Who will bring back the Electric car?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

The claimed top speed is easy to see. But I would be very surprised if they can achieve their goal of 300 miles on one charge. They also claim a 45 minute charge. That may be possible, but it will kill the batteries in short order.
If Tesla can deliver a 160 mile range at 60 mph and overnight (8 hr) charging they should consider that a success.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[mnealtx 0]

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Imagine pulling into a "gas station", paying maybe $10 for a 5 min battery swap, and being good for another 200-300 miles? Just a thought.

Battery packs for the Prius are several thousand dollars each, if I recall correctly something that Bill mentioned. I think the '$10 battery pack swap' is a LONG way in the future.

I think the (charged for discharged) battery swap idea is a good one, as long as there is a way to keep an individual car owner from ending up with an end-of-life battery pack at a changing station and getting screwed. Shouldn't be too hard to deal with.

That crossed my mind as well, on both sides of the swap.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,116]

The first practical modern* electric car was the Toyota RAV4-EV. Only about 350 were sold. They are still on the road and in high demand. Range 100-120 miles.

The next was the EV1, which was very popular amongst its base of owners. Range 100-140 miles, about 800 were leased. They were all pulled back and destroyed by GM.

Today the Tesla is selling pretty well for its price point (there are 3 at my company alone) but it won't take off in a big way due to that cost. Their sedan looks promising but likely to have growing pains.

The first EV of any sort that will be widely successful will be (IMO) the 2011 Prius PHEV. It will have an all-EV range of about 13 miles which will cover about 80% of driving people do. For longer distances the engine will start.

I predict the first pure EV that will be largely successful will be the Nissan Leaf. It looks like a well built car and should appeal to people who don't have to drive long distances. Range of about 100 miles.

The Volt looks like a good idea but I've been hearing rumors of serious quality control and production problems. Hopefully they will be ironed out.

(* - about half of the very first cars and trucks were electric, because although they had lower range, they were cheaper, more reliable, safer and easier to fix than the gas and steam engines of the time.)

[billvon 3,116]

>As long as the power comes from a coal driven power plant there is
>nothing green about it.

At 100% coal power, a mile of driving in an EV generates only 60% of the CO2 that driving the same mile in a gas car.

However, I agree that coal power is a bad idea overall. Eventually solar/wind/tidal/wave with nuclear as baseline will reduce that 60% to around 5%.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The next was the EV1, which was very popular amongst its base of owners. Range 100-140 miles, about 800 were leased. They were all pulled back and destroyed by GM.

Almost all. GM allowed about a dozen to stay with Universities as long as they were being used for research purposes. GM still owns them and thus they will never be in private hands. Someday those few will join their brothers, save for a couple for the museums.

What range are the people at you company getting with their Teslas? Are they happy with the car as a whole?

I saw a Ford Edge concept vehicle that was somewhat cool. It was converted to all electric drive with an onboard H2 fuel cell that would recharge the batteries when needed. Since fuel cells "like" to operate withing very specific parameters....flow rates, temps, etc....this made for an efficient use of the fuel cell. But it still has the drawbacks of any H2 vehicle.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,116]

>What range are the people at you company getting with their Teslas? Are
>they happy with the car as a whole?

They generally haven't pushed the range but have seen 60-70 miles at high speeds with no problems. They seem pretty happy. A group of engineers out in Boulder is actually considering buying one and sharing it.

>They also claim a 45 minute charge. That may be possible, but it will
> kill the batteries in short order.

Well, I've seen at least one company claiming a 45 minute charge to 80%. That's a 1C charge which is no problem for even LiCo batteries, which are the most finicky (provided adequate thermal management etc)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Depending on battery capacity, 45 inutes to 80% may be ok on occasion, but i wouldn't want to do that every time. A good BMS is crucial.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[1969912 0]

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Imagine pulling into a "gas station", paying maybe $10 for a 5 min battery swap, and being good for another 200-300 miles? Just a thought.

Battery packs for the Prius are several thousand dollars each, if I recall correctly something that Bill mentioned. I think the '$10 battery pack swap' is a LONG way in the future.

I think the (charged for discharged) battery swap idea is a good one, as long as there is a way to keep an individual car owner from ending up with an end-of-life battery pack at a changing station and getting screwed. Shouldn't be too hard to deal with.

That crossed my mind as well, on both sides of the swap.

The important thing is to keep the government out of it.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[kelpdiver 2]

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Well, with deaf people lobbying for ECs to sound like regular cars (or make some sort of noise), this may not be the outcome.

I doubt DEAF people are lobbying for noise added to cars, but I am aware of BLIND people doing it.

