jgoose71 0 #1 December 23, 2009 For those of you who don't know the cars, here are the links: fisker Karma http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/ Tesla Model S http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php Chevy Volt http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do?seo=goo_%7C_2009_Chevy_Awareness_%7C_IMG_Chevy_Volt_Phase_2_Branded_%7C_Volt_HV_%7C_volt Nissan Leaf http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/#/car/index A lot of companies are starting to fight to take the lead on the Electric car. Who do you think is going to come out on top? All of these cars will use lithium-Ion batteries. The Karma and the Volt will both have a Gas back up engine/generator to provide power to the electric motors. Fisker has had delays with it's car, but I got a feeling we'll se them step things up with the release of other cars. With several cars coming out to choose from, I think we will also see there prices come down. Right now only the super rich can afford these cars. The good news is though that Tesla has now made up there start up costs with the sales of their roadster to the guys with the money coming out the wazoo problem, so the model S is going to come out at a slightly lower price and Nissan is saying that the Leaf is supposed to be comparably priced to a mid size sedan. Note: Al Gore has not bought any of these cars Also in the future, since they all use Lithium Ion Batteries, What do you think the odds are of all of these vehicles (or at least the ones that survive the initial battle) go to a common batterie type?"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #3 December 23, 2009 Audiquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #4 December 23, 2009 While Toyota has been leading the way with the Prius, It doesn't have a designated "Electric car" yet. They will have an electric commuter some time in the future and the next generation Prius will be a "Plug-in" hybrid, but I didn't have enough info to include them in the survey "There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #5 December 23, 2009 QuoteAudi I guess I should have asked "Who will bring the Electric Car to the US?""There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FastRon 0 #6 December 23, 2009 Until they build one that will 1) Go 250 miles at 75 mph, fully loaded; 2) Take 5 minutes or so to recharge, and go another 250 miles; 3) Hold 4 adults plus gear, 4) Have a trailer hitch; and 5) Be able to haul my boat too- I'M not going to call it a viable vehicle! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #7 December 23, 2009 QuoteUntil they build one that will 1) Go 250 miles at 75 mph, fully loaded; 2) Take 5 minutes or so to recharge, and go another 250 miles; 3) Hold 4 adults plus gear, 4) Have a trailer hitch; and 5) Be able to haul my boat too- I'M not going to call it a viable vehicle! Hate to say it, but that's the attitude that's keeping the revolution from happening. The electric cars that are about to come on the market are amazing and more than capable of doing 95% of everything most people do with their cars on a daily basis. I'm not suggesting that everyone has to ditch their Ford F-150s, but if the only vehicle you call "viable" is an F-150, then you're definitely not seeing the big picture.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #8 December 23, 2009 Quote Until they build one that will 1) Go 250 miles at 75 mph, fully loaded; 2) Take 5 minutes or so to recharge, and go another 250 miles; 3) Hold 4 adults plus gear, 4) Have a trailer hitch; and 5) Be able to haul my boat too- I'M not going to call it a viable vehicle! the Tesla Model S can do most of that. 300 mile range at 120 MPH with a 0-60 time of less than 6 sec. Holds 5 adults. It is also designed to do a 5 min battery swap. It's just not a truck so it may not be able to haul your boat. Also read up on the other vehicles. It's here, the only argument now a days is the price. All the rich go-green guys are eating up the initial start up costs for the average person (except Al Gore)"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #9 December 23, 2009 It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #10 December 23, 2009 Is the EC the answer? I'm more interested in seeing the hybrid diesel. The fact that Toyota made money with the Prius, while all of the purely ECs have been largely unsuccessful makes me question how well any of these current ones will do. OTOH, the electric Rav4 was pretty popular and fetches a decent price still. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #11 December 23, 2009 Quote It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors! That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine. I can absolutely guarantee the Audi electric concept that was just recently shown puts more torque to the ground than any car you can name.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #12 December 23, 2009 LOL. Very true! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #13 December 23, 2009 Quote Quote Until they build one that will 1) Go 250 miles at 75 mph, fully loaded; 2) Take 5 minutes or so to recharge, and go another 250 miles; 3) Hold 4 adults plus gear, 4) Have a trailer hitch; and 5) Be able to haul my boat too- I'M not going to call it a viable vehicle! the Tesla Model S can do most of that. 300 mile range at 120 MPH with a 0-60 time of less than 6 sec. Holds 5 adults. It is also designed to do a 5 min battery swap. It's just not a truck so it may not be able to haul your boat. Also read up on the other vehicles. It's here, the only argument now a days is the price. All the rich go-green guys are eating up the initial start up costs for the average person (except Al Gore) Sorry, but it is claimed to have a range of 250 miles and a top speed of 120, but it most definitely does not have a range of 300 miles at 120 mph. People want an electric car that will give the same range and performance as their IC engined car. Problem is, just the materials needed to make the batteries to obtain that sort of power storage would weigh as much as a sub-compact IC car. And that's not even counting the battery case, motor, inverter, etc. The other problem is charging. People want 350 mile range and 15 minute recharge. Only way to do that is battery swap. The current needed for that charge rate would require enormous cables and would most likely destroy the batteries that, by the way, prefer a nice slooooow charge. Electric cars will best fill the niche of commuter vehicles. The driving done by most people is commuting to work or taking kids to school and adds up to less than 40 miles a day. 80% of people drive less than 40 miles per day....whcih happens to fall very nicely into a realistc goal of what an electric car can do given an 8-10 hour period to recharge without killing the batteries.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #14 December 23, 2009 Quote Sorry, but it is claimed to have a range of 250 miles and a top speed of 120, but it most definitely does not have a range of 300 miles at 120 mph. well, that's true of IC cars too - drive them at 120 and they're not getting the same mileage either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #15 December 23, 2009 Quote Quote It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors! That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine. Well, with deaf people lobbying for ECs to sound like regular cars (or make some sort of noise), this may not be the outcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 897 #16 December 23, 2009 Why do deaf people care what it sounds like??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #17 December 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Until they build one that will 1) Go 250 miles at 75 mph, fully loaded; 2) Take 5 minutes or so to recharge, and go another 250 miles; 3) Hold 4 adults plus gear, 4) Have a trailer hitch; and 5) Be able to haul my boat too- I'M not going to call it a viable vehicle! the Tesla Model S can do most of that. 300 mile range at 120 MPH with a 0-60 time of less than 6 sec. Holds 5 adults. It is also designed to do a 5 min battery swap. It's just not a truck so it may not be able to haul your boat. Also read up on the other vehicles. It's here, the only argument now a days is the price. All the rich go-green guys are eating up the initial start up costs for the average person (except Al Gore) Sorry, but it is claimed to have a range of 250 miles and a top speed of 120, but it most definitely does not have a range of 300 miles at 120 mph. People want an electric car that will give the same range and performance as their IC engined car. Problem is, just the materials needed to make the batteries to obtain that sort of power storage would weigh as much as a sub-compact IC car. And that's not even counting the battery case, motor, inverter, etc. The other problem is charging. People want 350 mile range and 15 minute recharge. Only way to do that is battery swap. The current needed for that charge rate would require enormous cables and would most likely destroy the batteries that, by the way, prefer a nice slooooow charge. Electric cars will best fill the niche of commuter vehicles. The driving done by most people is commuting to work or taking kids to school and adds up to less than 40 miles a day. 80% of people drive less than 40 miles per day....whcih happens to fall very nicely into a realistc goal of what an electric car can do given an 8-10 hour period to recharge without killing the batteries. Yes, up to 300 mile range and up to 120MPH, but not both at the same time, you are right. But it does sound like you have been reading the design specs for the Chevy volt. Your "realistic goals" are what that car was designed around. Then they gave it a Gasoline Generator for road trips."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #18 December 23, 2009 Quote the Tesla Model S can do most of that. 300 mile range at 120 MPH with a 0-60 time of less than 6 sec. Holds 5 adults. It is also designed to do a 5 min battery swap. It's just not a truck so it may not be able to haul your boat. Also read up on the other vehicles. It's here, the only argument now a days is the price. All the rich go-green guys are eating up the initial start up costs for the average person (except Al Gore) As long as the power comes from a coal driven power plant there is nothing green about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #19 December 23, 2009 QuoteIs the EC the answer? I'm more interested in seeing the hybrid diesel. The fact that Toyota made money with the Prius, while all of the purely ECs have been largely unsuccessful makes me question how well any of these current ones will do. OTOH, the electric Rav4 was pretty popular and fetches a decent price still. I believe electric cars are a part of the answer. In Europe where they already have "Cap and Trade" gas is $8 to $9 a gallon and nuclear power is taking off, so is the little electric commuters. With The EPA naming CO2 as a dangerous gas and trying to hold a gun to congress's head, we may see it here also. Not to mention I would love to see the Arab countries drown in their own oil. The Tesla (with the largest battery) advertises $4 a charge. For a car that also advertises up to 300 miles per charge, you can do the math for miles per gallon gas equivalent. As said earlier, a lot of "go-green" rich guys are eating up the initial costs. Prices will come down and when a nicely loaded electric car gets to the $30,000 and below mark, I will probably buy one. One of the failings right now is the current infrastructure to support such vehicles. That's why I asked about a common car battery. Imagine pulling into a "gas station", paying maybe $10 for a 5 min battery swap, and being good for another 200-300 miles? Just a thought."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #20 December 23, 2009 QuoteImagine pulling into a "gas station", paying maybe $10 for a 5 min battery swap, and being good for another 200-300 miles? Just a thought. Battery packs for the Prius are several thousand dollars each, if I recall correctly something that Bill mentioned. I think the '$10 battery pack swap' is a LONG way in the future.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #21 December 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote It also has to make that "vroom" noise we get from internal combustion motors! That's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine. Well, with deaf people lobbying for ECs to sound like regular cars (or make some sort of noise), this may not be the outcome. I doubt DEAF people are lobbying for noise added to cars, but I am aware of BLIND people doing it. At low speeds, let's call it 20kph, I have no issues with an artificial sound being created to warn pedestrians. At high speeds, it's not needed.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #22 December 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteImagine pulling into a "gas station", paying maybe $10 for a 5 min battery swap, and being good for another 200-300 miles? Just a thought. Battery packs for the Prius are several thousand dollars each, if I recall correctly something that Bill mentioned. I think the '$10 battery pack swap' is a LONG way in the future. Yes, but if electric cars take off, maybe not that far. A "one for one" swap times a lot of cars would go a long way towards offsetting the battery costs."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #23 December 23, 2009 QuoteThat's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine. Ever read about or seen any turn of the century electric cars or steam cars? Both were incredible. There was a plan for a city electric car with charging stations at popular destinations. You would drive your electric carriage to the store, plug it in and shop, then drive your electric carriage back home. Great, except for the lead-acid batteries. The steam cars are incredible. If you don't know what I'm talking about, start with reading up on the Stanley Steamer and go from there. I love how technology has come around to something already tried in our recent history. Maybe this time it will work out better.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #24 December 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteImagine pulling into a "gas station", paying maybe $10 for a 5 min battery swap, and being good for another 200-300 miles? Just a thought. Battery packs for the Prius are several thousand dollars each, if I recall correctly something that Bill mentioned. I think the '$10 battery pack swap' is a LONG way in the future. I think the (charged for discharged) battery swap idea is a good one, as long as there is a way to keep an individual car owner from ending up with an end-of-life battery pack at a changing station and getting screwed. Shouldn't be too hard to deal with. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #25 December 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteThat's strictly a transitional artifact. 50 years from now people will associate the whine of an electric motor with power in ways that will make a supercharged V-8 sound "quaint" like a steam engine. Ever read about or seen any turn of the century electric cars or steam cars? Both were incredible. There was a plan for a city electric car with charging stations at popular destinations. You would drive your electric carriage to the store, plug it in and shop, then drive your electric carriage back home. Great, except for the lead-acid batteries. The steam cars are incredible. If you don't know what I'm talking about, start with reading up on the Stanley Steamer and go from there. I love how technology has come around to something already tried in our recent history. Maybe this time it will work out better. Good points, Dave - something that comes to mind with mention of the local electric vehicle is the possibility of direct induction. A very small/limited battery pack and induction leads in the pavement seems more and more feasible with today's technology.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
