Kennedy 0 #51 November 10, 2009 QuoteRight. And I'm NOT just talking about mass murders. I'm talking about the far more common event of an argument escalating to violence which is something a "Gun Free Zone" does in fact address. Less access to the weapon gives the person a chance to think about the consequences. Of for fuck sake, you have got to be kidding me. You think that if a gun is laying around, people will just fly off the handle and commit murder. If a person has such poor impulse control and no safety net to prevent them from harming another person over a simple argument, do you think the won't use other items as weapons? What, a gun around means they'll kill someone, but a knive or blunt object or any other dangerous item means they will thnk about the consequences? Come on man. QuoteAs for the case of a person that is intent on causing mass murders, that very rarely happens in the first place. The Walter Mitty / Rambo fantasy of a person, such as yourself, being present and stopping it is just that. While it's true that there have been occasions of it happening is not really an good reason for arming the populace and doing away with "Gun Free Zones." What does a gun free zone accomplish, other than ensuring that people who will not commit crime are not armed? The monsters walking our street willing to commit violent felonious attacks are not dissuaded by a minor law about where they can carry a gun. Countless criminals have stated they look for easy victims. What's easier, a place where no one is armed, or a place where people might be armed? QuoteLook at the entire picture and not just the Walter Mitty fantasy. And consider the real world experience of people who actually deal with violent criminals, instead of the worldview you choose to take as reality.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #52 November 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteRight. And I'm NOT just talking about mass murders. I'm talking about the far more common event of an argument escalating to violence which is something a "Gun Free Zone" does in fact address. Less access to the weapon gives the person a chance to think about the consequences. And a person that is going to obey the no guns sign isn't likely to be the type of person that's going to whip out a piece and kill someone in a fit of anger in the first place. That's not true. The immediate availability of a gun absolutely has an influence on murder rates. People are FAR more likely to be murdered with a gun in their own home by someone they know than ever be murdered in a location where guns are not allowed. Yes, you are correct, and according to John Lott's research, it LOWERS the rate"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #53 November 10, 2009 QuoteThat's not true. The immediate availability of a gun absolutely has an influence on murder rates. People are FAR more likely to be murdered with a gun in their own home by someone they know than ever be murdered in a location where guns are not allowed. [challenge] You're REALLY going to have to back that one up with some evidence. [/challenge]witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #54 November 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteRight. And I'm NOT just talking about mass murders. I'm talking about the far more common event of an argument escalating to violence which is something a "Gun Free Zone" does in fact address. Less access to the weapon gives the person a chance to think about the consequences. And a person that is going to obey the no guns sign isn't likely to be the type of person that's going to whip out a piece and kill someone in a fit of anger in the first place. That's not true. The immediate availability of a gun absolutely has an influence on murder rates. People are FAR more likely to be murdered with a gun in their own home by someone they know than ever be murdered in a location where guns are not allowed. Don't TELL me you're trying to use Kellerman's "43 times more likely" info...that's been debunked so many times it's not funny. If someone is THAT enraged, they'll use whatever weapon is at hand.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #55 November 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteThat's not true. The immediate availability of a gun absolutely has an influence on murder rates. People are FAR more likely to be murdered with a gun in their own home by someone they know than ever be murdered in a location where guns are not allowed. [challenge] You're REALLY going to have to back that one up with some evidence. [/challenge] No, he's right. It's just that it's a retarded statement. If someone is going to kill their gf or spouse (be it with a gun or another means), they're more likely to do it at home. But does this fact have any significance? Not at all. Quade, you're getting schooled left and right today with your half baked arguments. Pack it in already. If people having guns is going to lead to so many more shootings (either singular or mass), the WTF haven't we seen it already? In the past couple decades, all of the major states besides CA, IL, NY, MA have gone to shall issue CCW laws and millions of Americans have started carrying. The opponents kept trumpeting out the same tired bullshit as you are, and yet nothing of the sort took place. If it did, you gun grabbers would be telling us over and over again. Instead you're reduced to recycling Kellerman lies about how dangerous it is to keep a gun at home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #56 November 10, 2009 Your opinion will not affect mine nor, I assume, vice versa. I do find it amusing that when somebody like Darius asks my opinion and I give it to him all the gun nuts pop out of the woodwork and feel compelled to chime in and try to change it. What is it with you guys anyway? What threatens you so much? What gave you this irrational fear of being killed by random strangers?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #57 November 10, 2009 QuoteI do find it amusing that when somebody like Darius asks my opinion and I give it to him all the gun nuts pop out of the woodwork and feel compelled to chime in and try to change it. Gotta counter the bullshit info from the gunophobes where you find it. QuoteWhat is it with you guys anyway? What threatens you so much? What gave you this irrational fear of being killed by random strangers? You tell us - you're the one advocating gun-free zones.