75% of Young Americans Unfit for Military Duty

[nerdgirl 0]

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Indeed, but believe it or not, school environment plays a much larger role in shaping a kid's mind as they grow up even moreso than I would've given credit to. Check out the book "The Tipping Point" by Malcom Gladwell. Pretty interesting stuff.

What do you see from his thesis that was the critical tipping point? I've read Gladwell's book. I'm trying to understand your point.

He noted clearly that the school environment has a larger influence on a kid than does their home/family environment. I don't have the book in front of me, and it wasn't something I would have thought feasible, but his sources seem pretty solid.

I guess I’m still not getting how or what you’re connecting from Gladwell’s hypothesis to the thread topic and school environment. Gladwell’s book is about how seemingly small relative changes in an environment can add up to what he calls the Tipping Point, subtitled: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference. He applies an epidemiological model, calling them “social epidemics,” regarding how small changes in the right conditions can lead to an epidemic or Hush Puppies being repopularized, i.e., how seemingly small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected & unexpected factors can have disproportionate effects. And how connectors, mavens, salesmen, stickiness, and context can make an idea fly … or never get off the ground.

That’s what I was asking – what is the small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected, or unexpected factor from American schools environment that you see as having a disproportionate effect w/r/t Americans being able to qualify for military service?

I can construct an argument regarding how changes in school environment (like more students, lower caliber teachers) leads a poorer education system … but that’s not a tipping point argument necessarily.

Perhaps more interestingly —as I get to subjectively define ‘interesting’ -[at myself] –I can also steal someone else’s (economist Edward Glaeser) argument & data that investment in public education in 1900 explains why the US became a wealthy nation (& why Argentina didn’t, which was the 8th wealthiest nation in 1900).

I hypothesize new opportunities for women after WWII in the workforce such that the best-n-brightest pursued other careers, like doctors, lawyers, etc. rather than largely being socially confined to nurse, secretary, or teacher as a tipping point w/r/t education.
I can see the Vietnam War as one tipping point related to the thread topic, altho’ not that not a small thing.
I can cite former Surgeon General Kessler’s thesis on the food industry manipulating neurological responses, designing foods to induce people to eat more than they should or even want and the discovery of hydrogenation as a tipping point.

What’s the tipping point that you see w/r/t school environment as it relates to decline in qualified applicants for the military?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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More details emerge.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572351,00.html

Primary data: “75 Percent of Young Adults Cannot Join the Military: Early Education across America is Needed to Ensure National Security.”
It’s only 16 pages, with lots of figures. (I looked at those first. -[at myself]). There’s also are reports individualized to each of the 50 States, i.e., good for using to make the case to one’s federal and State Senators and Representatives to fund early education programs, e.g., Head Start. The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

Edit to add: maybe Glaeser's findings on investment in public education is more related than I initially thought.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[downwardspiral 0]

Ah I tired to find the report but failed. Thanks for posting that. After a quick look my thought was damn....no wonder my recruiter was so persistant with me.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[kelpdiver 2]

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The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

ie, stop letting teachers/schools blow off PE and recess. Even in the 80s, the quantity of PE I did varied considerably by location (I went to 8 different schools in K-12). Since then, I believe the levels have only decreased.

[nerdgirl 0]

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The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

ie, stop letting teachers/schools blow off PE and recess. Even in the 80s, the quantity of PE I did varied considerably by location (I went to 8 different schools in K-12). Since then, I believe the levels have only decreased.

Did you look at the report?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kelpdiver 2]

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Did you look at the report?

/Marg

It looked focused on mental development in schools.

But improving education (iow, supply more dollars) won't improve the physical issues unless it has very specific mandates, and penalties for ignoring them.

[georgerussia 0]

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The latest Army statistics show a stunning 75 percent of military-age youth are ineligible to join the military because they are overweight, can't pass entrance exams, have dropped out of high school or had run-ins with the law.

I do not know how it works in U.S. Army, but in Russian army being overweight is not an issue at all - a person will be back in shape in 2-6 month.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[downwardspiral 0]

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The latest Army statistics show a stunning 75 percent of military-age youth are ineligible to join the military because they are overweight, can't pass entrance exams, have dropped out of high school or had run-ins with the law.

I do not know how it works in U.S. Army, but in Russian army being overweight is not an issue at all - a person will be back in shape in 2-6 month.

It's the same in the U.S. Army I'm sure. I know it was for the USMC. "Fat bodies" were assigned to the porkchop platoon (morning pt) until they were within regs. My last couple years in I'd maintained my weight just under my max limit for my height. Of course back then it was all muscle. Now not so much.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[mnealtx 0]

Same with my unit when I was in - anyone that failed the PT test or was on the overweight program got to go with the XO on his 'morning jogs' until they were within standards.

The XO regularly ran half marathons on the weekends...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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More details emerge.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572351,00.html

Primary data: “75 Percent of Young Adults Cannot Join the Military: Early Education across America is Needed to Ensure National Security.”
It’s only 16 pages, with lots of figures. (I looked at those first. -[at myself]). There’s also are reports individualized to each of the 50 States, i.e., good for using to make the case to one’s federal and State Senators and Representatives to fund early education programs, e.g., Head Start. The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

Edit to add: maybe Glaeser's findings on investment in public education is more related than I initially thought.

/Marg

Ain't gonna happen

The children who were left behind around here could never support that. They will rag on and on and on about the evil NEA and here they are 30 years later STILL blaming those teachers for their inability to use a spell check program so they don’t sound like the complete idiots they really are.

I won't even go into the fundie American Taliban that want all their tax dollars back so they can raise their spawn at their own version of fundamentalist madrassa's

[Gawain 0]

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Indeed, but believe it or not, school environment plays a much larger role in shaping a kid's mind as they grow up even moreso than I would've given credit to. Check out the book "The Tipping Point" by Malcom Gladwell. Pretty interesting stuff.

What do you see from his thesis that was the critical tipping point? I've read Gladwell's book. I'm trying to understand your point.

He noted clearly that the school environment has a larger influence on a kid than does their home/family environment. I don't have the book in front of me, and it wasn't something I would have thought feasible, but his sources seem pretty solid.

I guess I’m still not getting how or what you’re connecting from Gladwell’s hypothesis to the thread topic and school environment. Gladwell’s book is about how seemingly small relative changes in an environment can add up to what he calls the Tipping Point, subtitled: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference. He applies an epidemiological model, calling them “social epidemics,” regarding how small changes in the right conditions can lead to an epidemic or Hush Puppies being repopularized, i.e., how seemingly small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected & unexpected factors can have disproportionate effects. And how connectors, mavens, salesmen, stickiness, and context can make an idea fly … or never get off the ground.

That’s what I was asking – what is the small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected, or unexpected factor from American schools environment that you see as having a disproportionate effect w/r/t Americans being able to qualify for military service?

I can construct an argument regarding how changes in school environment (like more students, lower caliber teachers) leads a poorer education system … but that’s not a tipping point argument necessarily.

Perhaps more interestingly —as I get to subjectively define ‘interesting’ -[at myself] –I can also steal someone else’s (economist Edward Glaeser) argument & data that investment in public education in 1900 explains why the US became a wealthy nation (& why Argentina didn’t, which was the 8th wealthiest nation in 1900).

I hypothesize new opportunities for women after WWII in the workforce such that the best-n-brightest pursued other careers, like doctors, lawyers, etc. rather than largely being socially confined to nurse, secretary, or teacher as a tipping point w/r/t education.
I can see the Vietnam War as one tipping point related to the thread topic, altho’ not that not a small thing.
I can cite former Surgeon General Kessler’s thesis on the food industry manipulating neurological responses, designing foods to induce people to eat more than they should or even want and the discovery of hydrogenation as a tipping point.

What’s the tipping point that you see w/r/t school environment as it relates to decline in qualified applicants for the military?

/Marg

You're reading too much into my statement. I wasn't trying to tie in Gladwell's overall thesis, I was citing a specific part of his book.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jgoose71 0]

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Yet when I brought it up I was called an insensitive asshole. This country is full of fat, lazy underachieving dirtbags who cry like little kids . . .

Well, on behalf of the entire DZ.com community, let me apologize. If anyone called you an insensitive asshole, they clearly didn't see the caring comments you made like the one just above.

