I agree with every thing that is said in this video Do you? Gun Free zone (free fire zones)

[DARK 0]

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my point? like drink driving your gun crime(not talking about gang to gang i really couldnt give a shite about that its everything else) is not a regulation problem or a enforcement problem its an attitude problem

I think you will find that the increase in punishment cannot be overlooked as a factor in the change in rate.

oh ye i meant to reply to this

your penalties are harsher than ours and your enforcement is way higher(i could drive across the country on a motorway and not see one police officer) and yet your drunk driving rate is way higher or at least in my experience it is

also i know people personally who would never dream of drink driving over here but they did for the first time when they were in the states because 'everyone did over there' retarded logic but it happened nevertheless

and im done goodnight guys

[Amazon 7]

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>It's quite empowering to be able to rely on myself and not the whims
>of others to protect me.

If a gun makes that much difference in your outlook on life, it is likely you are depending on it to do more than it can do. It reminds me of the swooper who gets a Xaos-27 78 and an AAD. The AAD, of course, will keep him alive even if he does something stupid; that way he doesn't have to worry as much about screwing up.

It is the general outlook on life.. self sufficiency.. and I dont count on any of the fuck nuggets out there to take care of me. I am just making their job easier, not having to worry about me.

I always seem to do quite fine when we have power outages and storms. I am the very last drop on our power line, hence I am the very last one to get power back. The fact that I have guns and know how to use them could make a difference in staying alive at some point. It would be rude not to.

[kelpdiver 2]

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your penalties are harsher than ours and your enforcement is way higher(i could drive across the country on a motorway and not see one police officer) and yet your drunk driving rate is way higher or at least in my experience it is

How do you know? If there are far fewer cops patrolling Ireland, are they still catching as many DUIs?

Ireland seems to have about 12k arrests per year. This would translate to roughly 600k here. Our yearly arrests are in the ballpark of 1.4M. But again, is that 2.3x difference due to behavior, lack of penalties, or merely a difference in enforcement?

[warpedskydiver 0]

So you are a vivid hunter and there is a black panther near your home?

I thought you liked liberals.

[Ron 10]

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your penalties are harsher than ours and your enforcement is way higher

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3236442.stm

Drink driving deaths in Northern Ireland have risen sharply since last year, according to police statistics...

He said a convicted drunk driver would lose their licence, even their job, and, if they killed someone, could go to jail.

That does not sound less harsh.

Legal limit in Ireland: Less than .08 BAC
Legal limit in the US: Less than .08 BAC

1st offense Ireland: Up to one year suspension of DL
1st offense US: Varies by State, GA it is up to one year, VA it is 7 days.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Drivingissues/1104284869.html

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also i know people personally who would never dream of drink driving over here but they did for the first time when they were in the states because 'everyone did over there' retarded logic but it happened nevertheless

Anecdotal evidence.... I know people over hear that would NEVER DD.

Some more:

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http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/ireland/091030/irish-pols-protest-proposed-drunk-driving-limits

Irish pols protest proposed drunk-driving limits
The proposed 0.05 percent BAC would only cover one pint of Guinness

Many country pubs have already shut because of lost business due to the economic crisis, a smoking ban and increased enforcement of drunk driving laws.

This was great:

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Mattie McGrath, Fianna Fail TD from Tipperary South, went so far as to argue on NewsTalk Radio that drinking and driving was a good thing, as he knew people “for whom drink is a relaxant and they might be more nervous without it.”

And HAD seems to be the key word here.
***In a telephone interview Faughnan said that until recently Ireland had a poor record of enforcement of drunk-driving laws compared to countries like the U.S., but that in the last decade there had been a “sea-change” in attitudes about drunk driving because of improved traffic controls.

“People coming from pubs or golf clubs now know that there is a good chance they will be stopped by police and breathalyzed,” he said.

Again, the data does not support your theory.

I am willing to bet your gun theory is also not based on data, but unsubstantiated opinion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DARK 0]

you havnt given any data accept for a stat from a british tv station about northern ireland which is a different country with a different goverment and therefore different drink driving policies.


there has certainly been stricter rules and enforcement in the last 5-10 years as i said and yes in the older generations this has reduced drink driving rate. however the far far more influential cause in the drop in dd rates has been the media campaign(funded by the goverment) which has virtually irradicated people of my genreation drink driving(im talking about cities here ie population centers with good infrastructure there are still a portion in rural areas who insist on dd for their own reasons

either way this is not a dd debate i was using it as an example if you disagree with me fine clearly many people in america do disagree with me or you would have fixed the problem years ago :p

[nerdgirl 0]

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i agree. what he is talking about is a reaction to a problem not a solution to one. i never hear any debate on actual solutions to your murder problem from either side be it pro or anti gun

its a social problem that will take at least a few generations to fix but it can be done

Concur.

I'll even push it a lil' further -- identifying that there is a problem is easy compared to figuring out the causes. (Figuring out solutions is harder and implementing and executing the solutions is hardest.)

We have had a few discussions at times trying to pull apart some of the causes both of murder and crimes rates. Imo, a big step is disentangling correlation with causation.

There may also be physical/physiological causes, e.g., one known physiological link (correlation … possible causation) has been found for increase in violent crime: lead poisoning in US cities in the late 1970s & 1980s and with the accompanying decrease in crime in the 1990s as exposure to lead has decreased (via elimination of lead in gasoline & paint). Lead … not gun availability or gun control. Is that likely to be the only factor? No. Very, very rarely (if ever) are there single independent variable explanations for observed social phenomena, of which incidence of crime is an example. Previous discussion on role of lead and an illustrative response here.

In my mind, at least, the lack of correlation between legal access to guns (i.e., liberal gun laws) and crime, including murder, has been demonstrated convincingly. Does anyone have new data to suggest otherwise?

W/r/t social or cultural factors, imo, it’s important to keep in mind: if there are social and cultural factors (variables) at play, particularly w/r/t homicide, we’re generally debating 0.5%, 2%, at most 5% changes in violence levels domestically (per capita). If one goes back to historical data: overall violence has declined most dramatically as the impact of religion on western society has decreased and secular & civil-based law has increased.

An anecdotal observation that I've heard repeatedly from APD officers -- so it's just that: anecodotal, i.e., the kind of thing that might spur further investigation but not on which I would base thinking or policy recommendations-- is that crime decreases in Atlanta when it rains. (How often does it rain in the UK or Ireland?)

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[DARK 0]

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i agree. what he is talking about is a reaction to a problem not a solution to one. i never hear any debate on actual solutions to your murder problem from either side be it pro or anti gun

its a social problem that will take at least a few generations to fix but it can be done

Concur.

I'll even push it a lil' further -- identifying that there is a problem is easy compared to figuring out the causes. (Figuring out solutions is harder and implementing and executing the solutions is hardest.)

We have had a few discussions at times trying to pull apart some of the causes both of murder and crimes rates. Imo, a big step is disentangling correlation with causation.

There may also be physical/physiological causes, e.g., one known physiological link (correlation … possible causation) has been found for increase in violent crime: lead poisoning in US cities in the late 1970s & 1980s and with the accompanying decrease in crime in the 1990s as exposure to lead has decreased (via elimination of lead in gasoline & paint). Lead … not gun availability or gun control. Is that likely to be the only factor? No. Very, very rarely (if ever) are there single independent variable explanations for observed social phenomena, of which incidence of crime is an example. Previous discussion on role of lead and an illustrative response here.

In my mind, at least, the lack of correlation between legal access to guns (i.e., liberal gun laws) and crime, including murder, has been demonstrated convincingly. Does anyone have new data to suggest otherwise?

W/r/t social or cultural factors, imo, it’s important to keep in mind: if there are social and cultural factors (variables) at play, particularly w/r/t homicide, we’re generally debating 0.5%, 2%, at most 5% changes in violence levels domestically (per capita). If one goes back to historical data: overall violence has declined most dramatically as the impact of religion on western society has decreased and secular & civil-based law has increased.

An anecdotal observation that I've heard repeatedly from APD officers -- so it's just that: anecodotal, i.e., the kind of thing that might spur further investigation but not on which I would base thinking or policy recommendations-- is that crime decreases in Atlanta when it rains. (How often does it rain in the UK or Ireland?)

/Marg

she was able to say it way nicer than i could hence her name 'nerdgirl' i assume :p

as for your early 90's decrease in crime? surely the only cause for that was clintons tough war on crime no? :p seen as you seem quite read up on the subject personally i subscribe to the freakenomics theory of why the crime rate declined in the early 90's ;)

and it rains way way too frequently here :p

[Ron 10]

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you havnt [SIC] given any data accept for a stat from a british [SIC] tv station

I gave THREE different cites. You have given NONE, just personal anecdotes.

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there has certainly been stricter rules and enforcement in the last 5-10 years as i said and yes in the older generations this has reduced drink driving rate. however the far far more influential cause in the drop in dd rates has been the media campaign(funded by the goverment[SIC]) which has virtually irradicated [SIC] people of my genreation [SIC] drink driving(im talking about cities here ie population centers with good infrastructure there are still a portion in rural areas who insist on dd for their own reasons

You have provided ZERO data to support your position... And every other bit of data proves your position wrong.

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either way this is not a dd debate i was using it as an example if you disagree with me fine clearly many people in america [SIC] do disagree with me or you would have fixed the problem years ago

Again, opinion only.

You are trying to credit your favorite theory without a single shred of data to back it up while ignoring data that proves your pet theory wrong.

You ignore the other possible factors in the situation as well... such as how in the US driving is more of a way of life than many other parts of the world and how the US's public transportation is not as developed as other parts of the world.

Again, you ignore all the data that proves you wrong, ignore all the factors that could be involved and claim a theory that you have not supported with a single shred of data, just personal story's.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DARK 0]

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I gave THREE different cites. You have given NONE, just personal anecdotes.

1st site = wrong country and wrong goverment sorry

2nd site = fair enough the limit is the same(for now we are reducing it to .5 and the penelaties vary for first offences, i never contended otherwise. so lets say im wrong and ireland has roughly the same penalties, what explains the lower number of incidences of drink driving? less enforcement? possibly but that does not explain the reduction in road deaths of 13% in the last 10 years while the number of vehicles has risen 41% and number of licence holders has risen 21% in the same period (http://www.penaltypoints.ie/road_crash_statistics_index.php)

this time period of reduction is pretty much exactly the same time period during which my generation has been growing up buying cars getting licences and taking to the road having been subject to the most graphic anti drink driving ad campaign i have seen anywere

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You have provided ZERO data to support your position... And every other bit of data proves your position wrong.

quotes from politicians do not = data that was what i was saying

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Again, opinion only.

that last part was said tongue in cheek clearly it didnt get threw the computer screen

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You are trying to credit your favorite theory without a single shred of data to back it up while ignoring data that proves your pet theory wrong.

its not my pet theory or my favourite or anything else its my opinion on a subject, that does not affect me all that much and i dont care all that much about,that is based on personal experience in both countries and national independant statistics

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You ignore the other possible factors in the situation as well... such as how in the US driving is more of a way of life than many other parts of the world and how the US's public transportation is not as developed as other parts of the world.

public transport in rural ireland is non existant and is severly lacking in every city accept dublin wereas around 50% of our population if not more live in rural areas (http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm) this was the very cause of our high rate of drink driving everyone going to local pubs with massive car parks full of cars and people driving home to their farms(basically)

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Again, you ignore all the data that proves you wrong, ignore all the factors that could be involved and claim a theory that you have not supported with a single shred of data, just personal story's.

you clearly believe that regulation is the solution fine i disagree i dont really care either way above are some statistics which i have interpreted in such a way to form my opinion along with my personal experience(god forbid) im sure you can look at them and interpret them in anyway you want.

IN MY OPINION your country in general needs an attitude change before you will solve the problems of A) drink driving and B) gun crime


sorry for dragging this so off topic i didnt expect my little analogy to cause such a debate

[quade 4]

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i didnt expect my little analogy to cause such a debate

You're new here; aren't you?

Even the briefest and most innocent comment about certain topics are sure to result in responses from some of the folks here that even J.K. Rowling would find lengthy.

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They

Meaning WHAT? Who are "they"?

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***will

Will, not shall. They still have a choice. It's not the law.
Stop saying "they"! Who the fuck are "they"?

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pick

That's your opinion. It's not a FACT.

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every

Oh no. I know one time it didn't happen so your just lying. It doesn't happen "every" time.

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wrod

You can't even spell "word". Why should I even listen to you.

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apart.

I swear to god I don't have OCD. This is a completely rational way of having a discussion and if you don't respond to every single point I've made in my overly voluminous post, then I win by default and you're just a lying liberal douchebag. So, how come you didn't reply to my post #66 in this thread? Huh?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 10]

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fair enough the limit is the same(for now we are reducing it to .5 and the penelaties [SIC] vary for first offences [SIC], i never contended otherwise.

Yes, you said it was MORE restrictive in the US.

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what explains the lower number of incidences of drink driving?

There can be several causes:

1. Your theory that it is all social shifts.... But that same societal shift has taken place in the US.

2. The differences in the public transportation between the two County's make it easier in one and harder in another to avoid driving.

3. The attachment to automobiles that we have in the US vs Ireland.

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is based on personal experience in both countries and national independant [SIC] statistics

Stats that you have not bothered to show.

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you clearly believe that regulation is the solution

Never said that either.....

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IN MY OPINION your country in general needs an attitude change before you will solve the problems of A) drink driving and B) gun crime

In my opinion, you prefer anecdotal evidence to statistics, and I feel that unsupported opinions are not worth giving any merit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Even the briefest and most innocent comment about certain topics are sure to result in responses from some of the folks here

And others will spout opinions based only on emotion and void of data.... When challenged those people will ignore the info and instead attack the person.

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So, how come you didn't reply to my post #66 in this thread? Huh?

Because you can't without looking like a lying liberal douchebag is the answer you are looking for.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 4]

I'm sorry Ron; was I talking to you?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 10]

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I'm sorry Ron; was I talking to you?

Nope, but you were not talking to him till you were.

And you still have not answered the simple questions several have asked of you... So, I found your little rant to be hysterical and hypocritical.

I guess in your opinion no one should reply to anyone unless it was directed AT them or TO them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DARK 0]

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Yes, you said it was MORE restrictive in the US.

i said the laws were enforced alot more and i said the penalties were severe i never mentioned the actual limit

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There can be several causes:

1. Your theory that it is all social shifts.... But that same societal shift has taken place in the US.

2. The differences in the public transportation between the two County's make it easier in one and harder in another to avoid driving.

3. The attachment to automobiles that we have in the US vs Ireland.

did you actually read my last post? the 3 above points were addressed with references

here ill give you my references again you will have to read my post properly to determine why they are relevant
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm
http://www.penaltypoints.ie/road_crash_statistics_index.php

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is based on personal experience in both countries and national independant [SIC] statistics

i just gave you the stats again did you read my post?

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Stats that you have not bothered to show.

i just gave you the stats again did you read my post?

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you clearly believe that regulation is the solution

Never said that either.....


***In my opinion, you prefer anecdotal evidence to statistics, and I feel that unsupported opinions are not worth giving any merit.

[quade 4]

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I'm sorry Ron; was I talking to you?

Nope, but you were not talking to him till you were.

Well, you have me there. I wasn't talking to him until I was. Brilliant observation Ron. Bravo!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

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I'm sorry Ron; was I talking to you?

Nope, but you were not talking to him till you were.

Well, you have me there. I wasn't talking to him until I was. Brilliant observation Ron. Bravo!

lol he did get ya there quade.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Ron 10]

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Well, you have me there. I wasn't talking to him until I was. Brilliant observation Ron. Bravo!

Now if you would just quit running from questions you are afraid to answer we would be getting somewhere.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

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But you do fear a kitchen fire which is why you're buying the fire extinguisher. It's ok. That is a reasonable fear. Kitchen fires can and do happen is many households. Ask any Fireman or cook.

What I find fascinating is people arming themselves for unfounded fears. Again, go back to what I said earlier about Michael Moore's film "Bowling for Columbine".

There's a difference between knowing something can happen and being afraid of it. Just ask any law enforcement officer, or stalking/domestic violence victim. I don't go a around afraid of a vehicle crash, but I drive a big, safe vehicle and wear a seat belt. I don't go around afraid of bodily injury, but I carry a serious first aid kit in both my vehicles. Etc, etc, etc.

You're quoting Michael Moore. Honestly, I should stop listening to you at all, but I know you better than that. Quoting Michael Moore on fear, violence, and reality is like quoting the Aryan Nation on race relations in America or the Khmer Rouge or Hitler on practices of good government.

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However, if a person fears random gunmen showing up at innocuous places and committing mass murders then they may not be looking at things the way they really are and should probably ask themselves why.

Again, I don't walk around afraid of it, but there's always that chance...
Besides, who said all they're thinking about is a VaTech/Fort Hood incident? Armed robberies happen. Strong arm robberies/muggings happen. Burglaries into occupied homes happen. Random assaults on strangers happen. None of them have happened to me, and I hope they never do, but should I just hope that based on the numbers they never will? Or is it reasonable to learn techniques and skills to protect myself, including with various tools?

My knife and carry gun are smaller and weigh less than my wallet and mobile phone. Don't think we're altering lifestyles and going through some massive inconvenience to carry. It's not a decision to be made lightly, but after a few weeks it only feels strange if you're NOT carrying.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

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There's a difference between knowing something can happen and being afraid of it.

I think you're just using the word "knowing" as a euphemism. I know 2+2=4. I know people can be mugged in the park late at night. However, if I arm myself in preparation to defend myself against an attack, there is no other explanation possible than I am in fear of the consequences if I don't. I realize that's not a fact most gun owners want to face, but it's the truth.

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You're quoting Michael Moore. Honestly, I should stop listening to you at all, but I know you better than that. Quoting Michael Moore on fear, violence, and reality is like quoting the Aryan Nation on race relations in America or the Khmer Rouge or Hitler on practices of good government.

Actually, I never quoted Michael Moore in this thread (or anywhere else I can recall). I did say he does have a point about fear in the US he makes in the film. Have you actually seen it or are you basing your opinions based on other people's? I think the observation he makes about fear as a motivator is an interesting and valid one.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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Actually, I never quoted Michael Moore in this thread (or anywhere else I can recall). I did say he does have a point about fear in the US he makes in the film. Have you actually seen it or are you basing your opinions based on other people's? I think the observation he makes about fear as a motivator is an interesting and valid one.

He attempts to make that argument, though it's secondary to his usual routine of misleading examples and ambush interviews.

[quade 4]

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Actually, I never quoted Michael Moore in this thread (or anywhere else I can recall). I did say he does have a point about fear in the US he makes in the film. Have you actually seen it or are you basing your opinions based on other people's? I think the observation he makes about fear as a motivator is an interesting and valid one.

He attempts to make that argument, though it's secondary to his usual routine of misleading examples and ambush interviews.

Right. I'm asking folks to look past the obvious sensationalist stuff and look at the more interesting root cause stuff.

To me, Michael Moore does a lot of harm to his causes by doing the sensationalist stuff. He really does have a few good points in all of his films, but I think he thinks he can't whip up publicity without doing the over the top stuff.

Still, down deep in the films, he does have a point.

BTW, in case anybody is wondering, it's why I tolerate the bashing I get from some of the more aggressive folks on here rather than just booting their asses. Occasionally, they do have a point of view I haven't heard before and when they do, I want to hear it. Although, sometimes it does feel like I have to move a mountain to get to that nugget.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

So, when are you going to address YOUR fear of the concealed-carry licensee's weapon, as show by your support of gun-free zones that do nothing to discourage criminal gunmen?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 4]

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So, when are you going to address YOUR fear of the concealed-carry licensee's weapon, as show by your support of gun-free zones that do nothing to discourage criminal gunmen?

Actually, I don't fear a CC holder's weapon. I do however fear for the safety of others by the folks that aren't CC holders especially the folks like gang members and drug dealers. Giving another tool to law enforcement to keep those folks away from schools is, in my opinion, a good thing.

As I recall, CC holders are allowed to carry their weapons in Gun Free School Zones. Or was that removed from the law that was passed in 1996? I believe the 1990 law was found to be unconstitutional because it didn't some exact clause in it, but that was included in the 1996 language.

Edited to add:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990
(Not authoritative but definitely the quickest and I assume watched like a hawk by the NRA for correctness.)

Or am I missing something?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver