H.R. 3950 - Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

[mnealtx 0]

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Like the US, which has life expectancies more in line with some 3rd world countries than with Europe.

Too bad that life expectancy is much more strongly influenced by lifestyle choices and diet instead of medical care - was a great soundbite, otherwise.

The usual lame excuse of the right whenever their favored policies produce shittier outcomes. You make the same LAME excuse over US gun homicide rates ("whine whine it's the culture whine whine").

And YOU make the same LAME excuse over gun crime ("whine whine whine it's the Virginia guns causing DC crime whine whine"). Lame.

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Health care != medical care. Healthcare INCLUDES diet and lifestyle choices.

Bullshit. Doctors RECOMMEND diet / lifestyle choices, unless there's some sort of "Medical Directive Compliance Team" going around forcing people to eat right, exercise and stop smoking that I haven't heard of.

Try coming up with something that actually SOUNDS feasible next time, will you?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,230]

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Like the US, which has life expectancies more in line with some 3rd world countries than with Europe.

Too bad that life expectancy is much more strongly influenced by lifestyle choices and diet instead of medical care - was a great soundbite, otherwise.

The usual lame excuse of the right whenever their favored policies produce shittier outcomes. You make the same LAME excuse over US gun homicide rates ("whine whine it's the culture whine whine").

And YOU make the same LAME excuse over gun crime ("whine whine whine it's the Virginia guns causing DC crime whine whine"). Lame.

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Health care != medical care. Healthcare INCLUDES diet and lifestyle choices.

Bullshit. Doctors RECOMMEND diet / lifestyle choices, unless there's some sort of "Medical Directive Compliance Team" going around forcing people to eat right, exercise and stop smoking that I haven't heard of.

Try coming up with something that actually SOUNDS feasible next time, will you?

Tough that the policies you favor, whether health, gun or economic, produce such poor outcomes that you have to find lame excuses. Just tough.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Like the US, which has life expectancies more in line with some 3rd world countries than with Europe.

Too bad that life expectancy is much more strongly influenced by lifestyle choices and diet instead of medical care - was a great soundbite, otherwise.

The usual lame excuse of the right whenever their favored policies produce shittier outcomes. You make the same LAME excuse over US gun homicide rates ("whine whine it's the culture whine whine").

And YOU make the same LAME excuse over gun crime ("whine whine whine it's the Virginia guns causing DC crime whine whine"). Lame.

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Health care != medical care. Healthcare INCLUDES diet and lifestyle choices.

Bullshit. Doctors RECOMMEND diet / lifestyle choices, unless there's some sort of "Medical Directive Compliance Team" going around forcing people to eat right, exercise and stop smoking that I haven't heard of.

Try coming up with something that actually SOUNDS feasible next time, will you?

Tough that the policies you favor, whether health, gun or economic, produce such poor outcomes that you have to find lame excuses. Just tough.

Speaking of lame excuses...what's the matter, John - can't argue your point?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

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Like the US, which has life expectancies more in line with some 3rd world countries than with Europe.

Too bad that life expectancy is much more strongly influenced by lifestyle choices and diet instead of medical care - was a great soundbite, otherwise.

The usual lame excuse of the right whenever their favored policies produce shittier outcomes. You make the same LAME excuse over US gun homicide rates ("whine whine it's the culture whine whine").

And YOU make the same LAME excuse over gun crime ("whine whine whine it's the Virginia guns causing DC crime whine whine"). Lame.

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Health care != medical care. Healthcare INCLUDES diet and lifestyle choices.

Bullshit. Doctors RECOMMEND diet / lifestyle choices, unless there's some sort of "Medical Directive Compliance Team" going around forcing people to eat right, exercise and stop smoking that I haven't heard of.

Try coming up with something that actually SOUNDS feasible next time, will you?

Tough that the policies you favor, whether health, gun or economic, produce such poor outcomes that you have to find lame excuses. Just tough.

Speaking of lame excuses...what's the matter, John - can't argue your point?

Can you show me a post when he has been able to?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[georgerussia 0]

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1) What I learned in basic economic theory is that when demand for a product goes up, price goes up as well. If we require everyone to pay for insurance, doesn't this give all the leverage to the insurance companies? Where is their incentive to keep prices down?

Bingo! You just explained the reason why public option (and removing antitrust exemption) is necessary - exactly to prevent this kind of scenario. Of course, there are still people here like rushmc, who want your and mine insurance costs to go up so health insurers can packet some real profits, and not those ugly 5% they are getting now - because they think it is "right thing to do", and therefore, like good Christians, they would like to force everyone to "do the right thing".

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2) Can we find another example of forced purchases that aren't car insurance or food? I have problems with both... As mentioned, we aren't born with cars, so liability insurance fails. Not all states charge a tax on non-prepared food, and you can grow your own if you like, so that doesn't seem as applicable...

It would be a "forced purchase" if now the people who chose not to purchase insurance would be turned away from hospitals. The problem here is that there is no law which would require a grocery store to give you food even if you cannot or do not want to pay for it. There is no law either to require a car dealership to give you a car even if you cannot or do not want to pay for it. But a hospital is required to treat you even if you cannot or do not want to pay for it. Obviously someone has to pay for it.

There is no real alternative here. A hypothetical example would be someone signing a waiver saying something like "I refuse to participate in health insurance plan, so if I ever get into ER without cash in hands or bank guarantee, I hereby give the ER permission to end my worthless life and donate the organs" - but this obviously wouldn't fly.

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3) Is mandatory insurance truly better than a more robust public option? As in, a government-run program that exists side by side with private ones. We've had such a system in education for years... Public universities have existed side-by-side with private, and many site our country as the world's best in secondary education.

Correct. It depends on how one defines "better". For some "better" would be cheaper - and they'd choose it. For others "better" would be less rationed - while more expensive, they'd choose it too.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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who want your and mine insurance costs to go up so health insurers can packet some real profits, and not those ugly 5% they are getting now

Too bad CBO has already shown that the Obamacare option is going to cost MORE than private insurance - might have been a good point, otherwise.

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because they think it is "right thing to do", and therefore, like good Christians, they would like to force everyone to "do the right thing".

Like what the Dems are trying to do with the healthcare bill, you mean?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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Too bad CBO has already shown that the Obamacare option is going to cost MORE than private insurance - might have been a good point, otherwise.

Did you read the actual CBO report? I went through it, and while I hardly understood most of the things there, it was pretty clear even to me that there is nothing there saying that "Obamacare option is going to cost MORE than private insurance" - which, in fact, is very vague phrase itself.

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Like what the Dems are trying to do with the healthcare bill, you mean?

Why not? If you think it's ok to force others to do what you consider "the right thing", then you have no stand to complain about anyone else who tries to do the same, and forces you to do what they consider to be "the right thing".

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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Too bad CBO has already shown that the Obamacare option is going to cost MORE than private insurance - might have been a good point, otherwise.

Did you read the actual CBO report? I went through it, and while I hardly understood most of the things there, it was pretty clear even to me that there is nothing there saying that "Obamacare option is going to cost MORE than private insurance" - which, in fact, is very vague phrase itself.

So is "Forcing people to do the right thing"

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Like what the Dems are trying to do with the healthcare bill, you mean?

Why not? If you think it's ok to force others to do what you consider "the right thing", then you have no stand to complain about anyone else who tries to do the same, and forces you to do what they consider to be "the right thing".

So, what are people being ''forced to do" by the Republicans then?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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Did you read the actual CBO report? I went through it, and while I hardly understood most of the things there, it was pretty clear even to me that there is nothing there saying that "Obamacare option is going to cost MORE than private insurance" - which, in fact, is very vague phrase itself.

So is "Forcing people to do the right thing"

I assume this means that you DID NOT read the actual report, and once going through this, did not find any evidence to support your claim, therefore admitting it's false - right?

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So, what are people being ''forced to do" by the Republicans then?

For example, right here some of them tell us that public option should be eliminated, even if it is better for some consumers - because it will cut into profits of the private industry, forcing some of them to shut down. This way they try to force everyone to support private industry, including those people who would do better on a public plan, and therefore do not need private health insurers. Fortunately their powers are very limited now.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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I assume this means that you DID NOT read the actual report,

The one you linked? No. I read one from earlier in the month showing that the Dem option would cost more than the Republican option. My apologies for the confusion.

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So, what are people being ''forced to do" by the Republicans then?

For example, right here some of them tell us that public option should be eliminated, even if it is better for some consumers - because it will cut into profits of the private industry, forcing some of them to shut down. This way they try to force everyone to support private industry, including those people who would do better on a public plan, and therefore do not need private health insurers. Fortunately their powers are very limited now.

That private option thing be the one in your imagination, seeing as how the HC bill doesn't have one, yes?

So now, preferring the status quo over a non-existent option is "forcing people to do the right thing". Nice logic.

Maybe you can explain what choice the people who DON'T support the HC bill have once it gets passed?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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That sounds like you... You want everything such as free to you HC, but don't want to work or pay for it... You want me to pay for your HC.

I'm guessing you're not a millionaire - you won't be paying for anyone; quit pseudo whining, victim. Quit whining about taxes....or leave ....sound famil;iar?

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Imagine how great the US would be if people were willing to work for the things they want instead of expecting others just to give it to them!

Imagine how great the US was and we weren't run / owned by corporations. Imagine if we were normal and had all people with some sort of HC.

[georgerussia 0]

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The one you linked? No. I read one from earlier in the month showing that the Dem option would cost more than the Republican option.

This is obvious - the Dem option provides more, and it will cost more. Republican option didn't impress me at all - this was only partial solution, which did nothing to fix the major issues (pre-existing conditions and unpaid ER visits).

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That private option thing be the one in your imagination, seeing as how the HC bill doesn't have one, yes?

I didn't understand what exactly HC bill does not have? There is "private option" via regular health insurance, as it is now.

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So now, preferring the status quo over a non-existent option is "forcing people to do the right thing". Nice logic.

Yes, because there are people like me or several others right here who do not like status quo, and want it to be changed. Forcing us to keep status quo just because you feel it's better is exactly like that.

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Maybe you can explain what choice the people who DON'T support the HC bill have once it gets passed?

Pretty much the same choice the people who DIDN'T support the Iraq war had once it got passed.

Politics and law is all about forcing others to follow what you consider "the right thing". And all politicians do it, be they Dems or Reps. My whole post was that what Dems are doing is not different from what any politician would do, and not even different from what YOU would like to do. That's the point.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lucky... 0]

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Just a quick background on me to frame my comment.

I believe in health care reform. I believe in universal care. I wish everyone could go to the doctor for free. Basically, this is not a blind attack on a liberal policy for the sake of being argumentative.

I think there are many paths to this destination. I am concerned with walking the path that requires people to pay for insurance. This path sounds like it's littered with alligators and ex-girlfriends... but maybe I'm missing something.

So then what is your fix? I agree, I don't like the req to pay for ins unless there are STRICT controls, cost and otherwise. I mean, this lays the foundation for catastrophe if some redneck POS Republican gets in there and leaves the req to pay and tweeks the corporate -love; it really has catastrophic potential. This is why I'm for Canadian-style HC that also allows teh rich to buy their own.

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1) What I learned in basic economic theory is that when demand for a product goes up, price goes up as well. If we require everyone to pay for insurance, doesn't this give all the leverage to the insurance companies? Where is their incentive to keep prices down?

If demand goes up, supply will follow; the interim should have price controls. Furthermore, the public option will be cheaper and demand the corporate options fall or fall out.

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2) Can we find another example of forced purchases that aren't car insurance or food? I have problems with both... As mentioned, we aren't born with cars, so liability insurance fails. Not all states charge a tax on non-prepared food, and you can grow your own if you like, so that doesn't seem as applicable... If a forced purchase from an insurance company is the best way, then let's do it... I just wish I could see another place where this exists and has proven successful.

The forced participation, I believe, is in reaction to the right for claiming, whining, being dicks about people getting things for free. The left would like to have a single-payer option like Canada. but the right won't budge, so teh best the left can do is a paid public option. If people hate this, rememeber, this is the bastard child of the concerned left meets the grubby, greedy right, so it may have red hair, be fat and smoke.

If there is forced participation, there better be strict controls and a fat indigent area on teh bottom for exclusion, while still getting benefit. It's amazing to watch America kicking and screaming to become normal. All the while, the resistant right cries foul as we try to become normal, they claim it will cost too much, while they virtually own the 12T debt and they claim Capitalism is the best system for all when we are teh largest debtor nation in the world ever, a Communist nation the greatest creditor.

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3) Is mandatory insurance truly better than a more robust public option? As in, a government-run program that exists side by side with private ones. We've had such a system in education for years... Public universities have existed side-by-side with private, and many site our country as the world's best in secondary education.

I totally agree. Leave the private alone, that is what I dislike about Canada's system, the rich can't go buy their own so tehy come here for specialized care or for expediant care. I don't want everyone on the same plane, just a reasonable baseline of care for all. Again, this mess they are creating is a result of the grubbies vs the honorable left trying ot get all HC. The right haven't come up with anything other than buying accross state lines, IOW's, more interaction with corporations or nothing. We are such a divided nation that we will never have a reasonable resolve with our so-called best system in the world.

[mike_forsythe 0]

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Imagine how great the US was and we weren't run / owned by corporations.

No. Tell us how you imagine this country would be if we were not “run/owned by corporations”. Do you think we would be better if we were only run/owned by the government? The reality is that more and more everyday both government and corporations will more tightly run our lives the way THEY want.

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Imagine if we were normal and had all people with some sort of HC.

Since 85% of the population has HC it is by definition the norm or normal. It is not the norm or normal to not have HC………….yes/no?

[Lucky... 0]

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Dude, if you don't know what it is...

I'm not a liar liek so many on the other side. If I don't know, I dunno. As I said, I'm an American, HC is somewhat foreign to me. You make it as a slam to me, but in reality it just exemplifies the garbage I live in that a 47 YO man doesn't know the intricacies of HC.

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A cafeteria plan is a "Flexible Spending Plan". Dollars placed into this plan can be deducted from pay, pre-tax. This allows you to pay for covered expenses without being taxed on the income to pay for it. Many people use this to pay for things like child care, deductibles, etc. It's significant, and my example is on-target, if not a bulls-eye. The middle class doesn't just exist under $50K/year. Take a look around. For the average income in the United States to be hovering over $40K/year...figure it out.

I'm familiar with that plan, just wasn't aware of the name of it.

Figure what out; how wonderful the cafeteria plan is? How wonderful is it for homeless? For the piss-poor who can't divert their income? Etc You figure it out.

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Tax increases under Clinton added two more brackets to the upper income (36%, and 39.6%) earners. This was off-set by a cut in the capital gains tax (and it's what was also used in Congress to balance the budget).

What was used to balance the budget, the tax cut in capital gains? Is that your tired way of saying tax cuts my friends creates more revenue? I think Clinton's entire fiscal plan is what balanced the budget, but I'm entertained by you cherry-picking parts of Clinton's tax policy and making assumptions.

I reached into the toilet and found this: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm1835.cfm

This is what you're saying. So in 1997, after the economy was well within it's prosperity run, the dot.com boom was driving things as were the 1990 and 1993 tax increases paying the deficit down-surplus up, Clinton signs this rag for minimum wage increase as well as other things. It was a deal with teh devils (Republicans). See, in order for your boased, flawed argument to work, you would have to explain away the amazing fiscal reform from Reagan's mess to this tax change - WELL INTO THE CLINTON SUCCESS PERIOD. Youc an't, it was all tax increases in 1990 and 1993. Nice try tho, I was waiting for that in the many fiscal threads I wrote. While you're at it, explain GWB's tax cuts and tehir enormous success. And if you still have the energy, tell us all about fascist Ronnie and his lovely tax cuts and their resulting success.

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President Obama's tax promises have said nothing, nothing, of a tax cut to low earners. You know why? Because low earners end up not paying tax.

I basically agree with that. BTW, those horrible, scrubby, low-life, scurge of the earth garbage of America low income earners are the ones making the rich, rich. So the idea is that money is taxed, not people. Don't like taxes, make very little or nothing - the tax man won't be knocking.

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The example I proposed shows a net loss to "Jack" and his family. Justify that.

We can use you as an example if you want. What's your salary? What, if any benefits do you get from your employer? Throw some bottom line dollars out there, instead of hypothetical "gain for most" because "Obama is trying to cut taxes"...rubbish.

Let's not make this about me. Provide a hypothetical person if you like, I'll play along.

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You cannont implement a Trillion dollar program for nothing.

Your president did, they call it the Iraq/AFG Wars. Let me see how it worked out..... the world hated us, we lost almost 5k great people, killed probably 100's of thousands o inncient civilians over there, and teh grubby American corps made off massively. So yes we can, you just don't like it like you enjoy your mess; OUR TURN.

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The offsets that Sen. Reid put in this bill will not pay for it. You can't possibly believe this will cost as promised?

And I don't. What part of, 'Let's be normal and guarantee every American HC' don't you get? You have to have a solution other than FUCK THE POOR - I DON'T GIVE A GOOD GOD DAMNED ABOUT PEOPLE; IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. You and your's time appears to be up, this will change America.

[Lucky... 0]

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Also, look at the balance sheets of other US Govt social programs... Are Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid running well?

Other than to scrap the entire program and let the elderly rot, what is your solution? No solution, welcome to socialism .

[Lucky... 0]

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Since I'm an American I don't have HC

Well I'm an American and I have great health care. It is affordable, the quality is very good and I have not had any claims or services denied.

I'm glad I don't live in your America.

Where is this America with HC that you speak of? Oh, you live on that side of the tracks. Well, so long as you have HC and all is fine, I say you continue to thumb your nose at those who don't and tell em to fuck off.

[Lucky... 0]

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United States 77.1
United Kingdom 77.7
Finland 77.4
France 78.8
Germany 77.4

Ron.. did Lucky math rub off on you

United States 77.1 < than all the others you list

How is my math incorrect?

[Lucky... 0]

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No. Tell us how you imagine this country would be if we were not “run/owned by corporations”.

That's what I said.

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Do you think we would be better if we were only run/owned by the government? The reality is that more and more everyday both government and corporations will more tightly run our lives the way THEY want.

How about a little of each. It seems regimes only work in 1 mode. The paranoia used to be of the ellusive gov, since fascist pig Ronnie it's the corporate monster.

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Since 85% of the population has HC it is by definition the norm or normal. It is not the norm or normal to not have HC………….yes/no?

Yes, normal within the bastard we call the USA. Using a world scale it is not normal, even in some 3rd world countries.

[mike_forsythe 0]

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I say you continue to thumb your nose at those who don't and tell em to fuck off.

You really need to quit trying to think of what people are thinking, especially when you are wrong. It is very clear by your hostile response that you missed my point. You stated that because you are an American you don't have health care and I stated that I am an American and do have health care. The point being that you can be American and have health care.

Since I spent over 10 years and thousands of hours in both our county and others providing heath care on a voluntary basis regardless of rather or not the patients had insurance or the ability to pay I accept your apology for implying that I don't care or want everyone to have health care.

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Yes, normal within the bastard we I call the USA

There, I corrected it for YOUR views.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I basically agree with that. BTW, those horrible, scrubby, low-life, scurge of the earth garbage of America low income earners are the ones making the rich, rich.

The "rich" would be stupid to pay American workers a minimum of $15,080 a year for full-time work when they can get semi-skilled Chinese or Indian laborers for $1800 a year.

[Lucky... 0]

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I basically agree with that. BTW, those horrible, scrubby, low-life, scurge of the earth garbage of America low income earners are the ones making the rich, rich.

The "rich" would be stupid to pay American workers a minimum of $15,080 a year for full-time work when they can get semi-skilled Chinese or Indian laborers for $1800 a year.

Yep, and with the corporations in control, that's what happens, which is why w/o govintervention we are truly fucked. The gov is not the bad guy anymore.

[Lucky... 0]

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You really need to quit trying to think of what people are thinking, especially when you are wrong. It is very clear by your hostile response that you missed my point. You stated that because you are an American you don't have health care and I stated that I am an American and do have health care. The point being that you can be American and have health care.

It's called sarcasm. Of course Americans have HC, but 40ish million don't have any and probably over 100M more thyat have it have ins with such high deductables and otehr costs that they are afraid to use it. BOTTOM LINE: American HC is pathetic for all but the very few at the top, like most things American.

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Since I spent over 10 years and thousands of hours in both our county and others providing heath care on a voluntary basis regardless of rather or not the patients had insurance or the ability to pay I accept your apology for implying that I don't care or want everyone to have health care.

And I don't extend it. Amazing you would defend a system that is so selective and prohobitive. BTW, you prove my point; you have to do free work because Nazimerica is so selective and prohibitive with their HC. I do thank you for that. A civilized nation would have the gov ensuring HC, not at the whims of private citizens.

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There, I corrected it for YOUR views.

I don't think I'm alone.

[Gawain 0]

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Dude, if you don't know what it is...

I'm not a liar liek so many on the other side. If I don't know, I dunno. As I said, I'm an American, HC is somewhat foreign to me. You make it as a slam to me, but in reality it just exemplifies the garbage I live in that a 47 YO man doesn't know the intricacies of HC.

So, now the rest of us have to pick up the slack if you don't know what you're talking about?

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A cafeteria plan is a "Flexible Spending Plan". Dollars placed into this plan can be deducted from pay, pre-tax. This allows you to pay for covered expenses without being taxed on the income to pay for it. Many people use this to pay for things like child care, deductibles, etc. It's significant, and my example is on-target, if not a bulls-eye. The middle class doesn't just exist under $50K/year. Take a look around. For the average income in the United States to be hovering over $40K/year...figure it out.

I'm familiar with that plan, just wasn't aware of the name of it.

Figure what out; how wonderful the cafeteria plan is? How wonderful is it for homeless? For the piss-poor who can't divert their income? Etc You figure it out.

You're speaking as if the middle class only exists under $40K or $30K per year. It doesn't. I cited an example as the median household income.

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Tax increases under Clinton added two more brackets to the upper income (36%, and 39.6%) earners. This was off-set by a cut in the capital gains tax (and it's what was also used in Congress to balance the budget).

What was used to balance the budget, the tax cut in capital gains? Is that your tired way of saying tax cuts my friends creates more revenue? I think Clinton's entire fiscal plan is what balanced the budget, but I'm entertained by you cherry-picking parts of Clinton's tax policy and making assumptions.

I reached into the toilet and found this: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm1835.cfm

This is what you're saying. So in 1997, after the economy was well within it's prosperity run, the dot.com boom was driving things as were the 1990 and 1993 tax increases paying the deficit down-surplus up, Clinton signs this rag for minimum wage increase as well as other things. It was a deal with teh devils (Republicans). See, in order for your boased, flawed argument to work, you would have to explain away the amazing fiscal reform from Reagan's mess to this tax change - WELL INTO THE CLINTON SUCCESS PERIOD. Youc an't, it was all tax increases in 1990 and 1993. Nice try tho, I was waiting for that in the many fiscal threads I wrote. While you're at it, explain GWB's tax cuts and tehir enormous success. And if you still have the energy, tell us all about fascist Ronnie and his lovely tax cuts and their resulting success.

True or false: tax revenues were up during the 90s. Who controls the purse-strings? President Clinton signed it for sure. It was his watch, and he was steward over a great post-Cold-War peacetime expansion. The difference is that he didn't want to spend like a drunken sailor, and neither did Speaker Gingrich. We got the reverse whammy at the turn of the century.

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President Obama's tax promises have said nothing, nothing, of a tax cut to low earners. You know why? Because low earners end up not paying tax.

I basically agree with that. BTW, those horrible, scrubby, low-life, scurge of the earth garbage of America low income earners are the ones making the rich, rich. So the idea is that money is taxed, not people. Don't like taxes, make very little or nothing - the tax man won't be knocking.

How can you basically agree with me, when I responded to you saying that President Obama is "trying" to cut taxes on the poor?

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The example I proposed shows a net loss to "Jack" and his family. Justify that.

We can use you as an example if you want. What's your salary? What, if any benefits do you get from your employer? Throw some bottom line dollars out there, instead of hypothetical "gain for most" because "Obama is trying to cut taxes"...rubbish.

Let's not make this about me. Provide a hypothetical person if you like, I'll play along.

I just did? Did you not read my post about "Jack"...you know, the one where he's on a plan you know nothing about?

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You cannont implement a Trillion dollar program for nothing.

Your president did, they call it the Iraq/AFG Wars. Let me see how it worked out..... the world hated us, we lost almost 5k great people, killed probably 100's of thousands o inncient civilians over there, and teh grubby American corps made off massively. So yes we can, you just don't like it like you enjoy your mess; OUR TURN.

See the subject of this thread. You can't pawn this on President Bush any longer. The is President Obama's, Speaker Pelosi's and Sen. Reid's show now.

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The offsets that Sen. Reid put in this bill will not pay for it. You can't possibly believe this will cost as promised?

And I don't. What part of, 'Let's be normal and guarantee every American HC' don't you get? You have to have a solution other than FUCK THE POOR - I DON'T GIVE A GOOD GOD DAMNED ABOUT PEOPLE; IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. You and your's time appears to be up, this will change America.

Enjoy your time waiting in line for "free" care dude. I'll continue to work my ass off building a business, providing jobs, and paying my own way. Enjoy the tit, I don't think you're going to like how it tastes all that much...but as long as it changes right? Stuff you know nothing about...along with news organizations and reference material.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mike_forsythe 0]

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BOTTOM LINE: American HC is pathetic for all but the very few at the top, like most things American.

Well I am nowhere near the top so I guess that statement is not true.

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And I don't extend it.

Nor would I expect someone like you too.....your own sarcasm back at you! You didn't really think that I would expect someone with your post history and views to admit that they were wrong, hurtful and insensitive to care and apologize for it? But you could prove me wrong and do the decent thing........ball is in your court.

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Amazing you would defend a system that is so selective and prohobitive.

How? Show me where I said the system does not need to be improved and care for all at least at the basic level should be provided. Again you are projecting your prejudice as someone else’s, move on and quit putting words that don't exist in others mouths.

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BTW, you prove my point; you have to do free work because Nazimerica is so selective and prohibitive with their HC.

No, I guess you don't know what the word volunteer means, I didn't "have" to do anything, it was a choice to help others. My question is what are you doing to help your country?

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I don't think I'm alone.

I don't think you are either but "we" as you stated does not include me and to quote you "I don't think that I am alone" either.

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I do thank you for that.

Thank you, helping other has given me some of the greatest joy in my life.