At low speeds, let's call it 20kph, I have no issues with an artificial sound being created to warn pedestrians. At high speeds, it's not needed.

I'm laughing at my typo, but the problem is serious. 20kph isn't going to do it - the speed limits on the slower streets is 40mph, and others (plus speeding) means the blind pedestrians need to be concerned about cars going as fast as 60kph at the minimum.

(Or just install dog whistles on the front bumper)

[quade 4]

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Depending on battery capacity, 45 inutes to 80% may be ok on occasion, but i wouldn't want to do that every time. A good BMS is crucial.

Really? You're going to debate batteries and charging with billvon? Uh . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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Well, with deaf people lobbying for ECs to sound like regular cars (or make some sort of noise), this may not be the outcome.

I doubt DEAF people are lobbying for noise added to cars, but I am aware of BLIND people doing it.
At low speeds, let's call it 20kph, I have no issues with an artificial sound being created to warn pedestrians. At high speeds, it's not needed.

I'm laughing at my typo, but the problem is serious. 20kph isn't going to do it - the speed limits on the slower streets is 40mph, and others (plus speeding) means the blind pedestrians need to be concerned about cars going as fast as 60kph at the minimum.
(Or just install dog whistles on the front bumper)

At some point there's absolutely a trade off. Above about 20kph the sound of the tires will be louder than most artificial noises you'd want to put on vehicles. The major concern isn't vehicles traveling down a street at 40 mph but rather the ones creeping around a right turn at a crosswalk.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Really?

Yep

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You're going to debate batteries and charging with billvon?

Hell no!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[ltdiver 3]

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At low speeds, let's call it 20kph, I have no issues with an artificial sound being created to warn pedestrians.

There's an app for that.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Amazon 7]

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Well, with deaf people lobbying for ECs to sound like regular cars (or make some sort of noise), this may not be the outcome.

I doubt DEAF people are lobbying for noise added to cars, but I am aware of BLIND people doing it.
At low speeds, let's call it 20kph, I have no issues with an artificial sound being created to warn pedestrians. At high speeds, it's not needed.

I'm laughing at my typo, but the problem is serious. 20kph isn't going to do it - the speed limits on the slower streets is 40mph, and others (plus speeding) means the blind pedestrians need to be concerned about cars going as fast as 60kph at the minimum.
(Or just install dog whistles on the front bumper)

At some point there's absolutely a trade off. Above about 20kph the sound of the tires will be louder than most artificial noises you'd want to put on vehicles. The major concern isn't vehicles traveling down a street at 40 mph but rather the ones creeping around a right turn at a crosswalk.

Well "certain people" could always install a connection from the batteries to electric nipple clamps.. that should generate enough noise.. for safety purposes of course.

[loumeinhart 0]

<<<<<<<<<<<<
If something comes along that is cheaper than gas, I'll buy it!

[quade 4]

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<<<<<<<<<<<<If something comes along that is cheaper than gas, I'll buy it!

Bicycle.

Unfortunately, not very practical for most people that work long distances away from their homes or work in offices while wearing business suits.

"Cheap" isn't always the best answer.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhys 0]

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Sorry, but it is claimed to have a range of 250 miles and a top speed of 120, but it most definitely does not have a range of 300 miles at 120 mph.
People want an electric car that will give the same range and performance as their IC engined car. Problem is, just the materials needed to make the batteries to obtain that sort of power storage would weigh as much as a sub-compact IC car. And that's not even counting the battery case, motor, inverter, etc.
The other problem is charging. People want 350 mile range and 15 minute recharge. Only way to do that is battery swap. The current needed for that charge rate would require enormous cables and would most likely destroy the batteries that, by the way, prefer a nice slooooow charge.
Electric cars will best fill the niche of commuter vehicles. The driving done by most people is commuting to work or taking kids to school and adds up to less than 40 miles a day. 80% of people drive less than 40 miles per day....whcih happens to fall very nicely into a realistc goal of what an electric car can do given an 8-10 hour period to recharge without killing the batteries.

It is quite clear that you are a half empty kind of guy, I like to look at the glass as half full.

I already have a plug in electric vehicle and have had 3 different types over the past 2 years. Better design and more performence each time. They are not cars they are skateboards. I don't have a car. I don't need one.

The batteries on my skateboard used to run out as they only offered lead acid 9AH batteries, the next had 12AH these last just less than and just more than One hour at top speed.

Now we can get Litium ion batteries that fit with 15AH and give better discharge with battery management systems... I have been told of dry cell batteries with 36AH at the same size (but yet to go see the guy)


It is 'Much' faster for me to use an electric skateboard to go to, work, town, hardware store... Than it would be for me to drive. it is also more fun.

I am looked at as a weirdo, by 'half empty' type people for having the audacity to use anything other than what is considered conventional.

People are so freaked out by seeing something different that they change the way they react in a traffic situation when they see me there,THEY make the road less safe by not abiding the rulse and expect that I am gong to hit them even whan I am stationary.

I am using the road the same way as a bicycle or small motorbike. I can go up steep hills at 25kmph and on the flat I can go 35KMPH I have brakes and have great control, what is so freak deaky?

Change!

Not to drift the thread but to use my point, it is not the technology that is not ready for 90% of the population, it is that attitude of 90% of the polulation that is holding back the technology.

You don't need an escalade to take the kids to school, but 'half empties' can't fathom anything else being safe enough.

Once Electric vehicles are 'mainstream' the amount of money that will be pumped into the technology will imporve the performance and capabilities.

As Quade says, there will come a time when IC will be a quaint piece of history.

Good fucking riddance I say!

It could/should have happened decades ago.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[piisfish 140]

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It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors!

That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine.

MMMMH the strident sound of a brushless emotor

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jgoose71 0]

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It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors!

That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine.

I can absolutely guarantee the Audi electric concept that was just recently shown puts more torque to the ground than any car you can name.

This was my first time seeing the new Audi e-tron. To bad its only coming out in a limited trial run.

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The engine behind Audi's latest eco-machine is powered by a 42.4 kilowatt-hour liquid-cooled lithium ion battery which supports four motors that produce 313 horsepower. With 3,319 pounds of torque, the car goes from 0 to 60 in 4.8 seconds, and 60 to 120 in 4.1 seconds -- a level of power almost unprecedented in an electric car.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/03/audi-e-tron-electric-car_n_378738.html

I wonder if I could tow a boat with that?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Contrary to what you may think, I actually look forward to the day when we have at least half the cars on the highways at any given time powered by just electricity. The reduction in carbon footprint alone will be worth the effort, then there are numerous other benefits. But the fact is that at this time the electric cars will do what most people need but not what they want. People want a car that goes 350 miles between fillups, will cruise that far at 75 mph, and will carry 5 people plus luggage while doing so. That car is a long, long way in the future. What most people need is a car that will go 20-40 miles between charges at 50-60 mph and can carry 2-4 people. Those cars are what can be bought right now. The Tesla seems to have a bit of a range advantage.
I'm not a "glass half empty" person, I just see things for what they are without letting my imagination cloud the facts.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kallend 2,148]

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It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors!

That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine.

MMMMH the strident sound of a brushless emotor

You can play tunes using the windings of brushless motors. R/C electric airplane speed controllers do this to warn that the system is armed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,148]

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It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors!

That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine.

I can absolutely guarantee the Audi electric concept that was just recently shown puts more torque to the ground than any car you can name.

This was my first time seeing the new Audi e-tron. To bad its only coming out in a limited trial run.

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The engine behind Audi's latest eco-machine is powered by a 42.4 kilowatt-hour liquid-cooled lithium ion battery which supports four motors that produce 313 horsepower. With 3,319 pounds of torque, the car goes from 0 to 60 in 4.8 seconds, and 60 to 120 in 4.1 seconds -- a level of power almost unprecedented in an electric car.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/03/audi-e-tron-electric-car_n_378738.html

I wonder if I could tow a boat with that?

Torque requires a moment arm as well as a force to specify. Would that be 3319 ft. pounds or inch.pounds?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors!

That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine.

MMMMH the strident sound of a brushless emotor

You can play tunes using the windings of brushless motors. R/C electric airplane speed controllers do this to warn that the system is armed.

But, sadly , it will never compare to this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGEqlNU30Tg

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Andy9o8 2]

Speaking strictly as a consumer, when a solely-electric (i.e., not hybrid) car can be recharged quickly and easily in the same 2 or 3 minutes it takes to fill up with a tank of gas, at no more than about the same cost, and it has about the power and performance of a current gas automobile, I'll consider it.

[jgoose71 0]

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Speaking strictly as a consumer, when a solely-electric (i.e., not hybrid) car can be recharged quickly and easily in the same 2 or 3 minutes it takes to fill up with a tank of gas, at no more than about the same cost, and it has about the power and performance of a current gas automobile, I'll consider it.

Also, strictly speaking as a consumer, what I would like is a car that can get me through the day and will recharge overnight. I really don't like the gas station comparison because part of owning an electric car would be never having to pull into a gas station again.

But also, for road trips, the cars that are able to do quick battery swaps would be nice.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything