Overheard at the DZ, re: health care

[Lucky... 0]

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Wow - you really misunderstood virtually the entire thread. (Again)

No, you just don't want anyone addressing it outside of your slim margin, just like private HC itself.

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The discussion was regarding the USPS monopoly on first class letter delivery. It was asserted that UPS and others could deliver mail if they wanted, but it's clearly not so. You would only use them for express mail, or larger sets of documents where the per pound price makes more sense.

It was about the use of mail boxes, as UPS can deliver letters, essentially mail. UPS cannot deliver to mailboxes, that was the issue. The USPS calls first class what UPS / FED EX would call something else, so you're intentionally getting stuck on the semantics of language while the outcome is the same. WHat is mail? Letters, packages? Sure and the USPS, UPS, FED EX delivers all of those, only the USPS can use US Mail Boxes. I have a private mailbox and get mail, letters, packages from all of these - your point is sadly meaningless again.

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I don't know that UPS would want that business - it's hard to improve on 40some cents per letter, even in volume, and the scaling is tough.

Right, just as the private HC insurers don't want patients unless they can make a big profit; you're once again starting to understand our analogy - I'm proud of you. What I'm not proud of is that you think HC should be about money and not people.

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But if the USPS didn't have this monopoly, could they maintain that price (albeit with a 7B deficit)?

Remember, the USPS is about delivering mail, not about money. Just as the public option would be about delivering HC, not about money. You're such a great guy for saying fuck people and let's make money or not offer it.

As for profit/loss, looks like UPS stocks were down low earlier this year from your party's Great Recession. http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=UPS#chart1:symbol=ups;range=2y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined

DHL is considerably cutting operations: http://247wallst.com/2008/11/10/ups-fedex-losin/

UPS lost: The company reported a net loss of $2.576 billion ... in the 4th Q of 2007, even tho the connies tell us the recession wasn't until mid-2008. http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/TOP%20STORY/2155255/

So to act as tho the USPS is so inefficient and private carriers are doing well in the Great Republican Recession is weak. Most everyone is doing crappy and losing money....but after all...... it is about money and not people, right? Did you dress up for XMAS? If so, let me guess what you dressed as......

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Now, to redress the previosu issue you keep running from:

KELP WROTE: The cheapest rate for delivering a letter on UPS is $16.38. Not exactly the same thing, is it? Calling it a package, you can get down to 9.44.

They can't deliver a 1 oz package without charging you as if it were a pound.

Note also that they charge more to deliver to residential addresses, because they don't have mailboxes there.


I WROTE: That's an intra-UPS policy, not a law. So what you've illustrated is that the gov option allows for more flexibility saving the user money over the private option. For once we agree.


So to say, as you did in this thread: The discussion was regarding the USPS monopoly on first class letter delivery. is ridiculous, as you are talking diffs in cost and efficencies, now that you look less than correct, you want to limit the arg to the monopoly on 1st class letter delivery. You broadened the issue to cost, as did most others, so the issue is as well that of cost efficiency private vs public; a good point where we both agree.

[Lucky... 0]

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You seem to think ignoring the deficit makes it go away (surprise, surprise). So, one more time, just because it's cheaper to you personally does not mean the government is actually doing it cheap.

Did you even read the post to which I linked? The cost of the deficit was figured into the expense, and it was still much cheaper.

Not to mention that as the Great Republican Recession kicked off, UPS lost > 2B in 1 quarter. If we tallied the losses of all private carriers since the Great Republican Recession started, it would dwarf that of the USPS. And I wonder who makes letter delivery available to all. Just think if the USPS went out of business, would mail delivery look like HC does today? So only part of society could mail a letter.

[Lucky... 0]

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You seem to think ignoring the deficit makes it go away (surprise, surprise). So, one more time, just because it's cheaper to you personally does not mean the government is actually doing it cheap.

Did you even read the post to which I linked? The cost of the deficit was figured into the expense, and it was still much cheaper.

Yes, I read it. That still doesn't change the fact that there's a $7B deficit. The business is consistently in the red (and protected by law) and therefore should not be held up as an efficiently run company.

Yes, we should make it exclusive, just like HC is today. Brilliant.

BTW, look at the post I just entered about UPS losses the 4Q of 2007... - 2+B. Now make your, "private is more efficient" argument.

[jcd11235 0]

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That still doesn't change the fact that there's a $7B deficit. The business is consistently in the red (and protected by law) and therefore should not be held up as an efficiently run company.

Wrong. USPS has consistently operated in the black in recent decades.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Lucky... 0]

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That still doesn't change the fact that there's a $7B deficit. The business is consistently in the red (and protected by law) and therefore should not be held up as an efficiently run company.

Wrong. USPS has consistently operated in the black in recent decades.

Shhhhhh, what he's saying is fuck people, it's all about money. HC; don't care, is there a profit line or not? Mail delivery? Who goves a fuck; what are we, the pony fucking express? It's about money not people and the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Remember: FUCK PEOPLE.

[tbrown 26]

Bill, I just don't know what to think anymore about this health bill. For starters, I'm a Single Payer advocate, who is just willing to settle for "public option" as a bottom line compromise.

But now, thanks to the Senate for not kicking (literally) Joe Liebermann's ass, even the public option is dead.

My employer has just informed us that Aetna is upping our premiums 45% for the coming year. As it is, I pay $127 a week for coverage on my wife and one daughter, under a plan that I have so far considered pretty darn good. As long as I don't lose my job, which at least for the moment doesn't seem too likely either. I guess this rate increase is Aetna's "thank you" to Joe Liebermann and the rest of the gutless cocksuckers in the U.S. Senate for gutting the public option. Thank you Joe, come & see me sometime....

But on top of that, I'll not only have to pay 45% higher premiums (unless my employer dumps Aetna for some affordable shit plan), but if my plan is considered a "gold plated" plan, because it actually pays for something, I'll have to pay a TAX on it ???

I mean what the fuck ? What the fucking fuck ???

I am at least consoled that 94% of Americans should be able to get some kind of coverage for themselves. I'm pleased that pre-existing conditions and lifetime limits will be outlawed, and that getting cancer won't be grounds for cancellation of coverage by the insurance industry death panels (the real death panels, thank you Sarah Palin....). But I'm left wondering what the fucking fuck ?

I don't blame Obama for this either, except that I wish he'd grown more of a spine for public option. I do blame assholes like Joe Liebermann, Ben Nelson, and a U.S. Senate that makes its own privileged set of rules that aren't even in our Constitution.

On the whole I don't blame the Democrats. The Republicans can bloody well go and fuck themselves, since all they've ever contributed to the discussion was that this was their opportunity to "break Obama". The Republicans should be used for medical experiments, ala Dr. Mengele.... it's all they're good for.

But Congress has once again gone and fucked up the works. It's the only thing we can count on them to do. It doesn't even matter which party is running the show. They're all a bunch of privileged fuck ups, completely out of touch with how the rest of us live. And they all have free government provided health care.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[airdvr 210]

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But on top of that, I'll not only have to pay 45% higher premiums (unless my employer dumps Aetna for some affordable shit plan), but if my plan is considered a "gold plated" plan, because it actually pays for something, I'll have to pay a TAX on it ???

I mean what the fuck ? What the fucking fuck ???

Too funny!

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Ron 10]

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Right, they have a different name for it, they call it overnight, same day, etc. Here is a chart for their terminology: http://www.fedex.com/...eToolsMain.do?link=2

The drop-down will reveal 20 or so diff shipping rates, so your semantic argument of 1st class vs 2-day or whatever you want to fill in is irrelevant.

This just shows you have no idea what you are talking about either.... You did notice the post where I said I worked for FedEx for 18+ years right?

Sheesh... Once again you claim to be an expert on something you have no idea about.

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Why is it that connies always seem to get hung up on semantics? (rhetorical ?)

Why is it that people that clearly have no clue act like an expert? (Rhetorical question).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Clearly, you have ignored the point made (or simply are unable to understand it).

Clearly YOU have no idea, and don't get it. You want to compare a Govt protected monopoly and use it as a comparison for HC while ignoring the facts.

You have the right to think that way, but it is not logical and makes no sense.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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2) The type who often post data or other reference when available

Too bad you really don't do that.

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So attack teh poster instead of the post - gottcha, loud and clear. AKA ad hominem.

WOW, irony score off the chart!!!!!!!!!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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This system doesn't care what classs [SIC], color or any other division you might be a part of, they provide teh axact [SIC] same service for everyone.

So does FedEx and UPS.

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They need to have exclusive rights to certain facilities.

AND certain services. Now, what exclusive services are you going to grant govt HC?

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Not a hard grasp, just replace HC with post office and that's the point.

No, actually the point is what exclusive SERVICES are you going to grant the Govt HC system? What imposed extra prices or reduction in quality are you going to impose on private providers.

Because:

1. The USPS is allowed by LAW to provide exclusive services. Say only the Govt can provide cancer treatments.

2. BY LAW any private company has to charge twice the Govt charge OR the service has to depreciate. So say the Govt is the only one that can provide cancer treatment, or the private company can only provide less effective programs.... BY LAW.

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These letters must either cost at least the greater of $3 or twice what First Class (or Priority) mail service would cost, or they must be delivered within strict time limits or otherwise lose value.

So, what exclusive rights are you going to give the Govt? And how much extra will private company's have to charge?

Explain THAT and then you can reasonably compare the Post office as a HC model.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[georgerussia 0]

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This just shows you have no idea what you are talking about either....

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Clearly YOU have no idea, and don't get it.

It looks more and more like you think you're the only person on this board who has an idea and knows what he is talking about. And this is no different from what my 12yo thinks.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lucky... 0]

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This just shows you have no idea what you are talking about either.... You did notice the post where I said I worked for FedEx for 18+ years right?

Instead of trying to impress us with your resume, show me where I'm wrong. Ridiculous.

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Why is it that people that clearly have no clue act like an expert?

OK, so show me how the USPS has first class and UPS, FED EX, DHL or other shippers don't have a diff name for the same process. I don't care if you cleaned shitters on FED EX jets for 18 years, show me the substance.

[Lucky... 0]

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So does FedEx and UPS.

I see the back peddler is back in action. I would think the embarrassment (intentionally misspelled for people who can't make arguments otherwise) would be great enough that spell-nanny would take a break.

Well, 44 cents to $10 cares about class, so you're wrong.

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AND certain services. Now, what exclusive services are you going to grant govt HC?

I don't know, why not try posting the entire passage in context and I will answer?

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No, actually the point is what exclusive SERVICES are you going to grant the Govt HC system?

Spell/grammar-nanny, you're slipping. If you place a question mark at the end, a colon should follow the, "is."

Whatever services are neccessary to provide basic mail delivery to all people regardless of class, unlike you and your exclusivity. BTW, the USPS only has exclusive rights to USPS mailboxes, not anything else, unless you consider the language of, "First Class" to be exclusive and it cannot be replaced.

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What imposed extra prices or reduction in quality are you going to impose on private providers.

How does the gov impose those on private carriers? How could they other than taxes?

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1. The USPS is allowed by LAW to provide exclusive services. Say only the Govt can provide cancer treatments.

Yea, nice reach. From a corporate-loving fascist nation, you think and fear corporate controls. Paranoid much? Which exclusive svs does the USPS have; and please no semantic BS about ownership of language?

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2. BY LAW any private company has to charge twice the Govt charge OR the service has to depreciate.

I've yet to see that law, but let's say you're right, how is that a problem since UPS charges like 20 times more? Make a real point.

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So say the Govt is the only one that can provide cancer treatment, or the private company can only provide less effective programs.... BY LAW.

You're taking such a ridiculous leap that is not only uber-hypothetical it is sci-fi. Ron, we're a fascist nation in love with our corporations, we give corps more lattittude not less, so how is it even in the distant grasp of reality that this would happen? I don't mind hypotheticals, I just can't deal with impossibilities.

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So, what exclusive rights are you going to give the Govt? And how much extra will private company's have to charge?

Explain THAT and then you can reasonably compare the Post office as a HC model.

You quoted something that I didn't write and now you want me to address it.

These letters must either cost at least the greater of $3 or twice what First Class (or Priority) mail service would cost, or they must be delivered within strict time limits or otherwise lose value.

If this is an excerpt from a source, be unlike yourself and post it properly.

[FallingOsh 0]

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This just shows you have no idea what you are talking about either....

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Clearly YOU have no idea, and don't get it.

It looks more and more like you think you're the only person on this board who has an idea and knows what he is talking about. And this is no different from what my 12yo thinks.

It would be really impressive if your 12yo had 18 years experience in something.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[georgerussia 0]

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It would be really impressive if your 12yo had 18 years experience in something.

She can easily say something like that - you cannot verify it anyway.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lucky... 0]

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This just shows you have no idea what you are talking about either....

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Clearly YOU have no idea, and don't get it.

It looks more and more like you think you're the only person on this board who has an idea and knows what he is talking about. And this is no different from what my 12yo thinks.

It would be really impressive if your 12yo had 18 years experience in something.

It would be impressive if the conservatives here would quit name-dropping, job-dropping, etc and actually post reference rather than say, "I kknow more than you, so just shut up." I had a college proff I kept in contact with after graduation and he was lile that until I squared him. You can never rest on your laurels, you have to prove up your point. Just like with me and acft knowledge, I would never say, 'I have 25+ yrs experience, we'll just go with that.' I produce whatever info/data the issue requires and let that carry the point.

We all have areas of expertise, I don't get impressed hearing a resume, I do get impressed with data or other reference that is objective and tangible.

[FallingOsh 0]

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It would be really impressive if your 12yo had 18 years experience in something.

She can easily say something like that - you cannot verify it anyway.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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It would be impressive if the conservatives here would quit name-dropping, job-dropping, etc and actually post reference rather than say, "I kknow more than you, so just shut up."

Nobody has said "I know more than you so shut up." If that's what you're hearing then that's your deal.

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I had a college proff I kept in contact with after graduation and he was lile that until I squared him.

Such a badass.

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You can never rest on your laurels, you have to prove up your point.

Agreed. Which you and jcd have failed to do.

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We all have areas of expertise, I don't get impressed hearing a resume, I do get impressed with data or other reference that is objective and tangible.

Or you just cherry pick until you find some data that may fit your argument.

Post some data or reference that is objective and tangible that proves how the post office running means HC reform will work.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Ron 10]

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It looks more and more like you think you're the only person on this board who has an idea and knows what he is talking about. And this is no different from what my 12yo thinks.

Well since you are acting like a 5year old that knows everything without having a clue.... That still makes me more right than you.

(Yes, I know that rhymed.... Your arguments are so sad, that I have to entertain myself some other way)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Instead of trying to impress us with your resume, show me where I'm wrong.

I already have and included links.

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It would be impressive if the conservatives here would quit name-dropping, job-dropping, etc

It would be really nice if you took facts as facts and refrained from lame personal attacks.

I have provided references, you have once again ignored them.

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OK, so show me how the USPS has first class and UPS, FED EX, DHL or other shippers don't have a diff name for the same process.

Simple.... They don't by LAW. That is pretty obvious to anyone that cares about facts.... And I and other have supplied to applicable laws for you to read.

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I do get impressed with data or other reference that is objective and tangible.

Which has been provided.

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I see the back peddler is back in action.

Oh look out of intellectual ammo so soon?

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I don't know, why not try posting the entire passage in context and I will answer?

All relevant info has been posted... Just admit you can't follow that line of logic and are trying to distract so you don't have to look stupid.

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BTW, the USPS only has exclusive rights to USPS mailboxes, not anything else, unless you consider the language of, "First Class" to be exclusive and it cannot be replaced.

Your ignorance is showing. We have provided the LAW... Maybe you should read it before you claim to know it?

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How does the gov impose those on private carriers? How could they other than taxes?

Again, maybe you should read the supplied links before you look even less informed.

The links have been supplied by several people..... I suggest reading them before you look more ignorant than normal. But I am willing to be you will just come back with your normal lame personal attacks.

Tell ya what... Till you read and answer the questions.... I am going to ignore your childish rants on this topic.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mnealtx 0]

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But on top of that, I'll not only have to pay 45% higher premiums

A lot of people will - and here's why:

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I'm pleased that pre-existing conditions and lifetime limits will be outlawed

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But Congress has once again gone and fucked up the works. It's the only thing we can count on them to do. It doesn't even matter which party is running the show. They're all a bunch of privileged fuck ups, completely out of touch with how the rest of us live. And they all have free government provided health care.

Well, you got THAT much right...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm pleased that pre-existing conditions and lifetime limits will be outlawed,

I know this isn't what you mean, but it's a certainty that some Congressman will put up a proposal to 'outlaw all pre-existing conditions'.

Probably in 2014. Just wait, you'll see.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Bolas 5]

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You're taking such a ridiculous leap that is not only uber-hypothetical it is sci-fi. Ron, we're a fascist nation in love with our corporations, we give corps more lattittude not less, so how is it even in the distant grasp of reality that this would happen? I don't mind hypotheticals, I just can't deal with impossibilities.

Is it really? How many large corporations have taken bail out $$$? How many are currently subjected to additional government oversight?

Large companies and governments have been playing the money for power game a long time only now the gov't is starting to hold more and more of the cards.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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Remember, the USPS is about delivering mail, not about money. Just as the public option would be about delivering HC, not about money. You're such a great guy for saying fuck people and let's make money or not offer it.

So as long as some shoddy level of service can be offered to some we should not care how much it costs?

Free or subsidized, someone somewhere still has to pay.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.