jcd11235 0 #51 December 5, 2009 QuoteYou say this plan will reduce health care costs. What if it doesn't? It would be difficult to increase health care costs above their current levels (at rates greater than inflation) without significantly increasing quality. Our current quality/cost ratio is very low compared to other developed countries. QuoteYou say it won't result in rationing of care. What if it does? Then we stop rationing entrance slots to medical school, allowing market demand to increase the supply of doctors. QuoteYou say this won't add to the deficit. What if it does? Then increase taxes to pay for it. Healthcare is a far more worthy recipient of tax monies than many other government programs (e.g., the DOD offers very little benefit to the people for every dollar spent). QuoteYou say this won't put the insurance companies out of business. What if it does? If it does, then that would indicate that the insurance companies are unable to operate efficiently enough to compete. QuoteWill politicians continue to pour money into a failing program? The DOD still gets their money.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #52 December 5, 2009 Quote Then we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? It's funny how you attack others for using supposedly bad sources when you make up facts left and right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #53 December 6, 2009 Quote Right, the rattle from the RW is that of, what if Obamacare fails. They are in such stark denial that HC isn't a current failure and a raving success that they can't grasp WE ARE IN A MAJORLY FAILED MESS NOW. In my opinion nobody with even a half of brain would seriously consider what right wing says on this matter. They already defend the stuff which has been failed already (where are those WMDs?), so their attack on something which just _may_ fail looks like a fat chick joke.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #54 December 6, 2009 Quote Quote Then we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? It's funny how you attack others for using supposedly bad sources when you make up facts left and right. I can't name an HMO CEO period. I guess with you connies I have to be litteral. So they onlyh make 50mill a year, my bad. Just like with GD deaths; 1M, 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #55 December 6, 2009 QuoteQuote Right, the rattle from the RW is that of, what if Obamacare fails. They are in such stark denial that HC isn't a current failure and a raving success that they can't grasp WE ARE IN A MAJORLY FAILED MESS NOW. In my opinion nobody with even a half of brain would seriously consider what right wing says on this matter. They already defend the stuff which has been failed already (where are those WMDs?), so their attack on something which just _may_ fail looks like a fat chick joke. Right, but you still have to give em a wake up and see if they are ready for reality yet. I see they're not; they still think the current system is a raving success. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #56 December 6, 2009 Quote Who said that? What I heard is that the bill should slow down or temporary stop the healthcare cost _increase_. I've heard "reduce costs" a bunch, but wasn't able to find it explicitly mentioned anywhere with a quick search. Fair enough. Quote The average insurance premiums doubled during last ten years, meaning that private industry is not able (or does not want) to do that. Why would they not want to? It would be in their best interest to reduce costs (lower costs = more profits). Being able to do this would allow them to lower their premiums and make them more competitive in the market. Quote You already have rationing of care - people kicked out of plans, insurance denies claims, and so on. What exactly is your concern? I'm concerned the decision of rationing care goes from individuals and the market to the government. I'm capable of making my own health care choices, and providing for my own care. I don't want that right taken away and given to some government bureaucrat who has no motivation to consider any of my interests - only his/her own. Quote Who said that? Everyone touting this plan has been saying it will reduce the deficit. I personally believe that the medicare cuts that have been proposed will be nixed as it gets closer to election time if it passes. (It's not politically convenient). Quote This would mean existing insurance companies are run so badly that they cannot compete even with shitty, wasteful and poorly-run service provided by the government How can they compete with an entity that controls ("regulates") them, one that has what would appear to have an endless supply of money? Quote If service provided by UPS was worse and more expensive than the one provided by USPS, I wouldn't have no problem with them going out of business. When is the last time you went to the DMV and left thinking how great their customer service was? If I ship something UPS, I go to the UPS store and give them an item and an address and they'll usually package it up and label it for me. Last time I went to the post office the lady at the counter told me i should have had the label on the envelope and ready before I got there (apparently I'm supposed to keep USPS priority mail envelopes at home). Quote What if it does? A new company would take their market share instead. Would it mean something dramatic to you? Only if you invested into the failed company. Unless of course the government made it unlawful to be a competitor. They would never do that would they? Quote Probably exactly the same what was done after spending billions of dollars and a bunch of lives lost it was obvious there are no WMDs in Iraq. So the answer to one failing government intervention is to start another one? Quote Likely, as they did it with Iraq. At least Republican money would be used for something useful for the citizens of America, not just for something harmful for others. Again, you provide an example of a failed government action as reason to enact another one? Is "they fucked it up, why can we have the opportunity to fuck something up too?" the argument you're trying to make? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #57 December 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Then we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? It's funny how you attack others for using supposedly bad sources when you make up facts left and right. I can't name an HMO CEO period. I guess with you connies I have to be litteral. So they onlyh make 50mill a year, my bad. Just like with GD deaths; 1M, 5 Why would I bother with someone who openly admits to being a liar? At least you didn't drag it out this before before yielding to the fraud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #58 December 6, 2009 Quote Why would they not want to? It would be in their best interest to reduce costs (lower costs = more profits). Being able to do this would allow them to lower their premiums and make them more competitive in the market. If we're into speculation mode, there is a lot of reasons why wouldn't they want to. For example, as I said from my own example, while my insurance premium went up significantly during last four years, the amount insurance pays to the doctor for office visit didn't go up at all. It might go to hospitals to pay for uninsured patients care, or it might go to pay 4M salaries to various insurance executives. And being pretty much a monopoly (note the anti-trust exemption), they do not really care about competition. Quote I'm concerned the decision of rationing care goes from individuals and the market to the government. I'm capable of making my own health care choices, and providing for my own care. I don't want that right taken away and given to some government bureaucrat who has no motivation to consider any of my interests - only his/her own. The only way to have your healthcare not rationed is to pay cash for everything. If you use ANY kind of insurance, the insurance provider WILL ration your healthcare to save the costs (and pass some of the savings to you). I bet your existing insurance policy has already a long list of what is covered and what is not, that there are things which only are covered if authorized by the insurer, and there are things which are covered with some limitation (for example, up to ten massage sessions in a year). So what you're saying is that you prefer your current insurer to ration your healthcare than your government. Which is fine, as the bill provides you with such option. Quote Everyone touting this plan has been saying it will reduce the deficit. I personally believe that the medicare cuts that have been proposed will be nixed as it gets closer to election time if it passes. (It's not politically convenient). You know, "everyone" typically means "nobody specific". What I personally expect is that it would slow down the growing healthcare costs - which add to deficit as more and more people turn to "go to ER and do not pay" service model. So far no country I know was efficient in reducing their healthcare costs; containing the costs is challenging enough. However I expect this reduced grows to be less than double in ten years, as provided by private industry. Quote How can they compete with an entity that controls ("regulates") them, one that has what would appear to have an endless supply of money? How can then UPS (which is controlled/"regulated" by government) compete with USPS, which in theory can deliver everything everywhere for free using taxpayer money? Why USPS does not deliver everything for free? Quote When is the last time you went to the DMV and left thinking how great their customer service was? Just a month ago I renewed registration for one of my cars. Had to call DMV to correct some details. Spent 10 minutes total. Comparing this to my insurance company, there were times when I had to wait more than ten minutes just to speak with a live person, then forwarded to another person, this is excellent service. And my last encounter with HP - pretty much at the same time - fixing my laptop was so badly that I wrote a bunch of complains to BBB and a bunch of state boards - I spent over five hours on the phone total, most of it indeed just being on hold. Having seen more than one government in action I'd say U.S. government provides very quality service for the costs it's being paid for it. Quote If I ship something UPS, I go to the UPS store and give them an item and an address and they'll usually package it up and label it for me. Last time I went to the post office the lady at the counter told me i should have had the label on the envelope and ready before I got there (apparently I'm supposed to keep USPS priority mail envelopes at home). Last year I used both USPS and UPS, and have a first-hand experience to compare. When I went last time to USPS office, the lady told me that if I repack my shipment into priority flat rate box, I gonna save $4 on shipping. So I did - and while I might have done it right on the counter, I decided to do it on a separate shelf, so it would leave the counter ready for someone who'd get some service. Once I was back in line - with a repacked box and written label - she called me, saying that I do not have to stay in line now, and shipped my box seamlessly. Regarding priority mail envelopes - why not? Some time ago I went to usps.com and ordered USPS priority mail envelopes - they are free(!) - and had them at my home in a week. I also always try to print labels online before I go to post office, as not only it is easier, it is also cheaper. Quote Unless of course the government made it unlawful to be a competitor. They would never do that would they? To discuss a potential action, we need to go through reality check first. Why would the government do that? Why didn't it ban UPS/FedEx, as it would obviously increase USPS profits? Why doesn't it ban private universities, as it would bring more tuition for public ones? Quote So the answer to one failing government intervention is to start another one? I think it's common sense to say that you will never know if the thing will work until you try it, and the only person who doesn't make mistakes is the one who doesn't do anything. But anyway, what is your suggestion? Invent a time machine, jump back in time and stop this intervention before it passes? Or do not pass any measure, because any of them may fail, no matter how much safeguards you put in? Quote Is "they fucked it up, why can we have the opportunity to fuck something up too?" the argument you're trying to make? No. This is more likely "they tried things a lot of people told them would fuck up, but they still tried it and it fucked up. So they're not really in position to tell us that we should not try this thing just because they think it would fuck up".* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #59 December 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Then we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? It's funny how you attack others for using supposedly bad sources when you make up facts left and right. I can't name an HMO CEO period. I guess with you connies I have to be litteral. So they onlyh make 50mill a year, my bad. Just like with GD deaths; 1M, 5 Why would I bother with someone who openly admits to being a liar? At least you didn't drag it out this before before yielding to the fraud. This is your misdirection. Hillarious. I write, "10-digit" salaries as a metaphore for being overpaid and you take it literally. And your ilk made fun of me for not being aware of the Onion . NOTE TO ALL POSTERS: Only make literal references when talking to Kelp10-digit salaries are at least 1 billion dolars per year, I don't think anyone in the world has ever made a billion dollars as a salary per year, not even Bill Gates. Now his worth will fluctuate well over a billion a year based upon the market, but I doubt he draws a billion dollar paycheck. Wait, let me say a 13-digit salary, that way we can argue that it is a trillion dollar salary. Anyway, you obvioulsy want a distraction to avoid addressing HMO CEO's massive salaries at the cost of many people getting HC. You're right, CEO's getting 26-digit salaries is more important than the average good-for-nothing, lowlife, poor person getting HC. Rich people = good, poor people are trash; I agree with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #60 December 6, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Then we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? It's funny how you attack others for using supposedly bad sources when you make up facts left and right. I can't name an HMO CEO period. I guess with you connies I have to be litteral. So they onlyh make 50mill a year, my bad. Just like with GD deaths; 1M, 5 Why would I bother with someone who openly admits to being a liar? At least you didn't drag it out this before before yielding to the fraud. Here ya go, if ya wanna get away from exadgeration that was obvious to all but you to make the point, let's talk the CEO from United HC Goup making 124.8M. That's the point, not only is so much waste rapped up in 1 guy making that kind of money, but all the other administrative losses as well. Is this a good thing? In your world YES. You defend that and you won't talk about it. This is why your guys are watching real politicians running the country; people are sick of Kelpenomics, Kelpcare, etc. This is what makes America a toilet; 1 guy making 124.8 for doing nothing and 40M going w/o HC. Pardon me, he does things like lobby against that 40M getting HC, creative ways to deny claims, etc. So he is a good guy......IN KELP'S WORLD. He's a fascist pig, Kelp; GET THE PICTURE YET? Why is it necesary that 1 guy earn 125M in 2005, likely more now, altho it's purely symbolic after that, why do we need to rap our HC system in 1 guy making that kind of sick cash? Then there's that 40M+ people that you apparently think are trash or otherwise undeserving of HC over that punks 125M salary, and you sit there and criticize Obamacare. Nice. http://healthcare-economist.com/2006/02/14/united-health-ceo-earned-1248-million-in-2005/ So just keep up the charade so you don't have to address the issue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #61 December 6, 2009 Here's a site with data. Not sure what teh agenda is or if the data is valid, it appears to be but we can check it. http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/are-health-insurers-making-too-much-money/ Insurer: Company Profits: CEO Total Compensation: CEO 5 Year Compensation: UnitedHealth Group $2,977,000,000 $5,030,000 – WellPoint $2,490,700,000 $4,070,000 – Atena $1,384,100,000 $38,860,000 $77,860,000 Humana $647,000,000 $2,390,000 $56,910,000 Cigna $292,000,000 $30,016,000 $120,510,000 Despite lower than expected profits, insurers are not holding back. The industry already set records from January to March, “when health-care firms and their lobbyists spent money at the rate of $1.4 million a day” on campaigns designed to influence the health care reform legislation now moving through Congress. So the market is down so profits are down, but fighting HC reform is on the agenda, HUGE. They could be finding better ways to provide more coverage to more people and make the necessity for a public option void, but instead they will take their ill-gotten gains and use it to combat everyone getting HC. And the Republicans back this wasting of HMO resource. WE GET IT, REPUBLICANS / CONSERVATIVES. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #62 December 6, 2009 QuoteQuote Then we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? . Easy - just include the 2 digits in the cents column.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #63 December 7, 2009 QuoteI didn't say that, I said the thread is meaningless. And provided an example as to why it would be meaningless It is not meaningless.... Asking what you would do to prevent what could be a gigantic error from becoming a permanent gigantic error is not meaningless."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #64 December 7, 2009 According to Morningstar, the profit margin for insurance companies over the past year was 3.4%. That's so high that they ranked 87th out of 215 industries. Of course salaries are part of the subtraction when calculating profit margin so companies can still pay execs a shit load (read; free country). It also includes paychecks to all employees, taxes, expenses, etc. All I'm saying is that listing a number (from a web adress that contains the phrase making-too-much-money) out of context isn't a valid comparison to the rest of the corporate world. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #65 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteLooking through the plan brochure it sounds like extremely shitty plan, and I wonder how many people actually getting it. Your opinion. If you like those plans you'll love THIS one. A poster child for why the government should be involved.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #66 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteLooking through the plan brochure it sounds like extremely shitty plan, and I wonder how many people actually getting it. Your opinion. If you like those plans you'll love THIS one. A poster child for why the government should be involved. They are involved in things like this. It's call fraud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #67 December 7, 2009 Worth repeating QuoteTaxpayers will pay dearly. It is clear that some just do not care about the cost."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #68 December 7, 2009 Quote Evidently NOT a 'ghost plan', since it exists. I have done this EXACT same thing in another thread... No matter that my Wife SOLD HC plans and I was able to pull up plan after plan..... They still claimed they didn't exist Simple fact is they just don't care about the facts... They want HC and are not willing to pay for it themselves. They want EVERYONE to have to pay for it so they can get it for "free". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #69 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLooking through the plan brochure it sounds like extremely shitty plan, and I wonder how many people actually getting it. Your opinion. If you like those plans you'll love THIS one. A poster child for why the government should be involved. They are involved in things like this. It's call fraud. Fraud is just capitalism taken to the extreme. Like this. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #70 December 7, 2009 QuoteWorth repeating Quote Taxpayers will pay dearly. It is clear that some just do not care about the cost. It is equally clear that a lot of us actually do realize that it costs money and we are willing to pay for it for everyone... Everyone pays, everyone gets. just like the military, roads, schools, medicare, whatever. here we go again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #71 December 7, 2009 QuoteThen we will have the satisfaction of knowing we are now considered a normal industrialized country instead of the bastardized version we now have. So it is better we follow down the path that has failed before... Just so we "fit in"? Quotethere would be more people eligible for all kinds of care, so there would be more demand, hence the supply would adapt to the demand and expand as well. Sorry, basic economic theories do not support this. 1. Demand goes up, PRICES go up. As prices go up, company's would try to enter the market if there was a chance they could turn a profit.... But since the whole idea of a public option is to control costs you will instead see company's LEAVE the market further reducing supply and therefore INCREASING price in everything but the PO..... Of course the PO will also increase in cost, but that will just be added to the deficit. 2. HC would fall under what is called an "inelastic demand". Normal supply demand curves don't apply anyway.... Gas is another example, but it is even more flexible than HC. 3. You keep saying there is ALREADY demand.... So why hasn't supply already adapted like you claim? QuoteVirtually every admin has a debt increase, the whoppers have come under presidents with an R next to their name other than of course WWII and other times like that. Times like a war you mean? Like the wars we have now? QuoteThen we'll have fewer CEo's maing 10-digit salaries as they trade American health for corporate profit. Then all you will have left is the Govt in charge of your HC.... You know, the same people who can't run SS, medicaid, medicare.... The same people who buy 400 hammers. Yeah, the Govt is good at controlling costs. Quote Gee, they have with so many others, why not? I find it funny you complain about the deficit... Till you REALLY like the program, then it is fine to add to it. QuoteI can't name an HMO CEO period. I guess with you connies I have to be litteral [SIC] Well, you can't just make up shit and expect everyone to accept it.... Especially when you jump all over others for doing it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #72 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLooking through the plan brochure it sounds like extremely shitty plan, and I wonder how many people actually getting it. Your opinion. If you like those plans you'll love THIS one. A poster child for why the government should be involved. They are involved in things like this. It's call fraud. Fraud is just capitalism taken to the extreme. LOL. You so funny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #73 December 7, 2009 Quote How can then UPS (which is controlled/"regulated" by government) compete with USPS Because they offer a better service than the USPS. But funny how you ignored how UPS is , BY LAW, not allowed to compete with the USPS. Quote Last year I used both USPS and UPS, and have a first-hand experience to compare. Anecdote != Data. Quote they are free(!) They are not "free". You pay for them. Quote Why didn't it ban UPS/FedEx, as it would obviously increase USPS profits? Again you ignore that BY LAW UPS/FedEx is NOT ALLOWED TO COMPETE WITH THE USPS..... And I have cite the law.... Yet you STILL ignore it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #74 December 7, 2009 Quotejust like the military You think the military runs well? Quote roads You think the roads are run well? http://www.startribune.com/local/65160682.html?elr=KArksi8D3PE7_8yc+D3aiUo8D3PE7_eyc+D3aiUeyc+D3aUU Quoteschools You think public schools are doing a better job than private Universities? Quotemedicare Medicare is not running well either. QuoteEveryone pays, everyone gets. Unless you plan on taxing the homeless.... It is not everyone pays."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #75 December 7, 2009 QuoteQuote Can you name a SINGLE CEO making a 10 digit salary? . Easy - just include the 2 digits in the cents column. Laughing - good reply. Too bad Lucky can't learn from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
