4 cops shot dead at a coffeee house in Washington State

[Krip 2]

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After all i should be no match for you, with all of your high dollar education and all.

Hell in another thread he was an aviation expert. Everything from a Cessna to the B-2 and every airliner in between. He's a jack of all trades!

Hi Rookie

Jack of all trades?

Could be but we havesn't seen the Lucky expert post on DZ.com outside of SC. 6500 posts in SC to date and increasing daily.

Me thinks Lucky's expert knowledge in Jumping is zippo

One Jump Wonder

[quade 4]

Dave --

Help me understand something. A lot of civilian folk talk about carrying weapons to stop just this sort of thing from happening. They talk about how one individual could put a stop to a nutcase gunman on a rampage.

I don't want to debate that issue right now, but what I would like to know is how is it possible for this guy to have caught four (presumably armed) police officers off guard in such a way that none of them was able to react fast enough to prevent at least the last of them from getting shot?

I would assume that even the most rookie cop has had some training above and beyond what the average CC holder has. I further assume the police officers' weapons are always with them and ready to fire on a moments notice. If these four trained police officers couldn't defend themselves from a determined killer, then what chance does anybody ever really have?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JohnDeere 0]

Quade, think coffee house. Small area. Cop's most likely sitting next to each other, with uniform on (target on back). A pistol can be unloaded before most will know what is going on. Think if all 4 are sitting at a booth. Miss one, no problem you may hit the one across the table from him. Just unload the clip. Its obvious. If the average person is armed in a crowd (or even a coffee house) then the bad guy has no clue who has the gun.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[AggieDave 6]

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I would assume that even the most rookie cop has had some training above and beyond what the average CC holder has. I further assume the police officers' weapons are always with them and ready to fire on a moments notice. If these four trained police officers couldn't defend themselves from a determined killer, then what chance does anybody ever really have?

My guess is that these guys were caught in condition white. They were in a favorite place, all on their laptops and no one watching the front/door area. Getting loose in your tactical security happens to people.

The mindset is more important then any weapon or training that you have. Being aware of what is around you and ready to act before others can even react, that is what will keep you safe.

So what can the average citizen do? Get as good of training as you can get. That doesn't have to be in firearms alone. I know that all the martial arts training that I took through out the last 16 years of my life, that it helped hone my senses and my awareness of my surroundings. Further training helps as well. Tactical defense courses helps with that mindset as well. Personally I recommend people like the Grey Group, Spartan Tactical and Paul Howe's courses.

LEO's typically have training further than civilians; however, they are people too and will let their guard down. They can also be persons who don't have a tactical mindset, although I'm not saying that is what happened in this case. I know that a lot of departments train "active shooter" scenarios very hard and work hard in their FTO programs to train a tactically sound mindset.

Its not just LEOs that can be aware, though. Take someone like our own mod, Scott. I promise you he's a much better tactical ninja than I am! He has better training and more experience; however, even he could be caught unaware in a setting in which he returns to condition yellow or white.

Feel free to PM me if you have concerns or want to learn more.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Dave --

Help me understand something. A lot of civilian folk talk about carrying weapons to stop just this sort of thing from happening. They talk about how one individual could put a stop to a nutcase gunman on a rampage.

I don't want to debate that issue right now, but what I would like to know is how is it possible for this guy to have caught four (presumably armed) police officers off guard in such a way that none of them was able to react fast enough to prevent at least the last of them from getting shot?

I would assume that even the most rookie cop has had some training above and beyond what the average CC holder has. I further assume the police officers' weapons are always with them and ready to fire on a moments notice. If these four trained police officers couldn't defend themselves from a determined killer, then what chance does anybody ever really have?

Not Dave, but...

How do soldiers get ambushed? Same principle.

Not making a joke about this situation, but there was an HBO movie back in 1990, a western/comedy with Lou Gossett Jr and Anthony Edwards called El Diablo. Lou Gosset Jr played an old, experienced gunfighter. He gave the best way to win a gunfight I ever heard.

"Square off, look the man straight in the back and shoot him before he knows you are there."

That's just about what happened here. The cops were sitting in a coffee shop, working on their laptops, when this guy opened fire. The first one or two probably never knew what hit them. The others probably had just enough time to realize what was happening, but not enough time to come to a defensive posture.

