Chalk one up for the GW Deniers . . .

[skydyvr 0]

But now the question is -- who are the real deniers?

http://www.examiner.com/x-28973-Essex-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m11d19-Hadley-CRU-hacked-with-release-of-hundreds-of-docs-and-emails

"The University of East Anglia's Hadley Climatic Research Centre appears to have suffered a security breach earlier today, when an unknown hacker apparently downloaded 1079 e-mails and 72 documents of various types and published them to an anonymous FTP server. These files appear to contain highly sensitive information that, if genuine, could prove extremely embarrassing to the authors of the e-mails involved. Those authors include some of the most celebrated names among proponents of the theory of anthropogenic global warming (AGW)."

. . =(_8^(1)

[kallend 2,112]

Never put in an email (or on the internet in general) anything you don't want the whole world to know.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skiskyrock 0]

Quote

But now the question is -- who are the real deniers?

http://www.examiner.com/x-28973-Essex-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m11d19-Hadley-CRU-hacked-with-release-of-hundreds-of-docs-and-emails

"The University of East Anglia's Hadley Climatic Research Centre appears to have suffered a security breach earlier today, when an unknown hacker apparently downloaded 1079 e-mails and 72 documents of various types and published them to an anonymous FTP server. These files appear to contain highly sensitive information that, if genuine, could prove extremely embarrassing to the authors of the e-mails involved. Those authors include some of the most celebrated names among proponents of the theory of anthropogenic global warming (AGW)."

I knew it was a mistake to keep the details of the conspiracy on an academic mail server, but Al Gore said the secure system in the batcave wasn't ready yet.

Looks to me like a bunch of academics dealing with end effects in smoothed data series, reviewing papers, and dealing with abusive freedom of information act requests. Also, i wouldn't necessarily believe everything I read off of a Russian FTP server.

[1969912 0]

According to the site linked by the OP, the file has been removed from the FTP site, but there is a torrent available here: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

EDIT: Downloaded it, then scanned for viruses using Clamwin. Scan was OK. Extracted the .zip and it appears to be the right file. Might take a while to read...

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[quade 4]

And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[1969912 0]

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And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

You could start by reading it. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[quade 4]

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And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

You could start by reading it. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

My understanding is that I can also download a story about Vulcans and Klingons via torrents. Doesn't make them real.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[timmyfitz 0]

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Quote

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And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

You could start by reading it. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

My understanding is that I can also download a story about Vulcans and Klingons via torrents. Doesn't make them real.

That's the best use of a straw man argument I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.

[quade 4]

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Quote

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And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

You could start by reading it. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

My understanding is that I can also download a story about Vulcans and Klingons via torrents. Doesn't make them real.

That's the best use of a straw man argument I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.

Great. Then defend your case. Why do you believe that anything about the messages is real? What evidence do you have?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[airdvr 210]

Quote

And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

The Internet is abuzz about the leaked data from the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit (commonly called Hadley CRU), which has acknowledged the theft of 61MB of confidential data

TGIF Edition asked Jones about the controversial "hide the decline" comment from an e-mail he wrote in 1999: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd [sic] from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."

He told the magazine that there was no intention to mislead, but he had "no idea" what he meant by those words.

"That was an e-mail from ten years ago. Can you remember the exact context of what you wrote ten years ago?" he said.

"Mike" refers to Jones' colleague Michael Mann, who told the New York Times that the "trick" was simply a way of solving a data problem. In this case, the warming trend of the last century was detected in tree-ring samples only until 1960, but it continued in thermometer readings.

Jones' word choice was poor, Mann told the Times, but the calculations were "not something secret."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576009,00.html


There's no place like home
There's no place like home

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[d16842 0]

Quote

And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

Well, what makes the public believe the scientists more extreme claims are real? I used to run an R&D lab, and I guarantee you that many study results around the world are skewed in the the quest to get follow-on funding. And there is no doubt that a study "finding" a problem is more likely to get-follow on funding in this subject, than one finding none.

For years I used an Excel routine to generate first, second, third, and fourth order equation graphs to present to management. After finding out what their mood of the day was, THEN, I selected which graph to show. It didn't skew our actual science, but certainly did the funding requests.

Don't get me wrong, it can't be a good thing to put giga-tons of carbon into the air. But don't believe scientists are beyond using spin to get funding.

Tom B

[timmyfitz 0]

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Quote

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And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

You could start by reading it. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206

My understanding is that I can also download a story about Vulcans and Klingons via torrents. Doesn't make them real.

That's the best use of a straw man argument I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.

Great. Then defend your case. Why do you believe that anything about the messages is real? What evidence do you have?

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I didn't say the message was real or not but you discount it solely because of how it can be downloaded. As a torrent.

You can download the Rosetta Stone language learning programs and a story about Vulcans and Klingons as a torrent. Does that make the Rosetta Stone fiction?

Try again.

[quade 4]

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You can download the Rosetta Stone learning languages and a story about Vulcans and Klingons as a torrent. Does that make the Rosetta Stone fiction?

Languages and the program Rosetta Stone exist outside of the internet. They are verifiable facts. If a person believes everything they read on the internet, then they are probably wildly misinformed.

Which is why I was asking the question to begin with.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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you discount it because of how it can be downloaded. As a torrent.

No - he discounts it because it didn't come from the IPCC - just as kallend and billvon will.

*Edit to add*

(Looking at post directly above)

Told ya.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

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You can download the Rosetta Stone learning languages and a story about Vulcans and Klingons as a torrent. Does that make the Rosetta Stone fiction?

Languages and the program Rosetta Stone exist outside of the internet. They are verifiable facts. If a person believes everything they read on the internet, then they are probably wildly misinformed.

Which is why I was asking the question to begin with.

But you still originally discounted it solely based on it being downloadable as a torrent. Something about Vulcans and Klingons? Try again.

[quade 4]

Quote

But you still originally discounted it solely based on it being downloadable as a torrent. Something about Vulcans and Klingons? Try again.

Are you one of those people that don't understand the concept of analogy?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

Oh, damn....

Quote

From: Kevin Trenberth
To: Michael Mann
Subject: Re: BBC U-turn on climate
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:57:37 -0600
Cc: Stephen H Schneider , Myles Allen , peter stott , “Philip D. Jones” , Benjamin Santer , Tom Wigley , Thomas R Karl , Gavin Schmidt , James Hansen , Michael Oppenheimer
Hi all
Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming ? We are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low.
This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing weather).
Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth’s global energy. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 1, 19-27, doi:10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001. [1][PDF] (A PDF of the published version can be obtained from the author.)
***
The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.***

Heh heh heh...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Those dedicated professionals of 'the consensus' wouldn't be falsifying information, right?

Quote

***From: Tom Wigley [...]
To: Phil Jones [...]
Subject: 1940s
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:25:38 -0600
Cc: Ben Santer [...]
Phil,
Here are some speculations on correcting SSTs to partly explain the 1940s warming blip. If you look at the attached plot you will see that theland also shows the 1940s blip (as I’m sure you know).
So, if we could reduce the ocean blip by, say, 0.15 degC, then this would be significant for the global mean – but we’d still have to explain the land blip. I’ve chosen 0.15 here deliberately. This still leaves an ocean blip, and i think one needs to have some form of ocean blip to explain the land blip (via either some common forcing, or ocean forcing land, or vice versa, or all of these). When you look at other blips, the land blips are 1.5 to 2 times (roughly) the ocean blips—higher sensitivity plus thermal inertia effects. My 0.15 adjustment leaves things consistent with this, so you can see where I am coming from.
Removing ENSO does not affect this.
It would be good to remove at least part of the 1940s blip, but we are still left with “why the blip”.
Let me go further. If you look at NH vs SH and the aerosol effect (qualitatively or with MAGICC) then with a reduced ocean blip we get continuous warming in the SH, and a cooling in the NH—just as one would expect with mainly NH aerosols.
The other interesting thing is (as Foukal et al. note – from MAGICC) that the 1910-40 warming cannot be solar. The Sun can get at most 10% of this with Wang et al solar, less with Foukal solar. So this may well be NADW, as Sarah and I noted in 1987 (and also Schlesinger later). A reduced SST blip in the 1940s makes the 1910-40 warming larger than the SH (which it currently is not)—but not really enough.
So ... why was the SH so cold around 1910? Another SST problem? (SH/NH data also attached.)
This stuff is in a report I am writing for EPRI, so I’d appreciate any comments you (and Ben) might have.
Tom.

And:

Quote

From: Phil Jones
To: ray bradley ,mann@XXXX, mhughes@XXXX
Subject: Diagram for WMO Statement
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:31:15 +0000
Cc: k.briffa@XXX.osborn@XXXX

Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,

Once Tim’s got a diagram here we’ll send that either later today or first thing tomorrow.

I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline. Mike’s series got the annual land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999 for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.

Thanks for the comments, Ray.

Cheers
Phil

Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone XXXX
School of Environmental Sciences Fax XXXX
University of East Anglia
Norwich

And they certainly wouldn't be deleting data requested under FOIA:

Quote

From: Phil Jones
To: “Michael E. Mann”
Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?

Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis.

Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.

We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.

I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!

Cheers

Phil

Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit

And they certainly wouldn't be trying to stifle any dissenting views, would they? I mean, I was told that there's nothing wrong with peer review!

Quote

The other paper by MM is just garbage – as you knew. De Freitas again. Pielke is also losing all credibility as well by replying to the mad Finn as well – frequently as I see it. I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. K and I will keep them out somehow – even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Certainly looks like quite the "Inconvenient Truth" for the Goreacle® and the rest of the Mann-made warming community.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[timmyfitz 0]

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But you still originally discounted it solely based on it being downloadable as a torrent. Something about Vulcans and Klingons? Try again.

Are you one of those people that don't understand the concept of analogy?

Are you one of those people that don't understand when you have screwed up. I guess so. Maybe we should bring up the thread that you started about Palin getting preferential treatment at a restaurant which never happened.

Here, let's try reviewing this thread.

Post #5
Quade says:And what leads us to believe any of this is real?

Post #6
1969912 says:You could start by reading it. http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5171206 (I guess he was asking you to read it based upon it's information, not the fact that it came from a torrent)

Post #7

Quade says:My understanding is that I can also download a story about Vulcans and Klingons via torrents. Doesn't make them real. (So you don't read the info that can easily be downloaded but you just dismiss it because it can be downloaded as a torrent. Cool)

Post #8

Me says:That's the best use of a straw man argument I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the laugh. (I guess you are unfamiliar with what a strawman argument is: A straw man is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. Sounds like you. Bad torrents!!!)

Post #9

Quade says:Great. Then defend your case. Why do you believe that anything about the messages is real? What evidence do you have?(At this point I have not agreed with or denied if the info is true, just that you have dismissed it solely because it is a torrent)

At this point I believe most people can see that you are trying to cover your ass to avoid saying you screwed up. There are many things you can download as a torrent but you have made the assumption that a torrent is bogus information. Very wrong assumption.

Have a nice day.

(Why do I have a feeling that it is going to be a Lucky response....spin, spin, spin.)

I'm going out for the evening but I can't wait to see your spin the next time I read this thread.

(Edit to add bolding)

[quade 4]

And now, when I see a person that appears to have an OCD man-crush on me, I just gotta back away. You're not worth my time at this point.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

And now, when I see a person that appears to have an OCD man-crush on me, I just gotta back away. You're not worth my time at this point.

Makes it easier to not have to answer the question, too.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[timmyfitz 0]

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And now, when I see a person that appears to have an OCD man-crush on me, I just gotta back away. You're not worth my time at this point.

Yep, that's the kind of response I expected. Attack me personally because you can't defend what you have posted along with your obvious bias. Keep that spin going. Throw in a little back peddling for good measure too.

[turtlespeed 226]

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And now, when I see a person that appears to have an OCD man-crush on me, I just gotta back away. You're not worth my time at this point.

Yep, that's the kind of response I expected. Attack me personally because you can't defend what you have posted along with your obvious bias. Keep that spin going. Throw in a little back peddling for good measure too.

Pswah - If the past is any indication . . . what he'll do is ignore the subject/post/thread for now because he would have to admit he is wrong. THAT won't happen. His self image is WAY to Godlike to allow that.

Perhaps it should be interesting to see which avenue gets traveled.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[timmyfitz 0]

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Quote

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And now, when I see a person that appears to have an OCD man-crush on me, I just gotta back away. You're not worth my time at this point.

Yep, that's the kind of response I expected. Attack me personally because you can't defend what you have posted along with your obvious bias. Keep that spin going. Throw in a little back peddling for good measure too.

Pswah - If the past is any indication . . . what he'll do is ignore the subject/post/thread for now because he would have to admit he is wrong. THAT won't happen. His self image is WAY to Godlike to allow that.

Perhaps it should be interesting to see which avenue gets traveled.

He's not ignoring this thread. I'm sure he is reading it. He just has nothing to refute his screw up so we won't see him post again. That is the best way though. Best to just walk away when you lose.