HP landing on a( the first) demo jump?

[riggerrob 643]

Bad idea!
The next day, the crowd will only remember three things:
1. Did the skydivers live?
2. Did they land in the correct stadium?
3. Did all of them stand up their landings?

Most stunts that impress skydivers (i.e. low swoops) are totally lost to the general public. Their response to a long swoop is more likely to be: "That clutz missed the target!"

Clear a lane for the ambulance.

[fcajump 164]

Not just "No", but "HELL NO!!"

Check out what most of the demo jumpers that have LIVED through years of exhibitions use/fly/do... You will find VERY FEW that swoop.

Then look into the DEATHS that have occured in stadium and other venue demos. (including jumper, crew and audience!)

Then stay on the ground if you are still thinking of it.

Oh- and by the way. In the US, the FAA standard boiler-plate jump authorizations forbid low hook-turns. NOT that that is the only way to initiate a swoop, but it is a common method.

So, in summary, I would have to recommend against it...

Jim Wine
USPA Dpro-15598
~250 demonstration jumps

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Ron 10]

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They decide to move the Marching Band on half of the landing area while you are under canopy.

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Been there, done that. Thank God I was under my Sabre 190

One time in a stadium, while on final some moron thought it would be cool to have the "jumper people" land in the middle of the kids.

So right as the lead jumper turned on final, they let a bunch of kids out on to the field. It was too late to land anywhere else, but the field, or I would have landed off.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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While I'm fully aware of that (I have a PRO) I'd like to think other skydivers would not do something stupid that puts PRO rated jumpers in jeopardy like femuring in.

Just because someone doesn't have a PRO rating or does a demo without USPA permission, doesn't necessarily mean that they are more likely to have an accident.

Just because you pay the USPA extra money each year to renew your PRO rating, doesn't mean that you are better jumper than others.

Bureaucratic paperwork doesn't make you safe. Sending money to headquarters doesn't make you safe. It's the experience and judgement of the jumpers that does that.

[JohnRich 4]

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Although you are very legally correct John, the FAA (some FAA individual in DC actually) issued a hand book to their FSDO's saying USPA License and PRO rating or no approval for Demo's.

Correct, which is why I hate the PRO rating. Now there are many highly qualified jumpers who are suddenly no longer considered to be competent to do demo jumps, just because they won't go through the hassle to get their PRO rating to obtain the special permission slip from USPA. The PRO rating has become a revenue source for headquarters, while excluding many non-PRO jumpers from ever getting on a demo load. It's not the piece of paper that makes a jumper qualified, it's their years of experience, thousands of jumps, and proven good judgement.

Pro ratings: Bah Humbug!

[matthewcline 0]

John,

Your holding back again, that can't be good for your BP.

I think that the legal authorization should stand, but I have nor the funds or resources to get a lawyer to challenge the FAA hand book.

Back on subject. This is not a US jump but if it was in the special provisions (28 to 32 is usually how many I get for each request) there is a very detailed description of what the FAA thinks a "hook turn" is. If the British authorities have similar paper work this may all be a moot discussion.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 4]

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Bureaucratic paperwork doesn't make you safe. Sending money to headquarters doesn't make you safe. It's the experience and judgement of the jumpers that does that.

But that "Bureaucratic paperwork" gives people who do not personally know what this jumpers experience and judgment are something to go by. (not perfect but better than nothing}

It means that the jumper at least took the time and effort to demonstrate that he has the basic skills to perform demos. If you in fact have the skills, and I know you do John, it should not be a problem. As for cost, it is less than the cost of a jump each year.

Those who refuse to get it can continue to swim upstream and bitch about not getting on anything but the demos for the opening of a new vacant lot. Or they can show off their skills and after a while start doing the demos that pay real money, not gas and a hot dog.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[steveorino 7]

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While I'm fully aware of that (I have a PRO) I'd like to think other skydivers would not do something stupid that puts PRO rated jumpers in jeopardy like femuring in.

Just because someone doesn't have a PRO rating or does a demo without USPA permission, doesn't necessarily mean that they are more likely to have an accident.

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Did I say they did? I believe I was referring to a 400 jumper flying a HP canopy in a stadium

Just because you pay the USPA extra money each year to renew your PRO rating, doesn't mean that you are better jumper than others.

Bureaucratic paperwork doesn't make you safe. Sending money to headquarters doesn't make you safe. It's the experience and judgement of the jumpers that does that.

I think yor beef is with USPA, not me. If that is the way you feel why get a rating, or license?

steveOrino

[airtwardo 7]

Now there are many highly qualified jumpers who are suddenly no longer considered to be competent to do demo jumps, just because they won't go through the hassle to get their PRO rating to obtain the special permission slip from USPA.

And like Sparky said, MANY is the key word.

There are SO many in fact, a significant number of them 'suggested' to the USPA that there be some kind of separate, distinguishing license or rating put in place to differentiate them...the 'highly skilled and experienced' demonstration jumper, FROM the "I gotta rig-I can land anywhere" people.

When the feds got a look at the program they saw the obvious benefit to 'them' in terms of at least having a 'bench mark' regarding the skills of the person requesting to perform.

The IAC...(aerobatic pilots) saw the PRO Rating program and within two years of the PRO being instituted they followed with a similar rating...called an "ACE".










The PRO rating has become a revenue source for headquarters, while excluding many non-PRO jumpers from ever getting on a demo load.


No it hasn't John, there are addition tasks and expense in running the program to be sure, but 'headquarters' isn't adding anything to the coffers because of the rating...and I for one believe that the press we DON'T get from non qualified jumpers meat bombing all over...is a good thing...paying it forward so to speak.



It's not the piece of paper that makes a jumper qualified, it's their years of experience, thousands of jumps, and proven good judgement.



You are absolutely right Mr. Rich!

And a Doctor's diploma doesn't treat his patients, but it puts them at ease that at the very LEAST he passed some tests.

The piece of paper 'proves' to the client and whoever else that may have concerns..that the jumper has 'tested' his experience, judgement and abilities
and met the mark set by the governing organization.

I don't understand your hum bug attitude on this John, you ARE one of the safest, skilled and heads up 'demo jump mentality' wise....guys I've met in a very long time.
Clean-cut, skilled, smart, ...I know 5-6 Professional demo teams that would LOVE to have you on their roster...mine most certainly!

But...even for demos that in reality only require a "C" license to perform...the organizers want the 'proof' that they are getting Professionals...

If you don't know either of two mechanics, do ya go to 'joes' garage..or Mr.Goodwrench?

Knock out the jumps, take the test..give me the signed paperwork and I'LL send the check for the first year!




Oh yeah..and to the guy with the HP~ 1st Demo question:


Are you outta your fucking mind?

I mean, don't take this wrong...but if you EVER find yourself 'having' to ask people you don't know, on an Internet site...whether something like this is a good idea or not....then DON'T DO IT!

If you don't know ~KNOW~ that you are capable of pulling off the 'outlined plan'...100%...100 times in a row...then you either need to adjust the plan, or acquire the skills to KNOW you can!


You can screw up at the DZ...maybe get out of it, maybe not.
YOU know the risk, and your abilities...and 'should' have some grasp on the possible consequences of doing something beyond those abilities.

The customers (audience) at a demo didn't read the 'fine print' you guys are selling...they have no idea that you aren't qualified and are pushing the limits..or that if you screw up... THEY could be injured or killed.

Knowing what I know...If it were MY kids football game you were swooping into with your experience...You & I would be having a private 'talk' after the 'show'

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 4]

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If you don't know ~KNOW~ that you are capable of pulling off the 'outlined plan'...100%...100 times in a row...then you either need to adjust the plan, or acquire the skills to KNOW you can!

This is worth repeating and repeating and repeating.....................

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JohnRich 4]

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Bureaucratic paperwork doesn't make you safe. Sending money to headquarters doesn't make you safe. It's the experience and judgement of the jumpers that does that.

But that "Bureaucratic paperwork" gives people who do not personally know what this jumpers experience and judgment are something to go by. (not perfect but better than nothing}

It means that the jumper at least took the time and effort to demonstrate that he has the basic skills to perform demos.

Well, I've seen a lot of people get PRO ratings that aren't really that good at accuracy. They just spent one weekend doing it to get the rating, had never done it before, and have never done it since. I think there's more to being good at demos than a one-time accuracy proficiency test. And what about spotting? Most of the youngsters don't know squat about that, and there's no test for it. But on a demo, you sure as hell better get it right.

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If you in fact have the skills, and I know you do John, it should not be a problem. As for cost, it is less than the cost of a jump each year.

Yes, I've got the skills, and the money. I just like being a Rebel with an attitude against bureaucracy, that judges people based upon paperwork rather than reputation. But that's just me being an old fuddy duddy, from the days when a deal was closed with a handshake and honor meant something, Now you have to have a license of some type to prove to strangers that you are who you are. Bah Humbug!

[JohnRich 4]

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The PRO rating has become a revenue source for headquarters, while excluding many non-PRO jumpers from ever getting on a demo load.

No it hasn't John, there are addition tasks and expense in running the program to be sure, but 'headquarters' isn't adding anything to the coffers because of the rating...

Well, there's an annual fee added to your membership renewal for the PRO rating, so that IS adding to their coffers.

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and I for one believe that the press we DON'T get from non qualified jumpers meat bombing all over...is a good thing...

In the good old days, demos were organized by experienced jumpers who hand-picked good people, and the plan was reviewed and approved by the local S&TA. What happened to all that? Now all you need is a piece of paper saying you once landed 10 times in row in a small circle, and you're off to do anything you want.

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The piece of paper 'proves' to the client and whoever else that may have concerns..that the jumper has 'tested' his experience, judgement and abilities and met the mark set by the governing organization.

Maybe this is where my beef is. The PRO rating really doesn't say a thing about a jumper's qualifications to do a demo. All it says is that he once landed 10 times in a row in a small circle. He may have even borrowed a canopy to do it, and never done it again since. How is that proof that you are capable of exercising the experience, skill and judgement to execute a demo jump? I don't get it...

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I don't understand your hum bug attitude on this John, you ARE one of the safest, skilled and heads up 'demo jump mentality' wise....guys I've met in a very long time. Clean-cut, skilled, smart, ...I know 5-6 Professional demo teams that would LOVE to have you on their roster...mine most certainly!

Flattery will get you everywhere. I'm available! But I don't have a PRO rating, just 4,900 jumps over 25 years.

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If you don't know either of two mechanics, do ya go to 'joes' garage..or Mr.Goodwrench?

I look for ASE certifications, but those actually require a class that teaches what they're doing. The ASE certification for brake systems wouldn't mean anything if all the mechanic had to do to earn it was to remove a tire 10 times, without having to learn how to grind a roter, maintain calipers, or bleed the hydraulics.

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Knock out the jumps, take the test..give me the signed paperwork and I'LL send the check for the first year!

That's a very generous of you to make that offer. You're a heck of a guy. Thanks. I'll just need to get rid of my "Bah Humbug" attitude first...

[matthewcline 0]

John,

Hopefully if the whole profficiancy card is done right they will get the FAA paperwork, flag, smoke, spotting , ground control experience and 10 jumps.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 4]

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In the good old days, demos were organized by experienced jumpers who hand-picked good people, and the plan was reviewed and approved by the local S&TA. What happened to all that? Now all you need is a piece of paper saying you once landed 10 times in row in a small circle, and you're off to do anything you want.

John I agree with you for the most part. Hell, you probably don’t remember me, but I was on a demo with you a few years ago. Dec. 16th. 2003.

The good old days are gone and with them with them the old ways. Some were good and some were not so good.

Its time to deal with life in the present

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[fcajump 164]

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Hell, you probably don’t remember me, but I was on a demo with you a few years ago. Dec. 16th. 2003.

The good old days are gone and with them with them the old ways. Some were good and some were not so good.

Its time to deal with life in the present

Sparky's got the deal... we had too many years (mid-90's) where "demo" jumpers were pounding themselves, their crew, and the audience. USPA was told that if this was not resolved in-house, the FAA would "fix" the problem... Your choice, USpa or THEM?

I got my PRO when it was only 10 jumps, and you are RIGHT that this does NOT qualify me to do demos. Unfortunately at the time, that was all the training I got. I had to learn the FAA paperwork, crew selection, site evaluation, flag systems, smoke systems, crowd control, etc... on my own. And I've not alway gotten it right. When they upped the requirements, the went in the right direction... frankly I would like to see it tougher.

As to borrowed rig, I would point out that the PRO is ONLY valid for a canopy the same size or larger than the one used to qualify. Doesn't keep someone from using their rocket, but all insurance and FAA approvals that require the PRO go out the window at that point. (AGAIN, this does not keep it safe, but helps weed out some of the BAD ideas.)

I just had to kill a planned demo here that was being setup with one pilot and jumper. The jumper is a safe jumper but has never planned a demo. Upon review, we identified a dozen ways it could go very bad and some that could NOT be safely resolved given the site, plan and sponsor's security plans.

I've got a few under my belt (~250) and it was my honor to jump with both of you gents on Dec 16th. (we need to do that again! )

Blue ones,
Jim Wine
Dpro-15598

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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As to borrowed rig, I would point out that the PRO is ONLY valid for a canopy the same size or larger than the one used to qualify. Doesn't keep someone from using their rocket, but all insurance and FAA approvals that require the PRO go out the window at that point.

And it's the job of the team leader and the local FAA rep to make sure guys are doing just that. Since you mentioned that clause though, I can tell you that I know a ton of people who are PRO rated on more than one size of canopy. I got mine (when PRO tickets first came out) under an old Lazer 7 250, but later requalified under StarTracs, SharpChuters and other "standard-type" demo mains. Much later, I requalified down to as small as my old Cobalt 75 and as large as the Sigma 370 tandems that I, then, jumped with great frequency. Still, the point of the thread is that it's important to use the right tool for the job. While I have stomped the 50-yard line of plenty of bowl stadiums, I would never consider doing it under an HP canopy. I would, on the other hand, jump one at a race track if there were a proper "runway" cordoned off.

Cheers,

Chuck Blue
D-12501, PRO (among other things)

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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As to borrowed rig, I would point out that the PRO is ONLY valid for a canopy the same size or larger than the one used to qualify.

Although you can requalify with just 3 jumps under an arbitrarily small canopy.

[mjosparky 4]

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and it was my honor to jump with both of you gents on Dec 16th. (we need to do that again! )

Now that was a demo to tell the folks back home about. Talk about an organizational nightmare. Everything was against it. Weather, bomb sniffing dogs, 100 jumpers most of whom had never met each other and the biggest aviation celebration in history. But it came off great.

Thanks again Jim.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JohnRich 4]

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In the good old days, demos were organized by experienced jumpers who hand-picked good people, and the plan was reviewed and approved by the local S&TA. What happened to all that? Now all you need is a piece of paper saying you once landed 10 times in row in a small circle, and you're off to do anything you want.

John I agree with you for the most part. Hell, you probably don’t remember me, but I was on a demo with you a few years ago. Dec. 16th. 2003.

I had to look in my log book real quick to figure out what demo that was. The Kitty Hawk 100th anniversary of flight! Yeah, that was awesome. And somehow I managed to perform safely and as required, even though I didn't have a PRO rating. Go figure... I was selected the old-fashioned way: by an experienced jumper, who knew my reputation and knew I could perform the jump safely.

[matthewcline 0]

Was it an open field or leval one?

OK, OK, I was just stirring the pot a bit.

I think the PRO is a good thing and it makes my life as a Demonstrator easier.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 4]

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even though I didn't have a PRO rating.

You didn't? I am going to tell the Demo Police, you are in trouble now buster.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[recovercrachead 0]

I have about 40 demo jumps with one open statium at Bellmount and let me say your all going to Die. Make sure you take out the away team so it wont look that bad. I think most demo jumps i did for biker events is that they want to see you go in, if so take one out with you.
black death!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[JohnRich 4]

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Was it an open field or leval one?
OK, OK, I was just stirring the pot a bit.

Depends upon what the definition of "open field" is...

The Kitty Hawk demo had 100 canopies in the air simultaneously, from a formation load of multiple planes. The spot was over a barrier island with the ocean to the east, and a river to the west. The landing area was a narrow strip between tall woods on the right, a huge crowd to the left, and spectators and a hill straight ahead.

I'll bet the large majority of those jumpers did NOT have PRO ratings. It was just done the old-fashioned way, with hand-picked trustworthy, experienced and competent jumpers.

[JohnRich 4]

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even though I didn't have a PRO rating.

You didn't? I am going to tell the Demo Police, you are in trouble now buster.

Oh my, I'm trembling in my jump boots shoes.

The number of demos I'm doing will plummet from my current level of zero! Ack! Prior to PRO ratings, I used to get a few per year...

[Scrumpot 1]

Why would anyone even WANT to do a HP landing demo into a stadium (of any sort) in the 1st place?

Seriously, think about that.

For the crowd and the demo value, or for their own (LAME ) EGO??!!!

Have you ever been in a crowd where a demo was taking place, and witnessed the reactions and VALUE to those reactions of and to the crowd? I have. Here is what I can tell you about that:

The guy who comes in under the biggest "sky-boat" 7 cell, and sinks it in right on target, for a slow (yeah, boring huh?) easy tip-toe landing gets the biggest cheers and excitement of all. The guy who sets up at 600 ft under his sub-100 VX, whips a 270, even to (HIS excitement) perfection gets instead only gasps (at BEST), and then later just comments of aspersion like "woah, that guy was an idiot, I wonder what was WRONG with him"!

As others have said, the WHUFFO demo crowd has absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING, let alone "appreciation" (at all) for this, and it serves absolutely ZERO (...LESS THAN ZERO) purpose! and is only a sign of this jumpers LAME selfish perception and inappropriate (entirely) to the task EGO.

Not only do everything you can to convince your friend(s) away from this fateful path, but if they do not listen, and intend instead to proceed as you have outlined then YOU need to also have the stones to take your OWN stand. ...Do NOT even participate in such folly.

My .02 (where you ASKED!),
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone