those pesky fires!

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Yes, it appears to have been cut with either an oxy-fuel torch or a carbon arc electrode

If I was able to see a close up of the cut I could tell you exactly what was or wasn't used to cut this steel. But by the amount of slag still left pn the steel im willing to bet it wasn't cut using oxy-fuel or carbon arc. These processes tend to blow the slag away from the cut, not let it run down the side of the steel being cut.

In the hands of a skilled operator trying to keep things tidy very little slag would be present. But when the goal is to severe the sections as fast as possible, and neatness doesn't count, I would expect there to be plenty of slag just as is pictured.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[hcsvader 1]

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But when the goal is to severe the sections as fast as possible, and neatness doesn't count

When the goal is to make a cut as quickly as possible neatness definatly counts. Cutting thicker steel can go shitty very quicky if your not careful with your cut. Also when doing demolition type work you would typcally use a larger torch tip with higher oxy-fuel pressures. This makes the cut more effective just not very "neat" It definatly blasts the slag away from the cut area.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

You are correct...neatness does count but in a different way from when the cutting is being done to prep for joining. In the case of clearing the debris at ground zero the objective was to get it cut and out of the way. Whether it had slag left on the cut, whether the was square, etc. was not a priority of any kind. Leaving slag is not unusual (I don't give it a second thought during demolition) at all and can in no way be interpreted as meaning the steel was not cut by oxy-fuel or carbon arc, let alone being indicative of sabotage. On the contrary, it provides proof that it was cut using a torch. Slag clinging to the bottom of a cut that was made with the torch in a horizontal position is normal. Thermite/thermate cutting leaves huge amounts of slag and dross, much more than what is shown in the picture. That's not even mentioning the enormous amounts of thermite that would be needed to cut a section like that.
What the people who post that picture as some kind of "evidence" of thermite/thermate don't tell you is that the column in that picture is one of many that were torch cut during recovery and cleanup. I can't remember where but i have seen pics of entire rows of columns that are cut just like that one, all by a man with a torch post-collapse.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[hcsvader 1]

Carbon arc is NEVER used in a demolition / recovery setting... its not an economical process weather it be time or finacial. Are you and engineer or an imagineer?

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[hcsvader 1]

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On the contrary, it provides proof that it was cut using a torch. Slag clinging to the bottom of a cut that was made with the torch in a horizontal position is normal. Thermite/thermate cutting leaves huge amounts of slag and dross, much more than what is shown in the picture

Ummm this is exactly what I would exect to see left behind if I were to cut something using only an electric arc, with no pressure removing the slag. This is a HUGE amount of slag left behind. But hey, maybe your an imagineer and you have a bunch of welderers working for you....

I'm an alberta journyman welder,B preseure,CWB / TSSA: SMAW,FCAW, GMAW all posiotion, red seal certified. We are among the most highly regarded and highly skilled welders in the world. We are recruited for the most demanding welding jobs in the world. I probobly turn down more 6 figure jobs in a year than most people apply for in thier lifetime. I am pretty sure I understand the practical applications of the useless crap engineers come up with, Gotta love getting yor engineered drawing every mornig and pulling out your red marker and making multiple changes just to send it back to imagination land.

Or maybe you just work with some underskilled scabs who are unable to make even a simple demolition cut without leaving slag on the parents material. WTF kind of bullshit are you trying to feed me?

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Whether it had slag left on the cut, whether the was square, etc. was not a priority of any kind. Leaving slag is not unusual (I don't give it a second thought during demolition)

During a demolition you would be using a demo torch (much higher oxy fuel pressure) then required to make a nice weld joint prep. It would blow the slag 50ft from the cut joint and leave very little to no slag behind...

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Slag clinging to the bottom of a cut that was made with the torch in a horizontal position is normal.

On both sides of the cut? there must be some seriously scabby fucking welders in NY, even the junk yard torch labourers here know how to make nice salvage cut....

I need a new red sharpie

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[rushmc 23]

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On the contrary, it provides proof that it was cut using a torch. Slag clinging to the bottom of a cut that was made with the torch in a horizontal position is normal. Thermite/thermate cutting leaves huge amounts of slag and dross, much more than what is shown in the picture

Ummm this is exactly what I would exect to see left behind if I were to cut something using only an electric arc, with no pressure removing the slag. This is a HUGE amount of slag left behind. But hey, maybe your an imagineer and you have a bunch of welderers working for you....

I'm an alberta journyman welder,B preseure,CWB / TSSA: SMAW,FCAW, GMAW all posiotion, red seal certified. We are among the most highly regarded and highly skilled welders in the world. We are recruited for the most demanding welding jobs in the world. I probobly turn down more 6 figure jobs in a year than most people apply for in thier lifetime. I am pretty sure I understand the practical applications of the useless crap engineers come up with, Gotta love getting yor engineered drawing every mornig and pulling out your red marker and making multiple changes just to send it back to imagination land.

Or maybe you just work with some underskilled scabs who are unable to make even a simple demolition cut without leaving slag on the parents material. WTF kind of bullshit are you trying to feed me?

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Whether it had slag left on the cut, whether the was square, etc. was not a priority of any kind. Leaving slag is not unusual (I don't give it a second thought during demolition)

During a demolition you would be using a demo torch (much higher oxy fuel pressure) then required to make a nice weld joint prep. It would blow the slag 50ft from the cut joint and leave very little to no slag behind...

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Slag clinging to the bottom of a cut that was made with the torch in a horizontal position is normal.

On both sides of the cut? there must be some seriously scabby fucking welders in NY, even the junk yard torch labourers here know how to make nice salvage cut....

I need a new red sharpie

Generally yes
But this thread is about stealth demolition. Suppose you would use some of this stuff and stay outta sight outta mind?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rhys 0]

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I'm an alberta journyman welder,B preseure,CWB / TSSA: SMAW,FCAW, GMAW all posiotion, red seal certified. We are among the most highly regarded and highly skilled welders in the world. We are recruited for the most demanding welding jobs in the world. I probobly turn down more 6 figure jobs in a year than most people apply for in thier lifetime. I am pretty sure I understand the practical applications of the useless crap engineers come up with, Gotta love getting yor engineered drawing every mornig and pulling out your red marker and making multiple changes just to send it back to imagination land.

Or maybe you just work with some underskilled scabs who are unable to make even a simple demolition cut without leaving slag on the parents material. WTF kind of bullshit are you trying to feed me?

ha ha, thanks for chiming in, I have browsed the thread and will make comments later, but that 'debate' you just had there was golden.

Imagineers!

I have cut with oxy before and know from looking at that picture that it was not cut by hand, as you say the slag is dripping outward and the column would have had to have been cut from the inside out to achieve such a result, I am a hobbyist and have very simple welding tickets, it is nice to have the support and knowledge from more and more industry profesionals such as yourself.

Thanks.

I will comment on other posts later, too many jumps, christmas, summer, silly season!!!
busy busy busy!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jakee 1,594]

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So yes steel is more likely to fail above 700c. But how do you explain what happened to the steel in this picure?

Where it is very obvious that the steel has been cut by something.

http://911nwo.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/thermate-wtc.jpg

Regardless of how it was cut, if it was a demolition job, why was it cut at all? Assuming that it's not just coincidence that the beam is standing bolt upright, it was cut not far off ground level. Seeing as the WTC towers collapsed from the top down, you'd think that the demolishers would realise that the god-knows-how-many-thousand tons of concrete and steel coming down on the lower floors would be enough to do the job, and wouldn't be so stupid as to leave unneccessary tell tale signs sticking up from the foundations for all to see.

But that's just my opinion.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Carbon arc is NEVER used in a demolition / recovery setting... its not an economical process weather it be time or finacial. Are you and engineer or an imagineer?

Rarely used, yes.
Never used...nope. I've seen carbon arc used on demolition sites.
But, for the sake of argument, we'll say "never" and stick with oxy-fuel.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I started welding and fabbing when i was about 9 years old and have held certification in GMAW, SMAW, and GTAW. I now have a BSME and CWI/CWE. I have inspected failures caused by more "I know more than the engineers" thinking people like you than you could ever imagine. Ever hear of the Alexander Kielland? 123 dead because the welder "knew more than the engineers". Sun Oil Co. in King of Prussia, PA? NOVA Gas Transmission in Edmonton? Those also the result of wleders who "knew more than the engineers".
What I can tell you is this: Those columns were cut with a torch post-collapse during demolition/cleanup/recovery efforts. Slag would be expected and normal under the circumstances. If you believe otherwise you are not much of a welder. Sorry if the truth hurts.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So yes steel is more likely to fail above 700c. But how do you explain what happened to the steel in this picure?

Where it is very obvious that the steel has been cut by something.

http://911nwo.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/thermate-wtc.jpg

Regardless of how it was cut, if it was a demolition job, why was it cut at all? Assuming that it's not just coincidence that the beam is standing bolt upright, it was cut not far off ground level. Seeing as the WTC towers collapsed from the top down, you'd think that the demolishers would realise that the god-knows-how-many-thousand tons of concrete and steel coming down on the lower floors would be enough to do the job, and wouldn't be so stupid as to leave unneccessary tell tale signs sticking up from the foundations for all to see.

But that's just my opinion.

If the tin hats would examine their own photo a bit closer they would see evidence against their own argument.
Just beneath the cut showing heavy slag deposites is...OMG!...a pile of slag! If the column were cut pre-collapse that slag would not be just laying there, it would have been moved.
Notice anything about the coulumn itself? It is a box structure. An EMPTY box structure. If it had been cut pr-collapse it would have been filled to the top with debris from the 100+ stories of building collapsing around it.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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If the tin hats

would examine their own photo a bit closer they would see evidence against their own argument.
Just beneath the cut showing heavy slag deposites is...OMG!...a pile of slag! If the column were cut pre-collapse that slag would not be just laying there, it would have been moved.

Keep the PA's coming, i bet Billvon does not give 'you' a warning ( I hope I am not right). but keep em coming.

It is amusing.

I have to go to work but will address yours and others statements later.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,111]

>Keep the PA's coming, i bet Billvon does not give 'you' a warning . . .

He can attack "the tin hats" all he likes, just as you attack Americans with great frequency. Both are groups and are fair game. If you identify yourself with the tin hatters, and are offended, that's your issue.

Some examples:

OK:
"These tin hatters don't know their ass from their elbow"
That's an attack on a group.

Not OK:
"You're a pathetic ass."
That's an attack on a poster.

OK:
"'Lemmings' springs to mind, 'Beyond reasonable doubt' are the reaccuring words and 'PATHETIC' is my description of Americas patriotism."
This is an attack on a group.

Not OK:
"Instead you continue to be fucked up the ass from those that wish to feed it to you!"
This is an attack on a poster.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I wouldn't worry too much about Bill doing his job. He is, for the most part, fair to all and has given me a "timeout" in the past.

I look forward to your explanation of how a beam that was obviously cut with a torch post-collapse was instead somehow cut with thermite.
Keep these points in mind:
Thermite cutting relies on gravity. Horizontal cutting is extremely inefficient especially on thick members. The beam pictured is cut much too cleanly for any type of thermite cutting let alone horizontal.
The beam pictured is empty. If it had been severed before or during the collapse it would be filled with debris as would all the rest that can be seen in other pictures.
There is slag laying just under the cut section. If this had been done before collapse that slag would not still be laying there.
Your response promises to be, shall we say, "enlightening".

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[hcsvader 1]

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I look forward to your explanation of how a beam that was obviously cut with a torch post-collapse was instead somehow cut with thermite.

Im not saying how the beam was cut. I'm not taking sides here as to who dunnit. I've never said it was cut with thermate although this is what the conspiracy theorists are saying. I've never said if I thought it was cut pre or post collapse. I asked for your opinion on how it was cut and I dont agree with your theories. So nw were having a good pissing match. (The engineers Ive had to deal with have not helped my thoughts toward your opinions so yes Im biased. Try having to do whatever they tell you at work even though you know its not going to work and then do it anyway just to have to cut shit apart again and give thier next imagineered idea, just to cut it apart again... for six fucking months! They still havent figured it out...)

I just don't belive that it was cut with a torch. Yes carbon arc may be use in demolition, but for cutting these columns I do not seeing it as being at all all practical. An oxy fuel torch would definatly be the way to go.

So if an oxy fuel torch was used to cut these columns, how come the slag is on the outside of the column? For the slag to be on the outside of the column you would have to cut from inside the column. What was the cutting procedure used to have these results?

I will say that I think that if these cuts were made pre-collapse that the slag probobly would have been removed during the collapse. But then again, slag can be pretty damn strong and I imagine this slag is pretty thick based on the thickness of the steel. What do you estimate the thickness of the steel to be in the columns? I would guess arund 2". The columns dont appear to show any signs of being damaged by the collapse. I would expect to see scarring on steel. so maybe the slag could still be intact after a collapse.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I can understand and respect your bias against "imagineers". I have run into many of the type you describe and can't figure for the life of me how they ever got a degree. Trust me when I say you have my sympathies for having to work with them.
I agree carbon arc was most likely not used to cut these. The way those buggers throw sparks everyone withing half a block would be in danger!
The slag stuck to the column could be from two causes. One case would be if the cuts along the sides were started away from the slag side and finished by cutting both through the side and part of the adjacent plate. Besides suddenly cutting through much more material the torch would also have to deal with the changing cross section of the weld and any separated layers that weren't fully welded. I'm sure you know how messy it gets when trying to torch through two or more pieces at once.
Another case would be if the torch was cutting in from the slag side and was being rushed, therefore not blowing the slag out the backside as it should. But I doubt that was the case.
Most likely it was the first case plus being in a hurry.
I've attached a pic showing other columns that appear to have been cut in the same manner.
I would say your estimate of the thickness would be very close. 2" looks about right.
Some of the columns were bent and twisted in ways you would not think possible. I saw a picture of one that was bent like an "N".

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[hcsvader 1]

Yup I agree that the pieces shown there were cut by a torch. I know I've seen pictures of what happened to some of the steel in the collapse, amazing stuff! Gotta wonder what kind of forces were in place to do that stuff.

I'm still not sure I understand how you explain the slag on the outside of the column tho.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[hcsvader 1]

FUCK... I just hit the back button on my browser and deleted 15 minutes of typing (goes and gets another beer)

I have no desire to retype what I just lost right now...

anyway, check out this website

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html Has some images of the columns. Interesting stuff.

This one has some good info on the demolition crew and what they were working withhttp://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/04/real-world-tests-cut-through-steel.html

Anyone know what happens to steel column during a controlled demo? Are weakened first or are they cut using explosives such as thermite?

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Yup I agree that the pieces shown there were cut by a torch. I know I've seen pictures of what happened to some of the steel in the collapse, amazing stuff! Gotta wonder what kind of forces were in place to do that stuff.

I'm still not sure I understand how you explain the slag on the outside of the column tho.

My opinion is that on that particular column the cuts on the sides were started farthest from the camera positon and worked toward the side with all the slag. When the worker got to the corner with the torch he didn't make the turn around the corner very well and made a freakin' mess. Probably messed up his torch tip in the process too.

Or he used a torch like the one in the second link you posted. I'd hate to foot the bill to feed that monster!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[hcsvader 1]

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Or he used a torch like the one in the second link you posted. I'd hate to foot the bill to feed that monster!

No doubt, I'd to play with one tho!!

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[champu 1]

It's also difficult to tell from photos after the fact what kind of mangled mess was being held up by the columns. There may have been constraints on accessibility to the base of the column, or on how the debris could fall without destabilizing the surrounding area (or just falling on someone.)

[rhys 0]

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I look forward to your explanation of how a beam that was obviously cut with a torch post-collapse was instead somehow cut with thermite.

You see I am not one that need to come up with solutions to know that there is a problem, jusat as AE911truth do not use speculation. That is your forte.

That beam as pointed out by hcsvader and pondered by me does not look like it was cut by hand the slag is on the outside of the column and the inside in the sme proportion, you showed a lengthy report debunking the 'theory' that the beam was cut by thermite 'somehow'.

This column and its suspected implications are only a stich in the story.

I beleive it was unlikely the column was cut by hand as it simply does not look that way, and this was also pointed out by a very experienced welder.

But not to detract from the collapses as a whole and the multitude of other unlikely scenarios that happened that day. I'll (for arguments sake) say the colum was cut with a torch and move on.

We will never know for sure until somebody explains how slag can drip in both directions both towards and away from the cutteing tool in equal proportions, in significant quantities.

The photos have not shwm that but this particlaur, singular topic is one that can be debated indefinately.

I will move to more defnitive topics.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[hcsvader 1]

Im sayin that this is nothing like I have seen before. No that it isnt achievable. In my industry quality is very high so if it were me doing this salvage work, there is no way it would look like this when i was done with it. As BG has pointed out there are ways in which this outcome is possible, although very sloppy and ineffective procedures, I can see how the slag could end up on both sides. After looking a little deeper into what monsters some of these colums were and the procedure and equipment that would be required to cut them I can see this being a possible outcome... but if I were on this site my cuts would be much nicer

I would still LOVE to see what thermite would do a standard structural column, or how these columns are actually brought down in a controlled demo.

(doing searches on building demo just brings up a ton off 911 related misinformation)

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[rhys 0]

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But, speaking of doing research, if you're going to post things like this you might want to check and see if the person you're promoting has recanted his story.

Sure he was professional and prompt about publishing his mistake.

He did however gain the false information from American Airlines themselves. They were the ones that origionally stated that there were not 'airphones' in that particular aircraft.

This makes the Olsen phone call 'possible' now but the fact that the FBI say the call was never connected still raises suspicion.

Olsen has lost his wife and as much as I am fishy about that aspect of the story it is not beyond reasonable doubt that his particular convesation, and I have compasson for him. The matter will continue to be scrutinised and something else will come of it.

And once again as with the column, if the phone call did take place it still does not prove the official stroy to be correct.

The NIST and Government departments hold the vital evidence that can prove beyond reasonable doubt that their stroy is correct or not.

The footage of the pentagon, the remanents of the buildings and even the dust that was collected would go a long way in ending these unecessary debates.

We should know beyond reasonable doubt what was seen and recorded, the witnesses comments should be taken into consideration and a criminal investigation should have taken palce before it was 'determined' who was responsable.

An unscathed passport is recovered while a high proportion of the concrete was pulverised to dust. This passport is supposed to have been inside the same aircraft that produced a fire responsable for the collapsing these immense stuctures.


What is to hide, why is the evidence just sitting there and the authorities avoiding contact and not acknowledgeing the questions asked of them.

If they are so right, as you would like to think, why don't they shut us all up once and for all by releasing images of a Commercial aircraft flying into the pentagon?

Why would they not let scientists test the dust samples thay have?

Why would you surround Iran?

Why would you spend more than the entire world combined on military spending? Why kill innocent civilians and soldiers?

why suck you country down the toilet.

Becase thay are assholes and couldn't give a flying fuck about you, me, or anyone other than themselves or their 'elite' friends and peers.

9/11 was far too convienient, and the bullshit stories that flow out from the cunts that fabricate them, are in many cases idiotic.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[hcsvader 1]

I definatly agree that there is something very strange about building 7 collapsing. This was a MAJOR structural failure. Look at building that fall after an earthquake, they o suffer majr structural damage and may be on fire as well... yet they dont implode into thier own footprint

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)