those who fit the profiles, but also those who do not. Beware the terrorist (or unwitting device-carrier) who looks like one of our moms. Recall that the bomb that blew up Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988 was apparently carried onto the plane by an unsuspecting young woman who did not fit the security threat profile; she was being used as a "mule" by a terrorist who "befriended" her for that purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #8 December 28, 2009 Janet Napolitano is a douche bag and needs to be fired or resign. This is not her field of expertise and she doesn't know what she's doing.*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #9 December 28, 2009 QuoteJanet Napolitano is a douche bag and needs to be fired or resign. This is not her field of expertise and she doesn't know what she's doing. She probably is no less qualified than Tom Ridge was when he was the first Director of HS. When Napolitano was appointed, she was governor of Arizona. She had previously served as a US Attorney, during which time she helped investigate the Oklahoma City bombing, and also as a state attorney general. She was valedictorian of her undergraduate class, before moving on to law school. When Ridge was appointed, he was governor of Pennsylvania. Previously, he was an assistant county district attorney for several years. Honors graduate of Harvard U. undergrad, followed by law school. Served as an enlisted man in the Army in Vietnam. So who do you propose for the job? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #10 December 28, 2009 She backtracked today - as stated, clarifying that it was the system of notifying other flights to which she intended to limit the comment. I'm more concerned about the heroic passenger. He should have just called 911 and waited for authorities to respond and/or tried reasoning with the highly educated fellow he assaulted and stripped. This is the kind of guy who keeps a gun in his house for "protection." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #11 December 28, 2009 Quote Quote the system doesn't work because to much time is being spent searching and screaning people that are not fitting the profile of the terrorists. Marks...why are you a racist and hater of children? j/k You're right on. What happens when one starts to emphasize (or worse, restrict, which is not the same as profiling) the notional terrorist profile? Palestinian terrorists responded to Israel’s profiling by recruiting young women. Domestically, profiling would also likely have missed (or did miss) Bryant Neal Vincent (white, from NY, convert from Catholicism, who trained w/AQ in Pakistan to be a suicide bomber), David Headley (Chicago businessman, linked to LeT Mumbai bombing, altho’ the Indian press thinks he’s CIA agent gone ‘rogue’), Carlos Leon Bledsoe (black, convert from Protestantism, attacked Army recruiting station in Little Rock), Kevin Lamar James (black, convert from Protestantism, plotted to attack military recruiting station and synagogue in LA), and Daniel Boyd (white, convert from Christianity, plotted to attack Quantico Marine Base). Even Nidal Hassan is 39, at the far end of “young.” Setting aside the normative issues for the moment. That tend to be the source of antagonism, imo ... or if the profile targets you or your group. Whether profiling creates vulnerabilities is a policy issue, imo. Perhaps, more importantly, it’s also a short-term (feel-good? cuz we can identify a 'them'?) solution at the ‘pointy end.’ Terrorists innovate. A terrorist who’s on his or her way to board a plane indicates a long chain of activities that were not interrupted. Of course, stopping at the last chance is preferable to not stopping at all. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #12 December 28, 2009 QuoteI'm more concerned about the heroic passenger. He should have just called 911 and waited for authorities to respond and/or tried reasoning with the highly educated fellow he assaulted and stripped. This is the kind of guy who keeps a gun in his house for "protection." This just isn't registering...can you please clarify? Perhaps I'm missing something....sarcasm maybe?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #13 December 28, 2009 US counterterrorism system works, claims Secretary Napolitano... Let's see....the guy had no passport. No luggage. A one way ticket. A syringe in his pocket. Chemicals in his underwear. On the warn list. A passenger stopped him. His father warned US officials of his radical views And the system works? And these people think they can run health care too! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #14 December 28, 2009 QuoteUS counterterrorism system works, claims Secretary Napolitano... Let's see....the guy had no passport. No luggage. A one way ticket. A syringe in his pocket. Chemicals in his underwear. On the warn list. A passenger stopped him. His father warned US officials of his radical views And the system works? And these people think they can run health care too! Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #15 December 28, 2009 Interesting info about profiling but this guy was on a list. Napolitano yesterday eluded to a huge list of 500-600,000 names? Said we can't keep track of them all. OK...but not all are attempting to board a flight to the US with a one-way ticket. Seems pretty simple...if your name's on the list you get extra attention. Instead, we get BS like supervised bathroom breaks and restriction of access. Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #16 December 28, 2009 QuoteAnd these people think they can run health care too! Thanks for playing to type. See my post #5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 2 #17 December 28, 2009 Quote I'm more concerned about the heroic passenger. He should have just called 911 and waited for authorities to respond and/or tried reasoning with the highly educated fellow he assaulted and stripped. Quote Back in the '70s, when hijackings to unscheduled destinations was becomming rampant, I came up with a plan to thwart the bad guys. When the plane lands, the police/army SWAT/Special Ops go into the plane and kill EVERYBODY. This would motivate the passingers to handle the situation before the plane got to the ground. Yes, this was a very facetious idea at the time. I just couldn't understand why the passingers always acted like sheep. Well, now the bad guys blow the plane up. The bad guys have done the thing to motivate the passingers to do somthing. The passingers on United (92, 97?) had the right idea and will always be heros in my eyes.Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #18 December 28, 2009 Quote...why are you a racist and hater of children? . . . . . . What happens when one starts to emphasize (or worse, restrict, which is not the same as profiling) the notional terrorist profile? . . . profiling would also likely have missed (or did miss) Bryant Neal Vincent (white, . . . .Perhaps, more importantly, it’s also a short-term (feel-good? cuz we can identify a 'them'?) the "them" that BEHAVIORAL profiling targets is any individual, the shows a particular behavior people keep abusing the term 'profiling' as a race baiting term and it just doesn't have to mean that in any way shape or form in real life application and I'd always consider behavioral profiling to be much better than a pure random (as modified to protect the feelings of PC preferred groups) sampling ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #19 December 28, 2009 QuoteLet's see....the guy had no passport. No luggage. A one way ticket. A syringe in his pocket. Chemicals in his underwear. On the warn list. A passenger stopped him. His father warned US officials of his radical views interesting list - I see no skin tone, or beard length criteria in this particular list case in point ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #20 December 28, 2009 QuoteI'm more concerned about the heroic passenger. He should have just called 911 and waited for authorities to respond and/or tried reasoning with the highly educated fellow he assaulted and stripped. This is the kind of guy who keeps a gun in his house for "protection." seems that today, with people forewarned and now able to think ahead to what scenarios they might encounter and to how they would personally choose to react - that we are past the time now where any nutjob will have a chance of taking over a plane with a simple box cutter or nail clipper threat isn't that a positive result? that 200 people on a plane may very well have decided on 200 different ways to stop a potential threat - you or I may disagree with 100 of those options, but it certainly makes it harder for a nutjob to succeed ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #21 December 28, 2009 Quote ..why are you a racist and hater of children? . . You do realize that this was not my comment, yes? That it was [Gawain]'s that I quoted? I wrote about effectiveness. I've shown that in real life terrorists have used profiling to their advantage and that it would have/did miss a number of cases. Again, as I've wrote in the post from which you excerpted ... setting aside the normative issues for the moment. That tend to be the source of antagonism, imo ... or if the profile targets you or your group. Whether profiling creates vulnerabilities is a policy issue, imo. Perhaps, more importantly, it’s also a short-term (feel-good? cuz we can identify a 'them'?) solution at the ‘pointy end.’ Terrorists innovate. A terrorist who’s on his or her way to board a plane indicates a long chain of activities that were not interrupted. Of course, stopping at the last chance is preferable to not stopping at all. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #22 December 28, 2009 I caught all that, my point is that all the posts on profiling tend to focus on a cosmetic profiling rather than on behavior - it sidetracks the intent of the technique - yours added to gawain's comment rather that corrected. Because the 'effectiveness' your speak to only related to the simpleminded version of profiling that the PC fanatics choose to acknowledge. if we profile based on behavior, the the "them" you talk about just happens to be "those that ACT like terrorists" - rather than "those that LOOK like terrorists" and that does make me 'feel good' - because it's more effective than the straw horse profiling that opponents have defined as the terrorists evolve, sure they'll also learn to 'act' normal as well as look generic. but there's a much smaller pool of those sophisticated enough to pull that off, and observational techniques will evolve right along with it. still beats searching/questioning every 5th person - especially if that 4th person is let by DESPITE him sweating, looking nervous, and being overly protective of that particular bag going through scan. I mean, it's either a terrorist, or a fat skydiver (bald with go-tee to complete THAT stereotype) carrying on his rig. Frankly, you should be searching either one.