Chris-Ottawa 0 #1 August 28, 2006 Hey everyone, I did a 10k H+P this weekend and had a PCIT for about 5 seconds. Eventually it opened up and all was well. This brought me to a question. If you had a mal on a 10 k H+P would you chop right away or would you wait until you were a bit lower. This may come off as a dumb question but I'd like the opinion of some more experienced pilots. Obviously the mal would dictate what you would do and how quick, but here's some scenarios. For these scenarios, please give whether you would you chop and go reserve right away or fly it to 3-4k and then do EP's. Please give detail as to why you would make such choices -Pilot chute in tow (You are unable to manually pull the pin by reaching back) -Bag Lock -Slider hangup (Canopy is just sniveling) -Unable to find hackey/Hard pull The reasons I ask these are: 1 - To shorten the reserve ride 2 - Reduce chance of losing canopy and freebag There very well may be other scenarios but I'm just curious what the general public would do. Obviouosly if this was a 3500 H+P this question and scenarios have zero relevance."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #2 August 28, 2006 Good thing you did not jump the gun and react to the suspected PCIT prematurely. What likely happened is that you deployed your PC before reaching terminal velocity or at least a fall rate sufficient to create enough drag to create adequate force to initiate the deployment of the main, once you gained speed the drag created by the PC increased until enough force was applied to initiate main deployment. Never try to manually extract you pin by reaching back seems to be the opinion of most instructors that I know. Bag Lock: A friend of mine had a bag lock up high and decided to ride it down to a lower altitude before the chop so he wouldn’t loose his main, the canopy opened violently at 8k and broke his back in a couple places. Might have been better to replace the canopy because backs are hard to come by. Slider Hang Up: Best to go with your training and remember that altitude awareness is essential when dealing with a potentially fixable partial malfunction. Unable to find or hard pull: Best to go with you training at your experience level (37 jumps), try twice then deploy the reserve. There has been some good discussion in the not so recent past about all the issues you are raising, so a search and you will find some good food for thought. You helath is much more important that your canopy.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 53 #3 August 28, 2006 Quote Never try to manually extract you pin by reaching back seems to be the opinion of most instructors that I know. . Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #4 August 28, 2006 Your hand is in the general vicinity of the lines coming out once you pull the pin. Not to mention the nasty gash, or line burns if you got lucky and didn't get tangled. Imagine one wraps around your wrist, not good. Your hand becomes a potential snag point. In my opinion, I would consider trying it anyways because I'm a bit paranoid of a cord and mini-parachute dragging behind me when my reserve is going to come out and take that same path. If it were to get slightly tangled, it would get very ugly very quick."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #5 August 28, 2006 QuoteYour hand is in the general vicinity of the lines coming out once you pull the pin. Not to mention the nasty gash, or line burns if you got lucky and didn't get tangled. Imagine one wraps around your wrist, not good. Your hand becomes a potential snag point. In my opinion, I would consider trying it anyways because I'm a bit paranoid of a cord and mini-parachute dragging behind me when my reserve is going to come out and take that same path. If it were to get slightly tangled, it would get very ugly very quick. Re-read what you just posted. Is it me or are you saying it stupid to do this but I am going to do it just the same?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #6 August 28, 2006 I had a premature at opening at 12,500 on time. The pilot chute was tangled up in the steering lines on the right and it was spinning pretty well. I got the spin stop with full left brake, but would occasionally bust a spin anyway. I decided to stay with it to 2000, then chop, because I wasn't too far from jungle and ocean. Happy ending was it all cleared around 8000 feet. Ahhhhh! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #7 August 28, 2006 QuoteYour hand is in the general vicinity of the lines coming out once you pull the pin. Not to mention the nasty gash, or line burns if you got lucky and didn't get tangled. Imagine one wraps around your wrist, not good. Your hand becomes a potential snag point. In my opinion, I would consider trying it anyways because I'm a bit paranoid of a cord and mini-parachute dragging behind me when my reserve is going to come out and take that same path. If it were to get slightly tangled, it would get very ugly very quick. Lordy, I wish I had an easy-to-get photo of a guy that was hit with line burn in a marginally similar situation. He was out of the air for nearly 2 months because of the rash, cuts, burns, blisters, and exceptionally sore muscles that came along with being hit hard with lines. He was only *hit* with the microlines. I don't want to imagine what might have happened had his hand become entangled too. Do you think you could clear a mal that might tie up one hand? And then cut away with that hand potentially entangled? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KenGoff 0 #8 August 28, 2006 Quote Do you think you could clear a mal that might tie up one hand? And then cut away with that hand potentially entangled? No I don't. Just wanted to make sure I understood the reason not to do it. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #9 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuote Do you think you could clear a mal that might tie up one hand? And then cut away with that hand potentially entangled? No I don't. Just wanted to make sure I understood the reason not to do it. Thanks. Ken, my response was more directed towards Chris-Ottowa who indicated he's likely to "give it a try anyway..." Scary stuff, IMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #10 August 28, 2006 Hey Sparky, Yes I know what I wrote. I explained why it's not recommended, but then I also replied with what I would do in that scenario. If it was a 3k H+P, I would cut and pull reserve without thought. But given 10k and lots of time, "I" personally would try to release it. Maybe that would be the wrong thing to do, but I potentially have a good parachute stuck behind a pin. If I can prevent a reserve ride and having to go to my last chance, I think I would in this scenario. I prefer to find out about mals and the best recovery from them before they happen so I'll be prepared. I'm not saying I would fight with it, I just said I would try and if it was stuck, my reserve would come out. I just think it's risky to be towing something when my reserve comes out. If you jumped and found out you didn't have a cocked pilot chute, you know that you potentially have a good main to use. Simply the pin is not being pulled, you would pull your reserve anyways? I'm open to advice, that's why I started this thread. I wanted to know "What would you do" in certain scenarios."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 8 #11 August 28, 2006 First I have to say that this is one of the most intelligent questions I've heard from a new jumper in YEARS! When you have a malfunction it's best to do what you were trained to do and chop it. I had a streamer at 12,000 doing a sunset H&P and waited for the same reasons. Saving the canopy and thinking I had plenty of time to deal with it. When the main DID open it about knocked me out. It was like a gun going off in my head. I'm really surprised that it didn't blow up. I couldn't jump for a month and who knows how much stress that put on every part of my canopy and lines. Not to mention the pain I suffered on that long ride to the ground. In retrospect I should have chopped it immediately and try to follow it down under reserve. It sure would have been less painfull. What if it had knocked me out? Broke my back? Neck? Not worth the price of a canopy in my humble opinion.... I used to know a lady who had very bad velcro on her cutaway pud. I told her about it and she laughed at me because she was a "sky god" and didn't need my opinion. On the very next jump she was filming for a free flyer and exited in a sit position. Her pilot chute came our of her badly worn out legstrap pocket and went right up past her cutaway pud. (this is all on film by the way) The bridal took the cutaway pud with it resulting in immediate chop of the main as it inflated at 12,000ft. Now shes in freefall with one parachute left... What to do? I would dump the reserve right away just in case I need to screw with THAT. Like say a line over or something. After all, why wait till you have no time left and who knows for sure that the reserve is going to work properly.... As for your particular problem, I would do a couple of things. First wait till you hit terminal. Then if nothing happens dip a shoulder or go head down in order to inflate that PC. At that altitude you do have the time to mess with that type of situation. If after all the things I said you still have a PCIT, pull the cutaway pud and dump the reserve. Oviously the main ain't commin out for what ever reason... The problem with having different ways of dealing with malfunctions at different altitudes is that you may not react properly at a lower more dangerous altitude if you have to think about different ways of fixing the problem. Your emergency procedures will work better if they are automatic and you don't have to think. Time is precious when low and sometimes you don't really have time to think but you do have time to react. Practice emergency procedures as much as you can. Anywhere you can. Any time you can. Propose a different malfunction to yourself on each ride up and imagine yourself dealing with it... Then go on to thinking about your dive... Happy Landings and keep asking questions. You will have a good chance of surviving the sport that way.