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #58 November 10, 2009 QuoteYou tell us. I asked you first! Justify your need for a gun at a school and especially one that has been designated a "Gun Free Zone". Do you actually believe that you are likely to ever run into a person on a killing spree? Really?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #59 November 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou tell us. I asked you first! Justify your need for a gun at a school and especially one that has been designated a "Gun Free Zone". Do you actually believe that you are likely to ever run into a person on a killing spree? Really? I'm sure the people that were at Columbine, or Appalachian State, or in Pearl, MS, or at VA Tech never thought that THEY would ever be likely to run into a person on a killing spree, too. Those "no gun" signs sure impressed Harris, Klebold, Bridges, Woodham and Cho, didn't they? So...we come back around to the main point yet again: "No Gun" signs are going to do exactly TWO things to deter someone in a killing rage: jack, and shit.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #60 November 10, 2009 Answer the question; "Do you actually believe that you are likely to ever run into a person on a killing spree?" You keep side stepping it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #61 November 10, 2009 QuoteAnswer the question; "Do you actually believe that you are likely to ever run into a person on a killing spree?" You keep side stepping it. Actually, no - you started the dance when you wouldn't answer how the 'no guns' zone is going to deter someone on a killing spree. So - you answer THAT one, first - then I'll answer yours.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #62 November 10, 2009 Well, if you read that then you should have read my previous answer on the subject in this same thread. Or are you now admitting that you just pick and choose what passages to read and respond to?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 November 10, 2009 QuoteWell, if you read that then you should have read my previous answer on the subject in this same thread. Or are you now admitting that you just pick and choose what passages to read and respond to? And you read MY answer in post 59 - or are YOU admitting that you pick and choose what passages to read and respond to?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #64 November 10, 2009 Except it doesn't answer the question. You state how other people may have felt, but you don't say at all whether or not you feel threatened. I want to know if YOU personally feel threatened.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #65 November 10, 2009 QuoteExcept it doesn't answer the question. You state how other people may have felt, but you don't say at all whether or not you feel threatened. I want to know if YOU personally feel threatened. Sure don't. But I also don't wait until my kitchen is on fire before I go buy an extinguisher, either. Why do you think that the only reason to carry a defensive weapon is fear?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #66 November 10, 2009 QuoteSure don't. But I also don't wait until my kitchen is on fire before I go buy an extinguisher, either. But you do fear a kitchen fire which is why you're buying the fire extinguisher. It's ok. That is a reasonable fear. Kitchen fires can and do happen is many households. Ask any Fireman or cook. What I find fascinating is people arming themselves for unfounded fears. Again, go back to what I said earlier about Michael Moore's film "Bowling for Columbine". Quote Why do you think that the only reason to carry a defensive weapon is fear? I think you just answered your own question in with the adjective used to describe the weapon. If you believe you have to defend yourself with a weapon, then you are afraid of the consequences of not being able to. There simply is no other logical or emotional reason. That's fine as long as the fear is a reasonable one with a reasonable expectation of happening, like the kitchen fire example. What I'm interested in is why any reasonable person would ever expect to find themselves in that sort of position on, for instance, a college campus. Mass murder carried out by a crazy person on a college campus is probably the one of the very least likely ways anybody in the United States is ever going to die. You take far more risks getting in your car and driving to work. You take far more risks doing just about anything. Understand that I agree there are FAR more reasons to own a gun than self defense and none of those may have anything to do with fear. A target shooter probably doesn't fear the piece of paper and a hunter probably doesn't really fear most of the game he's hunting from a distance. But if we're talking about defense, then at some level fear is the emotion that is controlling your actions. If it's a reasonable fear, like you're a security guard, then it's perfectly reasonable. If you live in an area with a reasonable expectation that somebody is going to break into your home then it's perfectly reasonable to have a gun at home for self defense. However, if a person fears random gunmen showing up at innocuous places and committing mass murders then they may not be looking at things the way they really are and should probably ask themselves why.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #67 November 10, 2009 nice job steering it back to fear. you don't have any preconceived notions do you? I don't fear a random attacker, nor a targeted one. I prefer to be prepared to defend myself and my family. I don't like "gun free zones" and try to avoid them (rather than carry in them). Not because I fear attack, but when that zone is a business (like a mall) I choose to spend my money elsewhere.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #68 November 10, 2009 Quotenice job steering it back to fear. Are you afraid of facing your emotions?