You rag on his comment, but the truth is to fix a problem you have to identify the problem and the cause first. Sorry if the truth sometimes hurts.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[jgoose71 0]

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...My point is this, why does someone feel the need to differentiate themselves in the manner of saying, "I'm gay and I serve" versus simply saying, "I serve."...

... I didn't care about any other factors, why should they care that I have to know they are gay? Why is it so important that they have to wear that on their sleeve? This isn't hyphonated-American BS.

Note: I selectively quoted so that the part I care about doesn't get lost.

It isn't about differentiating it or wearing it on their sleeve, it's about having to hide who you really are to avoid getting thrown out.

This is actually kind of funny. I'm straight, but most of my posts here in SC this week are about gay rights. It's more of a tirade against inolerant bullies (Note intolerant, not homophobic) than anything else I guess.

Not to imply that Gawain is intolerant or a bully, just a general comment on my "gay rights" stand of late.

I'm not homophobic or biased. I have even had a couple of gay friends (though not in the military) and I have no problems with them. The problem we run into in the military, and especially in the Navy, is the close quarters, lack of privacy, and no personal space. Here is my personal stance on gays serving openly in the military:

"Gays can serve openly when we co-ed the showers! If my wet, naked ass is going to be eye-candy for some one, I need some eye-candy myself. Fair is fair."

Think on that for a while

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[nerdgirl 0]

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Indeed, but believe it or not, school environment plays a much larger role in shaping a kid's mind as they grow up even moreso than I would've given credit to. Check out the book "The Tipping Point" by Malcom Gladwell. Pretty interesting stuff.

What do you see from his thesis that was the critical tipping point? I've read Gladwell's book. I'm trying to understand your point.

He noted clearly that the school environment has a larger influence on a kid than does their home/family environment. I don't have the book in front of me, and it wasn't something I would have thought feasible, but his sources seem pretty solid.

I guess I’m still not getting how or what you’re connecting from Gladwell’s hypothesis to the thread topic and school environment. Gladwell’s book is about how seemingly small relative changes in an environment can add up to what he calls the Tipping Point, subtitled: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference. He applies an epidemiological model, calling them “social epidemics,” regarding how small changes in the right conditions can lead to an epidemic or Hush Puppies being repopularized, i.e., how seemingly small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected & unexpected factors can have disproportionate effects. And how connectors, mavens, salesmen, stickiness, and context can make an idea fly … or never get off the ground.

That’s what I was asking – what is the small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected, or unexpected factor from American schools environment that you see as having a disproportionate effect w/r/t Americans being able to qualify for military service?

I can construct an argument regarding how changes in school environment (like more students, lower caliber teachers) leads a poorer education system … but that’s not a tipping point argument necessarily.



What’s the tipping point that you see w/r/t school environment as it relates to decline in qualified applicants for the military?

You're reading too much into my statement. I wasn't trying to tie in Gladwell's overall thesis, I was citing a specific part of his book.

I asked the question because I was curious what you saw in Gladwell's work that connects to the thread topic. That's all. At first I was curious to see what it was with full expectation that there was something there. The point: that I wanted to read more on *your* thinking. (It's a compliment not a criticism.)

Now, I'm wondering if you may have read something into Gladwell's work that isn't his point ... but I'm not sure ... that's why I asked the question the 2nd time with context. Because your reply didn't make sense in the context of the work cited. (As opposed to telling you what you're doing, as you did to me: "you're reading too much into my statement".)

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Primary data: “75 Percent of Young Adults Cannot Join the Military: Early Education across America is Needed to Ensure National Security.”
It’s only 16 pages, with lots of figures. (I looked at those first. -[at myself]). There’s also are reports individualized to each of the 50 States, i.e., good for using to make the case to one’s federal and State Senators and Representatives to fund early education programs, e.g., Head Start. The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

Edit to add: maybe Glaeser's findings on investment in public education is more related than I initially thought.

Ain't gonna happen

I hope you're wrong ... but the popular vector of domestic politics does seem to suggest you're correct. Folks seem to recognize it, but there does not seem to be much forward movement to do anything. Why?

Otoh, especially w/r/t the specific data cited in the "Ready, Willing, And Unable To Serve" report (as opposed to the emphasis in the media & the discussion here), I would like to see a historical comparison on academic achievement/education adequacy of the American 18-24yo recruiting pool 50 & 100 years ago? While there are exceptions, educational and training requirements for American military personnel are increasing. Over the last 50 years, the vector is accelerating in the direction of needing folks who are smarter and more educated ... not just 'warm bodies.' As someone mentioned, in most services to advance w/in the officer ranks one must acquire a master's degree. (The caliber of some, not all, of those degrees is another subject ... and sometimes that's not the fault of the service member but demands of the institutional service or just a bunch of other things.)

In 2009 we test more than we did in 1959 or 1909; 'better' may be more subjective. Overall, 85% of adults have high school degrees (last years census data available). The highest rate ever in the history of the US. Btw 1995 and 2009, on-time graduation rates have increased (data). Places like Las Vegas have been exceptions to the general trend that includes urban schools. Which is not to imply that there are not problems w/r/t public education, I do wonder how much is a 'manufactured crisis'?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,148]

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The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

ie, stop letting teachers/school boards blow off PE and recess. Even in the 80s, the quantity of PE I did varied considerably by location (I went to 8 different schools in K-12). Since then, I believe the levels have only decreased.

Teachers don't make school policies. Teachers follow policies set by school boards.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 2]

Any person, male or female, who has ever used a locker room (or lived in a military barracks, naval vessel, etc.), who does not think s/he has already been seen naked by a gay person of the same gender, is kidding him/herself. Anyone who uses such facilities on a regular basis probably is seen naked by gay people of the same gender on a regular basis. And the world has not imploded.

[warpedskydiver 0]

The women would actually seat themselves on a bench in the shower, eat their cereal, and enjoy the view of us.

I guess it was better than watching the old betamax tapes thay had.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The top level/take-home message I took from my quick look is build more schools and invest in public education.

ie, stop letting teachers/school boards blow off PE and recess. Even in the 80s, the quantity of PE I did varied considerably by location (I went to 8 different schools in K-12). Since then, I believe the levels have only decreased.

Teachers don't make school policies. Teachers follow policies set by school boards.

sorry, not buying this one, again based on personal experience. 4th and 5th grades were in the same school district, different schools and obviously different teachers. The 4th grade one made PE a rare reward if we didn't do anything to offend that day. End result was physical activity occurred ~1 day a week. The 5th grade teacher (arguably a less fit woman than the prior year) not only had it daily, but offered varied forms that were very engaging. It did what PE is supposed to do. It could be merely coincidental with my development, but that was the first year I was developing coordination and power.

[jgoose71 0]

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Any person, male or female, who has ever used a locker room (or lived in a military barracks, naval vessel, etc.), who does not think s/he has already been seen naked by a gay person of the same gender, is kidding him/herself. Anyone who uses such facilities on a regular basis probably is seen naked by gay people of the same gender on a regular basis. And the world has not imploded.

Yes, but under the current rules I did not know I was being scoped out. Ignorance is bliss

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[GQ_jumper 4]

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Yet when I brought it up I was called an insensitive asshole. This country is full of fat, lazy underachieving dirtbags who cry like little kids . . .

Well, on behalf of the entire DZ.com community, let me apologize. If anyone called you an insensitive asshole, they clearly didn't see the caring comments you made like the one just above.

Go back and read the thread I posted, I was tactful in bringing up the topic originally and was attacked for it. Sorry but I'm only returning the respect I was shown.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Gawain 0]

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Indeed, but believe it or not, school environment plays a much larger role in shaping a kid's mind as they grow up even moreso than I would've given credit to. Check out the book "The Tipping Point" by Malcom Gladwell. Pretty interesting stuff.

What do you see from his thesis that was the critical tipping point? I've read Gladwell's book. I'm trying to understand your point.

He noted clearly that the school environment has a larger influence on a kid than does their home/family environment. I don't have the book in front of me, and it wasn't something I would have thought feasible, but his sources seem pretty solid.

I guess I’m still not getting how or what you’re connecting from Gladwell’s hypothesis to the thread topic and school environment. Gladwell’s book is about how seemingly small relative changes in an environment can add up to what he calls the Tipping Point, subtitled: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference. He applies an epidemiological model, calling them “social epidemics,” regarding how small changes in the right conditions can lead to an epidemic or Hush Puppies being repopularized, i.e., how seemingly small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected & unexpected factors can have disproportionate effects. And how connectors, mavens, salesmen, stickiness, and context can make an idea fly … or never get off the ground.

That’s what I was asking – what is the small, superficially uncorrelated/unconnected, or unexpected factor from American schools environment that you see as having a disproportionate effect w/r/t Americans being able to qualify for military service?

I can construct an argument regarding how changes in school environment (like more students, lower caliber teachers) leads a poorer education system … but that’s not a tipping point argument necessarily.



What’s the tipping point that you see w/r/t school environment as it relates to decline in qualified applicants for the military?

You're reading too much into my statement. I wasn't trying to tie in Gladwell's overall thesis, I was citing a specific part of his book.

I asked the question because I was curious what you saw in Gladwell's work that connects to the thread topic. That's all. At first I was curious to see what it was with full expectation that there was something there. The point: that I wanted to read more on *your* thinking. (It's a compliment not a criticism.)

Now, I'm wondering if you may have read something into Gladwell's work that isn't his point ... but I'm not sure ... that's why I asked the question the 2nd time with context. Because your reply didn't make sense in the context of the work cited. (As opposed to telling you what you're doing, as you did to me: "you're reading too much into my statement".)

/Marg

Good Grief Marg...did you read his book or not?

Why do I have to connect the dots for you?

His thesis as a whole does not confine his statements. In the area I was citing, Gladwell was discussing differing influences on kids (smoking, suicide and school).

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page 242...The children of smokers are more than twice as likely to smoke as the children of nonsmokers. That's a well known fact. But -- to follow Harris' logic -- that does not mean that parents who smoke around their children set an example that their kids follow. It simply means that smokers' children have inherited genes from their parents that predispose them toward nicotine addiction. Indeed studies of adopted children have shown that those raised by smokers are no more likely to end up as smokers themselves that those raised by nonsmokers. "In other words, effects of rearing vairation (eg parents' lighting up or not, or having cigarettes in the home or not) were essentially nil by the time children reached adulthood," the psychologist David Rowe writes in this 1994 book summarizing research on the question, The Limits of Family Influence. "The role of parents is a passive one -- providing a set of genes at loci relevant to smoking risk, but not socially influencing their offspring." -- Malcolm Gladwell "The Tipping Point"

To Rose and Harris, the process by which teens get infected with the smoiking habit is entirely bound up in the peer group. It's not about mimicking adult behavior, which is why teenage smoking is rising at a time when adult smoking is falling. Teenage smoking is about being a teenager...

In previous chapters in the "Power of Context", he cites further impacts of "honesty" and suicide.

Now, having said all that, my comment was in response to Quade noting that the majority of kids' time is not "at school". But that does not equate to the majority of time "with family", and as such, our kids are influenced by their environment much more than the moral imperatives set by "family". Thus, the school environment has a much greater impact than even I wish compared to the family environment.

Does this explain Gladwell's thesis as whole? No. It takes a significant component of his thesis and applies it.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[cliffwhite 0]

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Cliff I can't speak for every veteran, but I can speak on behalf of my grandfather, my father, myself, and I would just Like to say YOU ARE WELCOME . I don't like what you say, but I do like that you can say it. No thanks is necessary...

I reckon' not bein' as you,MrLicious, your father ,your fathers' father ,and even his father never fought a war for "Freedom".
Or maybe "y'all" did but you simply didn't understand the reason for the war . Certainly it wasn't "Freedom".
More than likely it was a war about economics.

Here's a little lesson for you.MrLicious, and you don't have to thank me for it, Freedom isn't won or lost at the point of a gun.
The thing about Freedom is you either know you are or you can never be. Guns, Tanks, Bombs,.. they aren't tools which guarantee or can grant Freedom. They also can't take it away.
They just decide who lives and who dies.

Blue ones, Mr. Licious,

Cliff White

2muchTruth

[warpedskydiver 0]

Please lock this thread too before I do something that you people won't like.

[pbwing 0]

c'mon....do it....you know you want to!!!!

go out in a blaze of glory!!!