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #12 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuote Never try to manually extract you pin by reaching back seems to be the opinion of most instructors that I know. . Why? Force necessary to initiate main deployment is much smaller than the force applied by the PC. Force required for the main is, oh say in the area of 14 pounds and the PC supplies around 85/90 pounds. If 85 pounds wont get the pin extracted it is very unlikely that an individual reaching around their back will be able to apply the additional force necessary to initiate the main canopy deployment, even for the Terminator. Another thing to consider is a PCIT is usually a misrouting of the bridle and the rigs I have seen after a PCIT recovery could be picked up and shaken from an individual while standing on the ground, even pulling with all their might using both feet as leverage and still could not get the pin extracted. PCIT is a high speed malfunction and while you are sitting there tugging, with adrenaline pouring out of your ears it would be really easy to loose track of altitude. It would suck to pound in just as you are getting line stretch on the reserve, but then there is only an instant to feel like a dumb-ass before it is over so I guess there is a silver lining in every cloud. BLAME: The PCIT is a packing error, but to have one occur is not really the fault of the packer but is the jumpers responsibility to notice the packing error and should be caught during a through gear check prior to dawning the rig. In the event that it is missed by the jumper during the initial gear check, then if the jumper is smart enough to receive a JMPI (gear check) from a fellow skydiver before jumping it could be noticed at that point. PCIT’s that I have been around have been individuals that don’t need (receive) gear checks from peer’s prior to jumping which is just downright, ummmm, counterproductive to getting to have a nice dinner that evening. Hard to eat if one is corpse’d up… This is not a dissertation at how to handle the PCIT; there are different schools of thought that have been discussed and debated in these forums ad nauseam, so you can do a search for that one. If you want my opinion as to how to properly handle this malfunction PM me. Hope this answers your question as to why...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #13 August 28, 2006 Okay, so lets discuss a few nuisances of reacting to the (suspected) PCIT that I have seen posted here: Quote I'm a bit paranoid of a cord and mini-parachute dragging behind me when my reserve is going to come out and take that same path. Well understood to be concerned, but it may be helpful for your understanding to read the PIA study and watch BreakAway video which is based on the findings of that, which was proven in practical demonstrations. There is a higher probability that the reserve will clear the PCIT and not entangle which is in contrast to the opinion of one of the most respected instructors I had the great opportunity to study under (Don Yahrling). Don believed that there was a great potential that the entanglement would/could occur based on previous fatalities that had taken place. A flat and stable body position will better ensure that the reserve will clear the PCIT, this has been proven through practical demonstrations - The unknown variable I suspect is the body position of the dead skydiver at deployment time of the reserve which without video, no one could possibly know the answer to. So as much as I respected the knowledge an opinions of my good friend Don, I am inclined to disagree with his opinion on this issue. Quote When you have a malfunction it's best to do what you were trained to do Great Advice! Quote go head down in order to inflate that PC. At that altitude you do have the time to mess with that type of situation. I would not attempt this as it increases the opportunity for the bridle to entangle on a lower extremity. Even at high altitudes when dealing with a high speed high stress situation even the coolest customers can experience temporal distortion and loose track of altitude. Quote a PCIT, pull the cutaway pud and dump the reserve. Not gonna go there, this is a hotly debated issue and skydivers have died using both methods. The SIM suggests that every skydiver have a pre-planned course of action for the PCIT (after consulting with a rated instructor). Sorry is I have been unclear at any point; it is difficult to concentrate because sitting is very painful for me (only days away from back surgery). Hope this is helpful…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #14 August 28, 2006 Hey Mykel, I agree with everything you said, except for the fact that this is a packing error. I disagree with that because this only happens at subterminal and I've packed and routed my bridle exactly the same every single time I've packed. This happened to me once before on a H+P from 4500 but it only lasted 3 seconds. Both times I've looked back and seen the pilot chute at full extension, not in my burble. To me it would seem as though my closing loop was too tight. Needless to say, I spoke with my rigger on the ground after this happened. He checked out my gear on the spot and said it was all great. Then, I packed and asked him to check my routing and pin tension etc. Again, he said it was great. The only thing they can attribute it to is the fact that I fall very slow, and if I deploiy on a H+P, it needs that extra big of speed to really grab. This never happens on a terminal jump. (Mind you it's only been 6 jumps on this rig and 2 have been PCIT's) I'm gonna be pulling higher than normal on the next few jumps as I'm a bit paranoid now. It's a weird feeling having a PCIT, on the first one, I watched my bag come out and everything. This one I gave a bit longer and still nothing so I was looking down to make sure I had my handles so I could chop, when it suddenly opened. Thanks for the advice so far!"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #15 August 28, 2006 Quote I agree with everything you said, except for the fact that this is a packing error. I disagree with that because this only happens at subterminal and I've packed and routed my bridle exactly the same every single time I've packed. Point of clarification: The PCIT is a packing error. What you have experienced is a hesitation that was the result of the sub-terminal deployment. I have experienced this many times doing sub terminals from a safe (ergo way up there) altitude. It is important to understand the difference so action is not taken in reaction to a PCIT when a hesitation is the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #16 August 28, 2006 Ok, that's better, heh. My fault for saying PCIT, it should have said Pilt chute hesitation. Thanks I DO agree that a PCIT is a packing error, if it is misrouted and does not work it's way out. Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 8 #17 August 28, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- go head down in order to inflate that PC. At that altitude you do have the time to mess with that type of situation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would not attempt this as it increases the opportunity for the bridle to entangle on a lower extremity. Even at high altitudes when dealing with a high speed high stress situation even the coolest customers can experience temporal distortion and loose track of altitude. Agreed... After thinking about it your answer makes perfect sense... Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a PCIT, pull the cutaway pud and dump the reserve. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not gonna go there, this is a hotly debated issue and skydivers have died using both methods. The SIM suggests that every skydiver have a pre-planned course of action for the PCIT (after consulting with a rated instructor). Are you talking about the cutting away part? I guess that is one that has to be determined for each individual. I've had two good canopies out at the same time and that's not a lot of fun but it's better than two that are wrapped.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #18 August 28, 2006 The reason I started this thread is because when I had this mal/incident on Saturday, one of the other guys at the DZ told me a story about his PCIT. He had a PCIT, and it wasn't coming out so he chopped and deployed the reserve. The reserve caused the main to come out at the same time and he wasn't sure if it was because the jolt or harness shift or what, but it did. Once under his reserve he followed his main and landed with it only to find the bridle of the PC knotted around the reserve freebag. Not what you want to see. That scared the crap out of me!"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AFFI 0 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteMy fault for saying PCIT, it should have said Pilt chute hesitation. What is formally known as a “Pilot chute Hesitation” is where the PC is caught in the burble. I have never considered what this type of hesitation (sub-terminal) is called and am quite curious is a name for this situation has been coined throughout the ages of skydiving. Anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #20 August 28, 2006 Just thought I'd also add why I was considering saving my main. Guess where it would have ended up? The second picture shows where the DZ is (See the big triangle, it's in the middle of the right-most runway)"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quinny 0 #21 August 29, 2006 Is yours a bungee pilot chute?If not have you been cocking it properly? How many h/p have you done on your new gear?Quinny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #22 August 29, 2006 QuoteJust thought I'd also add why I was considering saving my main. That’s a habit you should not get into. When things go wrong on a skydive the only thing you want to think about saving is your own ass. You start worrying about your gear and they will bury you with it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #23 August 29, 2006 QuoteIs yours a bungee pilot chute? I have a bungee pilot chute on both my rigs and they work doing H&P from 2000 feet out of a Wilga. On jump run it flies at about 50 mph. Like anything else, it must be designed right and maintained.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #24 August 29, 2006 Hey Quinny, It is not a bungee, it's just a collapsible. I am cocking it correctly as I had my rigger check it out and everything. I've done 3 H+P's, 2 have had PCIT's. It's got me concerned."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #25 August 29, 2006 Hey Sparky, The only reason I considered this is because I had the time. Even if I did consider saving it, I wouldn't have held on to it down to 3k or whatever. I'd chop and dump my reserve by about 4 or 5k. As it was happening I wasn't worried, I was simply yelling, Oh no, not again, dammnit. Then it came out. Like I said earlier, if it was a low H+P, none of this would have crossed my mind and it would have been gone. Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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DSE 5 #7 August 28, 2006 QuoteYour hand is in the general vicinity of the lines coming out once you pull the pin. Not to mention the nasty gash, or line burns if you got lucky and didn't get tangled. Imagine one wraps around your wrist, not good. Your hand becomes a potential snag point. In my opinion, I would consider trying it anyways because I'm a bit paranoid of a cord and mini-parachute dragging behind me when my reserve is going to come out and take that same path. If it were to get slightly tangled, it would get very ugly very quick. Lordy, I wish I had an easy-to-get photo of a guy that was hit with line burn in a marginally similar situation. He was out of the air for nearly 2 months because of the rash, cuts, burns, blisters, and exceptionally sore muscles that came along with being hit hard with lines. He was only *hit* with the microlines. I don't want to imagine what might have happened had his hand become entangled too. Do you think you could clear a mal that might tie up one hand? And then cut away with that hand potentially entangled? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KenGoff 0 #8 August 28, 2006 Quote Do you think you could clear a mal that might tie up one hand? And then cut away with that hand potentially entangled? No I don't. Just wanted to make sure I understood the reason not to do it. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #9 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuote Do you think you could clear a mal that might tie up one hand? And then cut away with that hand potentially entangled? No I don't. Just wanted to make sure I understood the reason not to do it. Thanks. Ken, my response was more directed towards Chris-Ottowa who indicated he's likely to "give it a try anyway..." Scary stuff, IMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #10 August 28, 2006 Hey Sparky, Yes I know what I wrote. I explained why it's not recommended, but then I also replied with what I would do in that scenario. If it was a 3k H+P, I would cut and pull reserve without thought. But given 10k and lots of time, "I" personally would try to release it. Maybe that would be the wrong thing to do, but I potentially have a good parachute stuck behind a pin. If I can prevent a reserve ride and having to go to my last chance, I think I would in this scenario. I prefer to find out about mals and the best recovery from them before they happen so I'll be prepared. I'm not saying I would fight with it, I just said I would try and if it was stuck, my reserve would come out. I just think it's risky to be towing something when my reserve comes out. If you jumped and found out you didn't have a cocked pilot chute, you know that you potentially have a good main to use. Simply the pin is not being pulled, you would pull your reserve anyways? I'm open to advice, that's why I started this thread. I wanted to know "What would you do" in certain scenarios."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 8 #11 August 28, 2006 First I have to say that this is one of the most intelligent questions I've heard from a new jumper in YEARS! When you have a malfunction it's best to do what you were trained to do and chop it. I had a streamer at 12,000 doing a sunset H&P and waited for the same reasons. Saving the canopy and thinking I had plenty of time to deal with it. When the main DID open it about knocked me out. It was like a gun going off in my head. I'm really surprised that it didn't blow up. I couldn't jump for a month and who knows how much stress that put on every part of my canopy and lines. Not to mention the pain I suffered on that long ride to the ground. In retrospect I should have chopped it immediately and try to follow it down under reserve. It sure would have been less painfull. What if it had knocked me out? Broke my back? Neck? Not worth the price of a canopy in my humble opinion.... I used to know a lady who had very bad velcro on her cutaway pud. I told her about it and she laughed at me because she was a "sky god" and didn't need my opinion. On the very next jump she was filming for a free flyer and exited in a sit position. Her pilot chute came our of her badly worn out legstrap pocket and went right up past her cutaway pud. (this is all on film by the way) The bridal took the cutaway pud with it resulting in immediate chop of the main as it inflated at 12,000ft. Now shes in freefall with one parachute left... What to do? I would dump the reserve right away just in case I need to screw with THAT. Like say a line over or something. After all, why wait till you have no time left and who knows for sure that the reserve is going to work properly.... As for your particular problem, I would do a couple of things. First wait till you hit terminal. Then if nothing happens dip a shoulder or go head down in order to inflate that PC. At that altitude you do have the time to mess with that type of situation. If after all the things I said you still have a PCIT, pull the cutaway pud and dump the reserve. Oviously the main ain't commin out for what ever reason... The problem with having different ways of dealing with malfunctions at different altitudes is that you may not react properly at a lower more dangerous altitude if you have to think about different ways of fixing the problem. Your emergency procedures will work better if they are automatic and you don't have to think. Time is precious when low and sometimes you don't really have time to think but you do have time to react. Practice emergency procedures as much as you can. Anywhere you can. Any time you can. Propose a different malfunction to yourself on each ride up and imagine yourself dealing with it... Then go on to thinking about your dive... Happy Landings and keep asking questions. You will have a good chance of surviving the sport that way.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #12 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuote Never try to manually extract you pin by reaching back seems to be the opinion of most instructors that I know. . Why? Force necessary to initiate main deployment is much smaller than the force applied by the PC. Force required for the main is, oh say in the area of 14 pounds and the PC supplies around 85/90 pounds. If 85 pounds wont get the pin extracted it is very unlikely that an individual reaching around their back will be able to apply the additional force necessary to initiate the main canopy deployment, even for the Terminator. Another thing to consider is a PCIT is usually a misrouting of the bridle and the rigs I have seen after a PCIT recovery could be picked up and shaken from an individual while standing on the ground, even pulling with all their might using both feet as leverage and still could not get the pin extracted. PCIT is a high speed malfunction and while you are sitting there tugging, with adrenaline pouring out of your ears it would be really easy to loose track of altitude. It would suck to pound in just as you are getting line stretch on the reserve, but then there is only an instant to feel like a dumb-ass before it is over so I guess there is a silver lining in every cloud. BLAME: The PCIT is a packing error, but to have one occur is not really the fault of the packer but is the jumpers responsibility to notice the packing error and should be caught during a through gear check prior to dawning the rig. In the event that it is missed by the jumper during the initial gear check, then if the jumper is smart enough to receive a JMPI (gear check) from a fellow skydiver before jumping it could be noticed at that point. PCIT’s that I have been around have been individuals that don’t need (receive) gear checks from peer’s prior to jumping which is just downright, ummmm, counterproductive to getting to have a nice dinner that evening. Hard to eat if one is corpse’d up… This is not a dissertation at how to handle the PCIT; there are different schools of thought that have been discussed and debated in these forums ad nauseam, so you can do a search for that one. If you want my opinion as to how to properly handle this malfunction PM me. Hope this answers your question as to why...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #13 August 28, 2006 Okay, so lets discuss a few nuisances of reacting to the (suspected) PCIT that I have seen posted here: Quote I'm a bit paranoid of a cord and mini-parachute dragging behind me when my reserve is going to come out and take that same path. Well understood to be concerned, but it may be helpful for your understanding to read the PIA study and watch BreakAway video which is based on the findings of that, which was proven in practical demonstrations. There is a higher probability that the reserve will clear the PCIT and not entangle which is in contrast to the opinion of one of the most respected instructors I had the great opportunity to study under (Don Yahrling). Don believed that there was a great potential that the entanglement would/could occur based on previous fatalities that had taken place. A flat and stable body position will better ensure that the reserve will clear the PCIT, this has been proven through practical demonstrations - The unknown variable I suspect is the body position of the dead skydiver at deployment time of the reserve which without video, no one could possibly know the answer to. So as much as I respected the knowledge an opinions of my good friend Don, I am inclined to disagree with his opinion on this issue. Quote When you have a malfunction it's best to do what you were trained to do Great Advice! Quote go head down in order to inflate that PC. At that altitude you do have the time to mess with that type of situation. I would not attempt this as it increases the opportunity for the bridle to entangle on a lower extremity. Even at high altitudes when dealing with a high speed high stress situation even the coolest customers can experience temporal distortion and loose track of altitude. Quote a PCIT, pull the cutaway pud and dump the reserve. Not gonna go there, this is a hotly debated issue and skydivers have died using both methods. The SIM suggests that every skydiver have a pre-planned course of action for the PCIT (after consulting with a rated instructor). Sorry is I have been unclear at any point; it is difficult to concentrate because sitting is very painful for me (only days away from back surgery). Hope this is helpful…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #14 August 28, 2006 Hey Mykel, I agree with everything you said, except for the fact that this is a packing error. I disagree with that because this only happens at subterminal and I've packed and routed my bridle exactly the same every single time I've packed. This happened to me once before on a H+P from 4500 but it only lasted 3 seconds. Both times I've looked back and seen the pilot chute at full extension, not in my burble. To me it would seem as though my closing loop was too tight. Needless to say, I spoke with my rigger on the ground after this happened. He checked out my gear on the spot and said it was all great. Then, I packed and asked him to check my routing and pin tension etc. Again, he said it was great. The only thing they can attribute it to is the fact that I fall very slow, and if I deploiy on a H+P, it needs that extra big of speed to really grab. This never happens on a terminal jump. (Mind you it's only been 6 jumps on this rig and 2 have been PCIT's) I'm gonna be pulling higher than normal on the next few jumps as I'm a bit paranoid now. It's a weird feeling having a PCIT, on the first one, I watched my bag come out and everything. This one I gave a bit longer and still nothing so I was looking down to make sure I had my handles so I could chop, when it suddenly opened. Thanks for the advice so far!"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #15 August 28, 2006 Quote I agree with everything you said, except for the fact that this is a packing error. I disagree with that because this only happens at subterminal and I've packed and routed my bridle exactly the same every single time I've packed. Point of clarification: The PCIT is a packing error. What you have experienced is a hesitation that was the result of the sub-terminal deployment. I have experienced this many times doing sub terminals from a safe (ergo way up there) altitude. It is important to understand the difference so action is not taken in reaction to a PCIT when a hesitation is the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #16 August 28, 2006 Ok, that's better, heh. My fault for saying PCIT, it should have said Pilt chute hesitation. Thanks I DO agree that a PCIT is a packing error, if it is misrouted and does not work it's way out. Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 8 #17 August 28, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- go head down in order to inflate that PC. At that altitude you do have the time to mess with that type of situation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would not attempt this as it increases the opportunity for the bridle to entangle on a lower extremity. Even at high altitudes when dealing with a high speed high stress situation even the coolest customers can experience temporal distortion and loose track of altitude. Agreed... After thinking about it your answer makes perfect sense... Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a PCIT, pull the cutaway pud and dump the reserve. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not gonna go there, this is a hotly debated issue and skydivers have died using both methods. The SIM suggests that every skydiver have a pre-planned course of action for the PCIT (after consulting with a rated instructor). Are you talking about the cutting away part? I guess that is one that has to be determined for each individual. I've had two good canopies out at the same time and that's not a lot of fun but it's better than two that are wrapped.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #18 August 28, 2006 The reason I started this thread is because when I had this mal/incident on Saturday, one of the other guys at the DZ told me a story about his PCIT. He had a PCIT, and it wasn't coming out so he chopped and deployed the reserve. The reserve caused the main to come out at the same time and he wasn't sure if it was because the jolt or harness shift or what, but it did. Once under his reserve he followed his main and landed with it only to find the bridle of the PC knotted around the reserve freebag. Not what you want to see. That scared the crap out of me!"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteMy fault for saying PCIT, it should have said Pilt chute hesitation. What is formally known as a “Pilot chute Hesitation” is where the PC is caught in the burble. I have never considered what this type of hesitation (sub-terminal) is called and am quite curious is a name for this situation has been coined throughout the ages of skydiving. Anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #20 August 28, 2006 Just thought I'd also add why I was considering saving my main. Guess where it would have ended up? The second picture shows where the DZ is (See the big triangle, it's in the middle of the right-most runway)"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quinny 0 #21 August 29, 2006 Is yours a bungee pilot chute?If not have you been cocking it properly? How many h/p have you done on your new gear?Quinny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #22 August 29, 2006 QuoteJust thought I'd also add why I was considering saving my main. That’s a habit you should not get into. When things go wrong on a skydive the only thing you want to think about saving is your own ass. You start worrying about your gear and they will bury you with it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #23 August 29, 2006 QuoteIs yours a bungee pilot chute? I have a bungee pilot chute on both my rigs and they work doing H&P from 2000 feet out of a Wilga. On jump run it flies at about 50 mph. Like anything else, it must be designed right and maintained.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #24 August 29, 2006 Hey Quinny, It is not a bungee, it's just a collapsible. I am cocking it correctly as I had my rigger check it out and everything. I've done 3 H+P's, 2 have had PCIT's. It's got me concerned."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #25 August 29, 2006 Hey Sparky, The only reason I considered this is because I had the time. Even if I did consider saving it, I wouldn't have held on to it down to 3k or whatever. I'd chop and dump my reserve by about 4 or 5k. As it was happening I wasn't worried, I was simply yelling, Oh no, not again, dammnit. Then it came out. Like I said earlier, if it was a low H+P, none of this would have crossed my mind and it would have been gone. Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