Most cops don't train all that much. Although some are very good, many aren't. I've shot with a few at my local range (I'm a range officer, and a couple of the local departments train there). I'm better than most of them, at least on the firing range. How it would be in the real world would be a different situation. On the range, ready and waiting, it takes me about 1.5 seconds to draw and fire two shots. I'm not bad, the real pro competition shooters with "race guns" and holsters can do it in about 3/4 sec. Add on recognition and reaction time and it's at least 2 or 3 seconds under the best of circumstances. If I already have my weapon out, I can put 2 shots into each of 4 closely spaced targets in that time without too much trouble.

It's also a mental game. These cops weren't expecting any trouble, so they weren't "on guard". Being mentally prepared for an ambush is the best defense against one, but nobody is capable of maintaining that level of alertness constantly, mainly because there isn't a need to.

Anybody, civilian or cop, who gets into a quick-draw shootout has gotten in a bad situation. The places and times when an armed person can make a difference is not when they are facing the armed criminal, but when they have a chance to get the drop on the bad guy. Think about the last bank scene in Point Break. If the Ex-presidents hadn't been wearing body armor, the off duty cop would have had a halfway decent chance of being a hero.

I know perfectly well that movies aren't real life, but I know you are in the industry, and I'm trying to give references that are at least close to realistic.

Realistically, in a mass shooting situation, (if I was armed) I'd work a rear guard position to protect the escape of others, possibly setting an ambush up so that if the bad guy came into my field of fire, I'd be able to take him out.
If I was sitting in the food court when the bad guy opened fire, I wouldn't have too much chance unless he started off shooting away from me.
There is absolutely no way I'd go towards a shooting situation unless I had no other choice (like a family member waiting in the food court while I was elsewhere).

Being armed isn't a magic solution to any attack, it just provides a means of defense if you have time to use it.

Edit to add: In the time I thought out my post, Dave replied. I have no argument with anything he said.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rwieder 0]

Hey guys, see this updated URL about the shooting. Also accross my television screen, police have arrested a "Person Of Interest"

Updated Story Here

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PARKLAND, Wash. - Investigators identified a man with an extensive criminal past as a "person of interest" in the ambush on four police officers, who were shot to death Sunday morning at a coffee shop.The four officers were with the 100-member police department of Lakewood, which adjoins the unincorporated area of Parkland, where the shootings took place. The city identified the victims as Sgt. Mark Renninger, 39; Ronald Owens, 37; Tina Griswold, 40; and Greg Richards 42.

Possible struggle
Troyer said one of those officers fought with the gunman and may have wounded him before the officer died just outside the doorway. He told reporters that investigators were asking area medical providers to report any people wounded by gunshots.

Troyer said investigators believe two of the officers were shot dead while sitting in the shop, and a third was killed after standing up. The fourth apparently struggled with the gunman out the doorway and "gave up a good fight," getting off a few shots before he was either shot there or succumbed to earlier wounds.

"We believe there was a struggle, a commotion, a fight ... that he fought the guy all the way out the door," Troyer said.

He added, "We hope that he hit him."

Troyer said the gunman entered the coffee house and walked up to the counter as if to place an order. A barista saw a gun when the man opened his jacket and fled out the back door. The man then turned and opened fire on the officers as they sat working on their laptops, killing the three men and one woman in what Troyer described as a targeted ambush.

Troyer said the attack was clearly targeted at the officers, not a robbery gone bad.

"This was more of an execution. Walk in with the specific mindset to shoot police officers," he said.

Troyer said the officers — all from the Lakewood Police Department — were catching up on paperwork at the beginning of their shifts when they were attacked at 8:15 a.m. Sunday.

"There were marked patrol cars outside and they were all in uniform," Troyer said.

There was no indication of any connection with the Halloween night shooting of a Seattle police officer. The suspect in that shooting remains hospitalized.

"We won't know if it's a copycat effect or what it was until we get the case solved," Troyer said. "We don't even have a suspect ID right now."

Troyer estimated that a couple of hundred officers from the Washington State Patrol and multiple surrounding police agencies in the area were at the crime scene, with some coming on their own time.

"We have no motive at all," Troyer said. "I don't think when we find out what it is, it will be anything that makes any sense or be worth it."

You can view this story in it's entireity on the clicky URL I have added in the top portion of this post.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[Krip 2]

Hi R

The latest local news (Tacoma Wa) reports the person of interest is still on the loose.

The local news is also reporting the person of interest just made Bond $150k 6 days ago after being charged In Pierce County in Washington state for third-degree assault on a police officer, and second-degree rape of a child.

So the bad person was looking at 3 strikes BEFORE their latest bad deed.

One Jump Wonder

[justinb138 0]

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n 1989, Clemmons, then 17, was convicted in Little Rock for aggravated robbery. He was paroled in 2000 after Huckabee commuted a 95-year prison sentence. Huckabee, who was criticized during his run for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008 for granting many clemencies and commutations, cited Clemmons' youth. Clemmons later violated his parole, was returned to prison and released in 2004.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h6HGmTEc_kIALqJfG0r_WSGGFGZgD9C9PGK00

[Lucky... 0]

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n 1989, Clemmons, then 17, was convicted in Little Rock for aggravated robbery. He was paroled in 2000 after Huckabee commuted a 95-year prison sentence. Huckabee, who was criticized during his run for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008 for granting many clemencies and commutations, cited Clemmons' youth. Clemmons later violated his parole, was returned to prison and released in 2004.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h6HGmTEc_kIALqJfG0r_WSGGFGZgD9C9PGK00

That won't be good in 2012 for Huckabe, for a party that has yet to produce any viable candidates.

[kallend 2,148]

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I would assume that even the most rookie cop has had some training above and beyond what the average CC holder has. I further assume the police officers' weapons are always with them and ready to fire on a moments notice. If these four trained police officers couldn't defend themselves from a determined killer, then what chance does anybody ever really have?

My guess is that these guys were caught in condition white. They were in a favorite place, all on their laptops and no one watching the front/door area. Getting loose in your tactical security happens to people.

Surely the average civilian is far more likely to be in a "condition white" than a trained police officer, at pretty much any time.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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There are no stats available to support the theory that cops are coddled. Of course I can provide arrest and bond details on many cases that are so weak any reasonable person could see the difference between that and the way regular people are dealt with.

As for knowing what I'm talkign abiut[SIC]

You ALWAYS jump people for not providing FACTS... Now everyone should just listen to you when you can't provide them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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Surely the average civilian is far more likely to be in a "condition white" than a trained police officer, at pretty much any time.

You would hope so. Although I'm not going to say this is the case with these four officers, some officers aren't very tactically minded. Some officers have been off of patrol too long (doing office type jobs) and they have lost the edge and the mindset. This incident has me thinking of specific times in the last 6 months that something similar could have have happened to me and my friends. A lot of officers across the country today are thinking and talking about these murders and thinking about their day to day. They're also making mental notes so they will hopefully react quicker more effectively.

The other thing to think about is that these officers probably went to this coffee shop all the time. They were relaxed there, they knew the staff well as well as most of the regular patrons who typically came in day to day at similar times. Then also note that it is mentally and physically taxing to be at a high level of alert all the time. Although I'm not saying that these guys were in condition white or weren't tactically sound. Reaction is much slower than action and the suspect was probably able to get off 4-5 shot before any one could get cover or even start to draw their weapons. I would be curious to know if the officers had body armor on. I'm a huge believer in body armor always being worn while in uniform.

Another story that I'm reminded of is the officer that was shot in the doorway of his own house. He had a take home car in the driveway. The suspect was driving around looking for a "cop to kill." He saw the car, stopped, range the door bell and shot the deputy when he answered the door. The deputy was wearing a pistol while at home and was able to return fire. The deputy had his wife call 911. The suspect was taken into custody and spent significant time in the hospital. The deputy also had multiple gun shot wounds and spent time in the hospital. The deputy lived, though.

That incident is an example of even at the place where you live, where you should be able to relax the most, it can still be dangerous.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Surely the average civilian is far more likely to be in a "condition white" than a trained police officer, at pretty much any time.

...The other thing to think about is that these officers probably went to this coffee shop all the time. They were relaxed there, they knew the staff well as well as most of the regular patrons who typically came in day to day at similar times. Then also note that it is mentally and physically taxing to be at a high level of alert all the time. Although I'm not saying that these guys were in condition white or weren't tactically sound. Reaction is much slower than action and the suspect was probably able to get off 4-5 shot before any one could get cover or even start to draw their weapons. I would be curious to know if the officers had body armor on. I'm a huge believer in body armor always being worn while in uniform...

...That incident is an example of even at the place where you live, where you should be able to relax the most, it can still be dangerous.

One thing I got out of the story is that the bad guy entered the shop, walked up to the counter, then turned, pulled out the gun and opened fire.

Although far from perfect, I try to maintain "condition Yellow" as much as possible. I make a habit of sitting where I can see the door (and having 2 directions to exit) whenever possible. I make it a habit to give a quick look to anyone who walks in. But I am not paranoid enough to try to keep track of everyone in the place all the time.
These officers may well have noticed the guy walk in, given him a quick look, and when he didn't present an immediate threat, went back to whatever they were doing.

I don't see it in the current story, but I think I had read earlier that they were wearing body armor.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

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One thing I got out of the story is that the bad guy entered the shop, walked up to the counter, then turned, pulled out the gun and opened fire.

Yup. I saw that too.

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These officers may well have noticed the guy walk in, given him a quick look, and when he didn't present an immediate threat, went back to whatever they were doing.

That is important. If you tried to keep track of every single person in every public setting while you were there, you would burn up and burn out in under a month. So people typically use body clues, facial clues and situational clues to mitigate having to constantly track every single person.

A new twist is that apparently Huckabee commuted the suspect's sentence when he was governor. Also, apparently the suspect is known to have severe mental health issues (which should be no surprise except to the previously posting legal expert and LEO hater).

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/11/huckabee.php?ref=fpblg

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

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Help me understand something. A lot of civilian folk talk about carrying weapons to stop just this sort of thing from happening. They talk about how one individual could put a stop to a nutcase gunman on a rampage.

I don't want to debate that issue right now, but what I would like to know is how is it possible for this guy to have caught four (presumably armed) police officers off guard in such a way that none of them was able to react fast enough to prevent at least the last of them from getting shot?

I would assume that even the most rookie cop has had some training above and beyond what the average CC holder has. I further assume the police officers' weapons are always with them and ready to fire on a moments notice. If these four trained police officers couldn't defend themselves from a determined killer, then what chance does anybody ever really have?

A great question.

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They talk about how one individual could put a stop to a nutcase gunman on a rampage.

We talk about it because it happens.

Jeanne Assam took down a shooter who had just killed 2 teenagers in the parking lot and went into the main Church that had 7k people in it with 2 handguns, a rifle and 1,000 rounds of ammunition

Robert Shockey in Orlando saved his sons life by being armed.

Joel Myrick, assistant principal at Pearl High School in Pearl, Miss. The shooter ,Luke Woodham, had killed his Mom and two others before trying to escape. Myrick went out to his car and got a pistol and was able to sneak up to the shooter and hold him till the Police arrived 4 or 5 mins later.

In January 2002, a Student at the School of Law in Grundy, Virginia, shot and killed the dean, a professor, and a fellow student. He was disarmed and subdued before he could harm anyone else by two students who retrieved guns from their automobiles.

The point is it does happen and that's why we say it can.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2009/07/man-carrying-gun-stops-robber-who-had.html

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/1_shot_1_stabbe.html

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but what I would like to know is how is it possible for this guy to have caught four (presumably armed) police officers off guard in such a way that none of them was able to react fast enough to prevent at least the last of them from getting shot?

Ambushes are easy. You have 4 people sitting together with no clue they are being targeted, it is easy to "get the drop" on them. The first reaction for the targets is confusion (what???), then they identify the problem (we are taking fire!), then they have to identify the source, then decide a course of action and then implement it. Even if trained that process takes seconds and even with a revolver the guy could fire 5-6 shots in that time.

It is like the saying that if someone REALLY wants to steal something... they are going to steal it no matter what you do. The same is true if someone REALLY wants to kill you.

The initial target has VERY little chance if the guy plans on killing him flat out. But the OTHERS have a chance.

Case in point is the Luby's in TX years ago. A woman left her gun int he car and a nutter killed 23 people an wounded 20 more. The woman, Suzanna Gratia Hupp had a gun in her car and stated she had several opportunities to take a shot if she had had her gun with her.

You most likely have seen this link before, but here it is again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhyuJzjOcQE&feature=related

So you are correct that very few people will survive a madman that plans an ambush designed to kill them. But there are also numerous cases of people with guns stopping a nutter right after he started his spree.

And as Suzanna Gratia Hupp said... At least it changes the odds.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

Ron, another aspect to remember is that while the suspect was targeting and fixated on the officers in the coffee shop, an armed civilian would have had the drop on the suspect. That could have dramatically changed the outcome.

Where I live, there is a better than even chance that could occur (that a civilian could successfully intervene and save the day) in a situation like this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

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Surely the average civilian is far more likely to be in a "condition white" than a trained police officer, at pretty much any time.

You would hope, but with exposure comes complacency. These guys were not walking a beat, they were doing reports at the start of their shift in a comfortable and known place. There were in what they considered to be a "safe zone" and they had "backup".

I don't fault the police for not being "on" in this situation.

They were ambushed.... There is not much you can do about being ambushed.

And the story seems to be reporting that two were killed almost instantly, one was able to start to engage, and the 4th was able to engage and shoot the suspect.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ryoder 1,590]

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Ron, another aspect to remember is that while the suspect was targeting and fixated on the officers in the coffee shop, an armed civilian would have had the drop on the suspect. That could have dramatically changed the outcome.

Where I live, there is a better than even chance that could occur (that a civilian could successfully intervene and save the day) in a situation like this.

Are you saying that >50% of the civilians in your area are carrying?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[AggieDave 6]

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Are you saying that >50% of the civilians in your area are carrying?

No, just that in any given moment in a crowd of people, there is most likely at least one person with a Texas CHL.

So in a popular coffee house that is also a cop hangout, there will most likely be at least one person with a CHL and possibly carrying a weapon.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

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Ron, another aspect to remember is that while the suspect was targeting and fixated on the officers in the coffee shop, an armed civilian would have had the drop on the suspect. That could have dramatically changed the outcome.

Very true.

These officers were ambushed for being cops... An armed civilian or a plain clothed officer might not have saved them (very few people can survive an ambush), but might have been able to stop the attacker right there.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,148]

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Surely the average civilian is far more likely to be in a "condition white" than a trained police officer, at pretty much any time.

...The other thing to think about is that these officers probably went to this coffee shop all the time. They were relaxed there, they knew the staff well as well as most of the regular patrons who typically came in day to day at similar times. Then also note that it is mentally and physically taxing to be at a high level of alert all the time. Although I'm not saying that these guys were in condition white or weren't tactically sound. Reaction is much slower than action and the suspect was probably able to get off 4-5 shot before any one could get cover or even start to draw their weapons. I would be curious to know if the officers had body armor on. I'm a huge believer in body armor always being worn while in uniform...

...That incident is an example of even at the place where you live, where you should be able to relax the most, it can still be dangerous.

One thing I got out of the story is that the bad guy entered the shop, walked up to the counter, then turned, pulled out the gun and opened fire.

Although far from perfect, I try to maintain "condition Yellow" as much as possible. I make a habit of sitting where I can see the door (and having 2 directions to exit) whenever possible. I make it a habit to give a quick look to anyone who walks in. But I am not paranoid enough to try to keep track of everyone in the place all the time.

Well, we all have our own definition of paranoid, I guess.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 4]

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. . . I make a habit of sitting where I can see the door . . .

Well, we all have our own definition of paranoid, I guess.

Unfamiliar venues or even familiar ones in sketchy areas . . . even I do that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 10]

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Well, we all have our own definition of paranoid, I guess.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,148]

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. . . I make a habit of sitting where I can see the door . . .

Well, we all have our own definition of paranoid, I guess.

Unfamiliar venues or even familiar ones in sketchy areas . . . even I do that.

I guess working on the south side of Chicago just leads to complacency.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

It's sad that four people were murdered, all the more so because the only reason seems to have been what they were wearing. Can you imagine how different the outcry and this thread would be if the offending accessories had been turbans instead of badges? That's pretty sad too.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)