H.R. 3950 - Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

According to Gallup's data, 87% of people with private insurance and say that the quality of their health care is excellent or good.

How do they feel about cost of their health care?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mike_forsythe 0]

Quote

civilized countries don't require volunteerism for basic needs.

We are not a civilized country? According to whom, YOU? Again, volunteerism is not always required for basic needs. Look at TN, they pride themselves for their volunteerism. Some cultures would rather have and choose a volunteer system.

Quote

I'm rubber, you're glue

I agree with you there, rubber is an excellent word to describe you

Quote

I'm a veteran, how about you? At this point, nothing. If HC gets passed and it's descent with a public option, I will donate blood twice a year - the good stuff: O -

Not a veteran, tried to volunteer but was rejected as a result of a disability so I spent 20 years in the public service. For what it is worth, I think all vets should have quality health care for life. I do question though why you would not help your fellow citizens by donating blood unless you get your way? Seems pretty selfish to me. Why are you punishing your fellow Americans for what your Government may or may not do?

Quote

I believe you have given time and skill, that's great, but it defines the toilet for what it is that you would be required to do this when we are so wealthy and so wasteful with military expenditures.

And I would say it defines what is good in people!

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

We are not a civilized country? According to whom, YOU?

We don't have some form of HC for all, that relegates us to below some 3rd worlds.

Quote

For what it is worth, I think all vets should have quality health care for life.

I think all Americans should.

Quote

I do question though why you would not help your fellow citizens by donating blood unless you get your way?

Get my way? No, to donate blood so some fucking corporation can profit 1000% from it; fuck that. Here, give us your blood so we can deny you care. What kind of idiot would do that?

Quote

Seems pretty selfish to me.

The position of HC for *some* is selfish at the very least is not saddistic.

Quote

Why are you punishing your fellow Americans for what your Government may or may not do?

How am I punishing them, by not giving blood? Why are people with your position punishing people like me? This is not a matter of 99% of the people wanting HC, there are a lot of people in the lower middle / middle pulling for the abolition of HC, so this is and has been a very divided nation at all levels.

Quote

And I would say it defines what is good in people!

Bizzare to me why you wouldn't want to basic form of HC to all.

[mike_forsythe 0]

Quote

We don't have some form of HC for all, that relegates us to below some 3rd worlds

How many worlds are we talking about? I am talking about planet Earth (sorry, had to be said)

Quote

I think all Americans should

On this we both agree, I was just addressing you as a Vet. Also, if we had to implement HC in stages I think the those who serve/served in the military should be at the top.

Quote

Get my way? No, to donate blood so some fucking corporation can profit 1000% from it; fuck that. Here, give us your blood so we can deny you care. What kind of idiot would do that?

We are just viewing it differently, you are looking at how it helps the corporation and I am looking at how it helps the person that needs it.

Quote

Bizarre to me why you wouldn't want to basic form of HC to all.

Except that is not what I was addressing. You were talking about volunteerism and how bad it was that according to you we had to do it because of our bad system and I said that volunteerism shows what is best in us, nothing bizarre about it.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Since I'm an American I don't have HC.

I'm going back to this particular point, because this flies directly in the face of a post you made some time ago:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3330479#3330479

Quote

I have full VA benefits and receive3d an honorable

How can you have full VA benefits and not have health care? Remember, the benefits you earned serving in the Air Force (so you say), with hopefully some pride?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

I'm going back to this particular point, because this flies directly in the face of a post you made some time ago:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3330479#3330479

So your saying due to me being a vet I have benefits? I've never applied to the VA for that, just my VA loan qual years ago. I don't know that they accept everyone and they can deny based upon income, etc. A lifer has comprehensive benefits for life, a 1-termer I don't think does and they can be limited.

And let's take the spotlight offf of me, I want all Americans to have HC regardless of vet status.

Quote

How can you have full VA benefits and not have health care? Remember, the benefits you earned serving in the Air Force (so you say), with hopefully some pride?

So now you doubt my vet status. OMG, as if a 4-year stint in the military is a big accomplishment . If I were gonna lie, I could do better than that.

You must not be a vet, a 1-termer doesn't have the golden slipper for lifetime HC. Again, even if I did, explain how the other non-vets get covered. See, your example illustrates my point that conservatives are just worried about themselves, I want all Americcans to have HC regardless of anything.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

How many worlds are we talking about? I am talking about planet Earth (sorry, had to be said)

Is this Ron? You back peddler you . 3rd worlds = 3rd world countries.

So now address it:

We don't have some form of HC for all, that relegates us to below some 3rd worlds

Quote

On this we both agree, I was just addressing you as a Vet. Also, if we had to implement HC in stages I think the those who serve/served in the military should be at the top.

Maybe war vets, but I don't want to stratify Americans, that causes the division Repubs relish. We're all Americans, let's pull together and not be elitist.

Quote

We are just viewing it differently, you are looking at how it helps the corporation and I am looking at how it helps the person that needs it.

Yep, but many Americans are for this public option HC abolition drive. I'm not gonna sit here and try to ween out the good guys from teh bad, until we get some kind of reasonable HC guaranteed I would never donate. I want to, but I also want to live in a nation that has basic guarantees.

Quote

Except that is not what I was addressing. You were talking about volunteerism and how bad it was that according to you we had to do it because of our bad system and I said that volunteerism shows what is best in us, nothing bizarre about it.

Actually you brought the term in in post 75:

No, I guess you don't know what the word volunteer means, I didn't "have" to do anything, it was a choice to help others. My question is what are you doing to help your country?

What I wrote was this:

I'm not saying you personally have to do a thing, I'm saying in order for more people to get HC then some people need to volunteer, whereas civilized countries don't require volunteerism for basic needs.

By that I mean if people don't volunteer then it won't get done. I'm not advocating that people volunteer, I'm advicating that we not be compelled to volunteer in order to get HC to all. Volunteerism is great, hats off, but the gov s/b compelled to guarantee basic HC to all.

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

According to Gallup's data, 87% of people with private insurance and say that the quality of their health care is excellent or good.

How do they feel about cost of their health care?

And this will make it more affordable how?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

Quote

We don't have some form of HC for all, that relegates us to below some 3rd worlds

Umm...I'm gonna need to see a list of 3rd world countries that have UHC.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Ron 10]

Quote

this Ron? You back peddler you .

This is you taking the high road? Looks like your same old crap to me.

And BTW, you are qualified for VA HC.... You seem to have strong opinions about things you don't seem to know anything about.

Also, I think the fact you are unwilling to donate blood... Something that costs you nothing and only takes a few minutes to do, but expect others to pay more in taxes to support your HC demands is AMAZING.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

We don't have some form of HC for all, that relegates us to below some 3rd worlds

Umm...I'm gonna need to see a list of 3rd world countries that have UHC.

Quote

Quote

We don't have some form of HC for all, that relegates us to below some 3rd worlds

Umm...I'm gonna need to see a list of 3rd world countries that have UHC.

I wrote that, " We don't have some form of HC for all, ..." I didn't state that explicitly we don't or 3rd world countries do have universal healthcare. But I will research to see which countries have HC of some sort.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

It's actually difficult to find a list of 3rd world countries, period. It's an ambiguous term and people draw the line at diff places. So here is how they also break categories down as well:

Below Third World Countries by various categories:

- Third World Countries in terms of Political Rights and Civil Liberties.

- Third World Countries in terms of their Gross National Income (GNI)

- Third World Countries in Terms of their Human Development

- Third World Countries in Terms of Poverty

- Third World Countries in Terms of Press Freedom


So if I go thru and compile all the 3rd world countries I have this:

Burma (Myanmar)

Cuba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba The Cuban government operates a national health system and assumes fiscal and administrative responsibility for the health care of all its citizens.[1] No private hospitals or clinics are permitted.[citation needed] The present Minister for Public Health is José Ramón Balaguer.

Libya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Libya Basic health care is provided to all citizens. Health, training, rehabilitation, education, housing, family issues, and disability and old-age benefits are all regulated by “Decision No. 111” (dated December 9, 1999) of the General People’s Committee on the Promulgation of the By-Law Enforcement Law No. 20 of 1998 on the Social Care Fund. The health care system is not purely state-run but rather a mixed system of public and private care.

North Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#Health_care North Korea has a national medical service and health insurance system.

Somalia

Sudan

Turkmenistan

Uzbekistan

Chechnya (Russia)

Tibet

Belarus

China

Cote d’Ivoire

Equatorial Guinea

Eritrea

Laos

Saudi Arabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Saudi_Arabia The healthcare system in Saudi Arabia can be classified as a national health care system in which the government provides health care services through a number of government agencies. In the meantime, there is a growing role and increased participation from the private sector in the provision of health care services.

Syria

Zimbabwe

Timor-Leste

Malawi

Somalia

Democratic Republic of the Congo

Tanzania

Yemen

Burundi

Afghanistan

Guinea-Bissau

Ethiopia

Niger

Liberia

Sierra Leone

Madagascar

Zambia

Eritrea

Senegal

Rwanda

Guinea

Benin

Tanzania

Angola

Chad

Central African Rep.

Ethiopia

Mozambique

Guinea-Bissau

Burundi

Mali

Burkina Faso

Sierra Leone


There may be duplicates in the list. Also, I didn't include 3rd world countries by way of media suppression, that wasn't in the reasonable criteria.
Here's a good read for what is a 3rd world nation: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/General/ThirdWorld_def.html

So I picked a few and posted links. It would take all day to do a comprehensive, detailed list and analysis, but I showed how even very broke, destitute countries provide SOME FORM of HC for all, even with limited resource; that was my point.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

This is you taking the high road? Looks like your same old crap to me.

I didn't extend it to you but I would like that. Just address issues and no pettiness.

Quote

And BTW, you are qualified for VA HC.... You seem to have strong opinions about things you don't seem to know anything about.

1) I believe it's income-based, altho that wouldn't be a problem now, it could be.

2) As well, I'm not a selfish American, I truly want HC for all Americans.

Quote

Also, I think the fact you are unwilling to donate blood... Something that costs you nothing and only takes a few minutes to do, but expect others to pay more in taxes to support your HC demands is AMAZING.

I expect the rich to pay more in taxes, but I don;t care if they tack a few 100 billion onto the debt to provide basic HC for all. Also, as I said, I would donate twice a year if we go to a comprehensive HC plan; I think it s/b compulsory for all who receive HC plan benefits. Of course I think military service s/b too, but the elitist rich would never go for that. I'm for more compulsory involvement into government by all, rather than selfish regard for one's own wants.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

I'm going back to this particular point, because this flies directly in the face of a post you made some time ago:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3330479#3330479

So your saying due to me being a vet I have benefits? I've never applied to the VA for that, just my VA loan qual years ago. I don't know that they accept everyone and they can deny based upon income, etc. A lifer has comprehensive benefits for life, a 1-termer I don't think does and they can be limited.

And let's take the spotlight offf of me, I want all Americans to have HC regardless of vet status.

Quote

How can you have full VA benefits and not have health care? Remember, the benefits you earned serving in the Air Force (so you say), with hopefully some pride?

So now you doubt my vet status. OMG, as if a 4-year stint in the military is a big accomplishment . If I were gonna lie, I could do better than that.

You must not be a vet, a 1-termer doesn't have the golden slipper for lifetime HC. Again, even if I did, explain how the other non-vets get covered. See, your example illustrates my point that conservatives are just worried about themselves, I want all Americcans to have HC regardless of anything.

So, now you don't have "full VA benefits"? Is that what you're saying? I wasn't the only vet on here calling you out at that time. I am not doing so now, because how you carry yourself is not my concern. You did say however, "I have full VA benefits".

Now I will ask, what Group are you in the VA? You know that the moratorium for Group * vets has been lifted. So, how can you not have coverage, if not by choice?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

And this will make it more affordable how?

Yes, likely. At least hopefully insurance costs won't increase 15% a year as they are now.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

And this will make it more affordable how?

Yes, likely. At least hopefully insurance costs won't increase 15% a year as they are now.

I'll repeat it again. How will this make it more affordable? I see you using the word 'hopefully'. Election's over...you're guy won...are we still operating on 'hope'?

Edited to add: I've had some thanksgiving cheer. Forgive my snarkiness.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

I'll repeat it again. How will this make it more affordable?

- by cutting down the number of people who go to ER and do not pay, therefore having someone else (you and me) paying for it through increased premiums;

- by increasing the insurance pool by requiring people to buy insurance;

- by increasing the competition, allowing buying insurance across state borders and removing anti-trust exemption from insurance companies. Also the companies will have to compete with the government plan, meaning that they will have to provide either better service or better price.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

I'll repeat it again. How will this make it more affordable?

- by cutting down the number of people who go to ER and do not pay, therefore having someone else (you and me) paying for it through increased premiums;

Quote

But there's the rub. I can choose whether I want to pay those premiums can't I? Not anymore.

Somebody said the cost is $2 Billion per year for people who abuse the ER. $2 Billion? Our government shits $2 Billion daily.

- by increasing the insurance pool by requiring people to buy insurance;

Quote

Anytime I hear 'require' in the same sentence as I hear insurance I think something's up

- by increasing the competition, allowing buying insurance across state borders and removing anti-trust exemption from insurance companies. Also the companies will have to compete with the government plan, meaning that they will have to provide either better service or better price.

What other successful businesses compete with the government? None. You can't win when you are competing against yourself. BTW...is that what's in this bill? Certainly one wouldn't need 2,074 pages to fix those problems.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,230]

Quote

Quote

And this will make it more affordable how?

Yes, likely. At least hopefully insurance costs won't increase 15% a year as they are now.

I must be fortunate, mine only increased 12%.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,230]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I'll repeat it again. How will this make it more affordable?

- by cutting down the number of people who go to ER and do not pay, therefore having someone else (you and me) paying for it through increased premiums;

Quote

But there's the rub. I can choose whether I want to pay those premiums can't I? Not anymore.

Somebody said the cost is $2 Billion per year for people who abuse the ER. $2 Billion? Our government shits $2 Billion daily.

- by increasing the insurance pool by requiring people to buy insurance;

Quote

Anytime I hear 'require' in the same sentence as I hear insurance I think something's up

- by increasing the competition, allowing buying insurance across state borders and removing anti-trust exemption from insurance companies. Also the companies will have to compete with the government plan, meaning that they will have to provide either better service or better price.

What other successful businesses compete with the government? None. .

Harvard University is very successful. So are Yale, Princeton, Cornell, U of Chicago, Northwestern U, and hundreds of other private schools and colleges.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

But there's the rub. I can choose whether I want to pay those premiums can't I? Not anymore.

The problem comes exactly from the fact that some people do not want pay those premiums. They they got sick or go into accident, get the treatment and do not pay for it (or offer ridiculous terms like paying $20 a month). If you have other ideas how would we prevent people from getting medical service and not paying for it, I'd like to hear it.

Quote

Somebody said the cost is $2 Billion per year for people who abuse the ER. $2 Billion? Our government shits $2 Billion daily.

If you make claims based on numbers, it would sound more reliable if your source is more reliable than just "somebody says".

Quote

Anytime I hear 'require' in the same sentence as I hear insurance I think something's up

Apparently the problem here is that "personal responsibility" thing just does not work. Even here when recently discussing about skydiving without health insurance (and the sport is expensive, so the people obviously have enough money to get at least some insurance), and some people still said it's fine to do so. There is likely the main reason liability insurance is mandatory virtually everywhere - because if it is not, some people would say that they have other spending priorities, like buying a new TV. The funny thing is that responsibility is a personal trait, and the one who does not show responsibility in terms of getting insurance would likely to not show it while driving, therefore getting a higher chance to get into accident.

Quote

What other successful businesses compete with the government? None.

What about UPS/FedEx?
What about private schools?
What about Stanford University?

Quote

Certainly one wouldn't need 2,074 pages to fix those problems.

By this statement I bet you neither read the bill nor even thought seriously about any possible fix besides generic statements like "tort reform".

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rushmc 23]

You posted,

Quote

Apparently the problem here is that "personal responsibility" thing just does not work. Even here when recently discussing about skydiving without health insurance (and the sport is expensive, so the people obviously have enough money to get at least some insurance), and some people still said it's fine to do so. There is likely the main reason liability insurance is mandatory virtually everywhere - because if it is not, some people would say that they have other spending priorities, like buying a new TV. The funny thing is that responsibility is a personal trait, and the one who does not show responsibility in terms of getting insurance would likely to not show it while driving, therefore getting a higher chance to get into accident.

I admit I had to read this about 3 times to make sure I understand you correctly but I want to make sure.

So, stated another way, because some people are not responcible, you think gov should take this over for all of us?

( I should have said "punished" all of us but I will leave it as I did for debates sake)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[airdvr 210]

USPS is not the federal government. Sure it gets around 96 million from the feds annually but turns a profit of about 1 billion.

Love it when you guys say private schools compete with state schools. The top 10 have tuition and fees of nearly $40K per year. Some more than that. Without grants and scholarships, many which are paid by the government, not many of the average folks in this country would be able to afford $160K for a degree.

I haven't read the bill. I haven't read War and Peace either. Experience tells me that a 2,074 page piece of legislation contains a ton of regulations I don't think we need.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

And this will make it more affordable how?

Yes, likely. At least hopefully insurance costs won't increase 15% a year as they are now.

I must be fortunate, mine only increased 12%.

Mine didn't go up at all, I must be really fortunate ... of course the coverage sucks; none.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

So, now you don't have "full VA benefits"? Is that what you're saying? I wasn't the only vet on here calling you out at that time. I am not doing so now, because how you carry yourself is not my concern. You did say however, "I have full VA benefits".

Yes, for a 1-term vet I have full vet benefots. Not as a lifer. I'm not sure what I can get with teh VA as a 1-term vet, but I think it's sketchy, they don't cover everything and if you make toomuch they cut you. I briefly checked it once. With all the cuts, they're even talking about limiting or taxing/charging lifers for their medical.

Quote

Now I will ask, what Group are you in the VA? You know that the moratorium for Group * vets has been lifted. So, how can you not have coverage, if not by choice?

I think I heard there was a moratorium, probably under that humanitarian GHWB, but no, I haven't checked it. Again, this HC isn't about me, it's the nation. As well, they could limit or exclude 1-termers anyway, so to hang my hat on vet HC is not wise. This problem needs to be fixed regardless of me, unless a person is a Republican and feels having a military 8 times that of #2 and being the most indebted nation in the world because of it is more important.

[Ron 10]

Quote

I didn't extend it to you but I would like that. Just address issues and no pettiness.

Then maybe YOU should be the one to start?

Quote

1) I believe it's income-based, altho that wouldn't be a problem now, it could be.

Wrong.... Again, you seem to not not a bunch about something you have strong opinions on. *IF* your income is above a threshold they ask that you pay a co-pay.

Quote

2) As well, I'm not a selfish American, I truly want HC for all Americans.

And I am not a selfish American either. But, I see the proposed "fixes" causing more harm than they "fix". Going blindly into debt with no hope of the program being self sufficient is putting yet another another nail in the coffin so to speak.

You have not touched on the subject of the French system adding to the deficit for 20+ years and the French adding co-pays, cutting services, closing facilities...ect.

Quote

but I don;t care if they tack a few 100 billion onto the debt to provide basic HC for all.

This shows lack of fiscal sense. This is like the poor guy thinking it is OK to run up a credit card because he can get the new toys he wants now. This is not a healthy method for a person nor a Country. You only seem to dislike the deficit when it helps you to waive it in front of people.... Yet you ignore it when you realize it will hurt your position. Why?

Quote

Also, as I said, I would donate twice a year if we go to a comprehensive HC plan

So you are unwilling to help the people it will help, unless you have your way first?

Quote

I'm for more compulsory involvement into government by all

And I want LESS involvement in people's lives by the Govt. I want a smaller Govt, I want a Govt that runs a balanced budget so it will remain strong and not indebted to other Country's.

Quote

I think it s/b compulsory for all who receive HC plan benefits. Of course I think military service s/b too, but the elitist rich would never go for that.

The liberals will never go for that either... and you know it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334