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nerdgirl 0 #23 December 28, 2009 QuoteLet's see....the guy had no passport. Does anyone know if this assertion is true? This story seems to be the source of that assertion, as far as I can tell. Anyone? I find it highly dubious. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ridestrong 1 #24 December 28, 2009 QuoteQuoteJanet Napolitano is a douche bag and needs to be fired or resign. This is not her field of expertise and she doesn't know what she's doing. She probably is no less qualified than Tom Ridge was when he was the first Director of HS. When Napolitano was appointed, she was governor of Arizona. She had previously served as a US Attorney, during which time she helped investigate the Oklahoma City bombing, and also as a state attorney general. She was valedictorian of her undergraduate class, before moving on to law school. When Ridge was appointed, he was governor of Pennsylvania. Previously, he was an assistant county district attorney for several years. Honors graduate of Harvard U. undergrad, followed by law school. Served as an enlisted man in the Army in Vietnam. So who do you propose for the job? Your comparison to Tom Ridge is irrelevant in Napolitano's competency. She is too interested in a gummed down pc approach to terrorist prevention. I would prefer to see someone with law enforcement experience/background in the position (PD, CIA, FBI, etc..).*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #25 December 28, 2009 QuoteQuoteJanet Napolitano is a douche bag and needs to be fired or resign. This is not her field of expertise and she doesn't know what she's doing. She probably is no less qualified than Tom Ridge was when he was the first Director of HS. When Napolitano was appointed, she was governor of Arizona. She had previously served as a US Attorney, during which time she helped investigate the Oklahoma City bombing, and also as a state attorney general. She was valedictorian of her undergraduate class, before moving on to law school. When Ridge was appointed, he was governor of Pennsylvania. Previously, he was an assistant county district attorney for several years. Honors graduate of Harvard U. undergrad, followed by law school. Served as an enlisted man in the Army in Vietnam. So who do you propose for the job? >>Your comparison to Tom Ridge is irrelevant in Napolitano's competency. It's relevant to the discussion if we're to avoid partisan double standards, instead of just play "bash the Obama administration official". Either both Ridge and Napolitano were qualified when appointed, or neither of them were. >> She is too interested in a gummed down pc approach to terrorist prevention. Baseless, standardized, one-size-fits-all, partisan rhetoric. Yawn. >>I would prefer to see someone with law enforcement experience/background in the position (PD, CIA, FBI, etc..). You mean like THIS GUY , who was appointed to the position by Bush? He'll be sentenced on February 18; federal prosecutors are recommending a 27- to 33-month prison term. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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rehmwa 2 #18 December 28, 2009 Quote...why are you a racist and hater of children? . . . . . . What happens when one starts to emphasize (or worse, restrict, which is not the same as profiling) the notional terrorist profile? . . . profiling would also likely have missed (or did miss) Bryant Neal Vincent (white, . . . .Perhaps, more importantly, it’s also a short-term (feel-good? cuz we can identify a 'them'?) the "them" that BEHAVIORAL profiling targets is any individual, the shows a particular behavior people keep abusing the term 'profiling' as a race baiting term and it just doesn't have to mean that in any way shape or form in real life application and I'd always consider behavioral profiling to be much better than a pure random (as modified to protect the feelings of PC preferred groups) sampling ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #19 December 28, 2009 QuoteLet's see....the guy had no passport. No luggage. A one way ticket. A syringe in his pocket. Chemicals in his underwear. On the warn list. A passenger stopped him. His father warned US officials of his radical views interesting list - I see no skin tone, or beard length criteria in this particular list case in point ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 December 28, 2009 QuoteI'm more concerned about the heroic passenger. He should have just called 911 and waited for authorities to respond and/or tried reasoning with the highly educated fellow he assaulted and stripped. This is the kind of guy who keeps a gun in his house for "protection." seems that today, with people forewarned and now able to think ahead to what scenarios they might encounter and to how they would personally choose to react - that we are past the time now where any nutjob will have a chance of taking over a plane with a simple box cutter or nail clipper threat isn't that a positive result? that 200 people on a plane may very well have decided on 200 different ways to stop a potential threat - you or I may disagree with 100 of those options, but it certainly makes it harder for a nutjob to succeed ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #21 December 28, 2009 Quote ..why are you a racist and hater of children? . . You do realize that this was not my comment, yes? That it was [Gawain]'s that I quoted? I wrote about effectiveness. I've shown that in real life terrorists have used profiling to their advantage and that it would have/did miss a number of cases. Again, as I've wrote in the post from which you excerpted ... setting aside the normative issues for the moment. That tend to be the source of antagonism, imo ... or if the profile targets you or your group. Whether profiling creates vulnerabilities is a policy issue, imo. Perhaps, more importantly, it’s also a short-term (feel-good? cuz we can identify a 'them'?) solution at the ‘pointy end.’ Terrorists innovate. A terrorist who’s on his or her way to board a plane indicates a long chain of activities that were not interrupted. Of course, stopping at the last chance is preferable to not stopping at all. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #22 December 28, 2009 I caught all that, my point is that all the posts on profiling tend to focus on a cosmetic profiling rather than on behavior - it sidetracks the intent of the technique - yours added to gawain's comment rather that corrected. Because the 'effectiveness' your speak to only related to the simpleminded version of profiling that the PC fanatics choose to acknowledge. if we profile based on behavior, the the "them" you talk about just happens to be "those that ACT like terrorists" - rather than "those that LOOK like terrorists" and that does make me 'feel good' - because it's more effective than the straw horse profiling that opponents have defined as the terrorists evolve, sure they'll also learn to 'act' normal as well as look generic. but there's a much smaller pool of those sophisticated enough to pull that off, and observational techniques will evolve right along with it. still beats searching/questioning every 5th person - especially if that 4th person is let by DESPITE him sweating, looking nervous, and being overly protective of that particular bag going through scan. I mean, it's either a terrorist, or a fat skydiver (bald with go-tee to complete THAT stereotype) carrying on his rig. Frankly, you should be searching either one.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #23 December 28, 2009 QuoteLet's see....the guy had no passport. Does anyone know if this assertion is true? This story seems to be the source of that assertion, as far as I can tell. Anyone? I find it highly dubious. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #24 December 28, 2009 QuoteQuoteJanet Napolitano is a douche bag and needs to be fired or resign. This is not her field of expertise and she doesn't know what she's doing. She probably is no less qualified than Tom Ridge was when he was the first Director of HS. When Napolitano was appointed, she was governor of Arizona. She had previously served as a US Attorney, during which time she helped investigate the Oklahoma City bombing, and also as a state attorney general. She was valedictorian of her undergraduate class, before moving on to law school. When Ridge was appointed, he was governor of Pennsylvania. Previously, he was an assistant county district attorney for several years. Honors graduate of Harvard U. undergrad, followed by law school. Served as an enlisted man in the Army in Vietnam. So who do you propose for the job? Your comparison to Tom Ridge is irrelevant in Napolitano's competency. She is too interested in a gummed down pc approach to terrorist prevention. I would prefer to see someone with law enforcement experience/background in the position (PD, CIA, FBI, etc..).*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #25 December 28, 2009 QuoteQuoteJanet Napolitano is a douche bag and needs to be fired or resign. This is not her field of expertise and she doesn't know what she's doing. She probably is no less qualified than Tom Ridge was when he was the first Director of HS. When Napolitano was appointed, she was governor of Arizona. She had previously served as a US Attorney, during which time she helped investigate the Oklahoma City bombing, and also as a state attorney general. She was valedictorian of her undergraduate class, before moving on to law school. When Ridge was appointed, he was governor of Pennsylvania. Previously, he was an assistant county district attorney for several years. Honors graduate of Harvard U. undergrad, followed by law school. Served as an enlisted man in the Army in Vietnam. So who do you propose for the job? >>Your comparison to Tom Ridge is irrelevant in Napolitano's competency. It's relevant to the discussion if we're to avoid partisan double standards, instead of just play "bash the Obama administration official". Either both Ridge and Napolitano were qualified when appointed, or neither of them were. >> She is too interested in a gummed down pc approach to terrorist prevention. Baseless, standardized, one-size-fits-all, partisan rhetoric. Yawn. >>I would prefer to see someone with law enforcement experience/background in the position (PD, CIA, FBI, etc..). You mean like THIS GUY , who was appointed to the position by Bush? He'll be sentenced on February 18; federal prosecutors are recommending a 27- to 33-month prison term. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