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #69 November 10, 2009 Quotei never hear any debate on actual solutions to your murder problem from either side be it pro or anti gun Very trueWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #70 November 10, 2009 QuoteTo Skyrad: Living in the UK you should have a clear example that gun laws do not prohibit a killer from killing, it also does not keep criminals unarmed. Actually I live in Ireland. But used to live in the UK. I'd say that the fact that people are not allowed to wander around carrying guns in the UK certainly helps to lower the gun crime rate.. Quote The US is hundreds of millions of people from different backgrounds and different cultures who get along We do a lot better then other countries who have the same diversity. If you really believe that you've proberbly been living there too long. Quote We all have nut jobs, we all have bad people. True QuoteTo say that the outlawing of guns anywhere would deter a criminal from bringing a gun or getting gun to do bad things is kind of crazy. You can't take what does or does not work in the USA to be a universal truth. QuoteTo DARK: I always find comments like yours insane. Is there no murder in your country? People never get raped? DARK makes a very good point. If you put aside your gung ho gun love for a moment and thought about what he said you'd see it actually makes sense. Also gun crime here in Ireland is mainly restricted to gang wars, civillians rarely get hit. QuoteThere is no such thing as ensuring security 100% when someone wants to do bad things. It is the price we pay for living in a free Society. Hand ringing "What can we do" shoulder shrugging may be the reason that the USA is in the state its in. I guess you could have cameras everywhere and watch every one give everyone mandatory evolutions but not only will that still not grauntee safety it is a world i would not want to be a part of. What solutions do you have to determine someone might be a threat? How would you know if someone thinks that killing Innocent people is ok or not? Your ideas are great in a fantasy world. As long as there has been man on the planet there has been a minority who chooses to hurt others. If your waiting for a day where no one ever does any thing bad to each other you should move to a Disney movie. There are too many deaths that could have been prevented.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #71 November 10, 2009 Quote Actually I live in Ireland. But used to live in the UK. I'd say that the fact that people are not allowed to wander around carrying guns in the UK certainly helps to lower the gun crime rate.. ... Also gun crime here in Ireland is mainly restricted to gang wars, civillians rarely get hit. ... If your waiting for a day where no one ever does any thing bad to each other you should move to a Disney movie. interesting sequence of quotes, all from the same article. People don't care about gun crime, they care about crime. Most people killed in the US are criminals killed by other criminals. And yes, since there are always bad people, we like having the ability to defend ourselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #72 November 10, 2009 Quote Or are you now admitting that you just pick and choose what passages to read and respond to? everyone does that - no one is getting paid to play here. You still haven't responded to post 22. And you continue to roam around the argument space, first stating that people go to schools to shoot because they have grudges there (as opposed to places where people are armed, nothing to do with the guns of course), and now more recently saying there's no credible threat at all, so why be armed? Do you have an AAD on your rig? How likely is it that you expect to fuck up badly enough to need it? 1 in 1000? 10k? 100? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #73 November 10, 2009 Quoteeveryone does that - no one is getting paid to play here. You still haven't responded to post 22. The only question in that post was: QuoteEver heard the expression: 'that and $4 will get you a cup of coffee from Starbucks?' I assumed you were being rhetorical and didn't actually expect a response. The answer however is no. In LA, it's $5. Quote Do you have an AAD on your rig? How likely is it that you expect to fuck up badly enough to need it? 1 in 1000? 10k? 100? But you're using a very bad comparison. As I pointed out with the previous fire extinguisher example, that actually IS a reasonable fear. Of the (about) 3,000 jumps I've done, about 2,000 of them were camera jumps. I've been hit in freefall and on exit more times than I have ever cared to keep track of. I have personally seen people get hit, pass out or lose altitude awareness and the only thing that kept them from being a crater was their Cypres. One guy that I knew didn't have a Cypres, got hit and was unresponsive in mid-air for a number of seconds before coming to and saving himself. I'd like to think that I would have been able to get to and pull for him had he not, but there's certainly no guarantee I would have, nor would I have attempted to below a certain altitude. Again, the odds of a person needing a Cypres far exceeds the need of a person on a campus to arm himself in case a random individual decides to go nuts and start killing people. Do the math. How many people attend high schools and colleges across the country every year? How many of those people get shot by a random guy on a killing spree? What are the odds? If a person is afraid of being killed by a random guy on a killing spree, they have an irrational fear.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #74 November 10, 2009 Quote Most people killed in the US are criminals killed by other criminals. What part of I live in Ireland are you not understanding?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 November 10, 2009 QuoteDo you wear your bulletproof vest all day long? And at night, too? Your kids (if any ?) are equipped with matching vests? Headgear for everybody? Nope, but if someone wanted to do that I would not keep them from being allowed. I believe in personal freedom."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
