Constitution

[skydived19006 4]

Looking through the thread on wire tapping, it occurred to me that some parts of the Constitution seem to be "more important" than others. Seems "privacy" issues are paramount, but the enumerated powers are passe.

Seems that anything can be justified by evoking the Interstate Commerce Clause, maybe wiretapping is an Interstate Commerce Clause issue? Just as much as health care is an Interstate Commerce Clause issue. If not from the Commerce Clause, where does the Federal Government garnish the power to confiscate the health care industry?

Maritn

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[jcd11235 0]

From Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Edit to add: I would hardly consider healthcare reform to be "confiscating the healthcare industry."

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[mnealtx 0]

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From Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Edit to add: I would hardly consider healthcare reform to be "confiscating the healthcare industry."

Sweet - so gov't can force you to buy a product, now? Is that what you're claiming?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jcd11235 0]

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From Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Edit to add: I would hardly consider healthcare reform to be "confiscating the healthcare industry."

Sweet - so gov't can force you to buy a product, now? Is that what you're claiming?

That's an interesting, albeit inaccurate interpretation of my post.

What I'm claiming is that Congress is within their Constitutional power to pass healthcare reform legislation.

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[mnealtx 0]

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That's an interesting, albeit inaccurate interpretation of my post.

What I'm claiming is that Congress is within their Constitutional power to pass healthcare reform legislation.

If the 'reform' didn't mandate purchase of a product, I'd agree with you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jcd11235 0]

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If the 'reform' didn't mandate purchase of a product, I'd agree with you.

I don't see that it makes any difference w/r/t their authority. Of course, neither your opinion nor mine matters, only the Judicial Branch's.

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[georgerussia 0]

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If the 'reform' didn't mandate purchase of a product, I'd agree with you.

You are not required to purchase anything, as you can pay a tax instead. Hopefully you agree that Congress has the authority to establish new taxes?

Technically it's pretty much the same as charity - you can donate your income, and pay no tax, or you can keep it and pay tax. However I do not see anyone here screaming about how the government mandates donations.

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[rhaig 0]

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neither your opinion nor mine matters, only the Judicial Branch's.

and that right there says so much about how this country got to where it is today.

--
Rob

[jcd11235 0]

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neither your opinion nor mine matters, only the Judicial Branch's.

and that right there says so much about how this country got to where it is today.

Such are the consequences of having our Constitution. That's how the Founding Fathers designed the system.

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[mnealtx 0]

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Technically it's pretty much the same as charity - you can donate your income, and pay no tax, or you can keep it and pay tax. However I do not see anyone here screaming about how the government mandates donations.

Stupid analogy - the gov't isn't forcing you to donate to a specific charity or be taxed.

What's next? "Buy a GM auto or be taxed equivalent to the payment on a GM auto"?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,119]

>so gov't can force you to buy a product, now?

Yep. A few examples:

Driver's license/registration (if you want to use public roads)
Pilot's license (if you want to fly your typical airplane)
Marriage license (if you want to get married)

I'm sure you can come up with loads of examples yourself.

[mnealtx 0]

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>so gov't can force you to buy a product, now?

Yep. A few examples:

Driver's license/registration (if you want to use public roads)
Pilot's license (if you want to fly your typical airplane)
Marriage license (if you want to get married)

I'm sure you can come up with loads of examples yourself.

I'm sure I could - I'm sure all of them would be CHOICES, like all the above that you list.

This healthcare bill isn't a choice, it's 'you ARE going to pay for this product'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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Stupid analogy - the gov't isn't forcing you to donate to a specific charity or be taxed.

True, it's not some specific charity - it could be any charity as long as it is approved by the government. Being approved is important part here - not all charities are tax-deductible, and a charity must follow some pretty strict guidelines to obtain and maintain such a status.

And you know what? It's pretty much the same with a health care plan. You're not required to buy a plan from a specific company - just from the list of companies approved by the government.

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What's next? "Buy a GM auto or be taxed equivalent to the payment on a GM auto"?

It could as well be "we're invading Iraq - open your wallets! You don't like it? Suck it, we don't care."

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[georgerussia 0]

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This healthcare bill isn't a choice, it's 'you ARE going to pay for this product'.

Well, unlike paying for AIG rescues and for Iraq war, you have much more choices with a healthcare bill.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[billvon 3,119]

>I'm sure I could - I'm sure all of them would be CHOICES, like all the
>above that you list.

And like healthcare. No one will be forced to take any specific option.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Looking through the thread on wire tapping, it occurred to me that some parts of the Constitution seem to be "more important" than others. Seems "privacy" issues are paramount, but the enumerated powers are passe.

Seems that anything can be justified by evoking the Interstate Commerce Clause, maybe wiretapping is an Interstate Commerce Clause issue? Just as much as health care is an Interstate Commerce Clause issue. If not from the Commerce Clause, where does the Federal Government garnish the power to confiscate the health care industry?

Maritn

You've just experienced the lightbulb that clicks on in the heads of first-semester law students who weren't already poli-sci majors as undergrads.

[mnealtx 0]

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>I'm sure I could - I'm sure all of them would be CHOICES, like all the
>above that you list.

And like healthcare. No one will be forced to take any specific option.

No, but they will have to take SOME option - whether they want to or not.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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And you know what? It's pretty much the same with a health care plan. You're not required to buy a plan from a specific company - just from the list of companies approved by the government.

And the gov't is STILL forcing you to buy (or be taxed the equivalent of buying).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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And the gov't is STILL forcing you to buy (or be taxed the equivalent of buying).

Same as charity - the gov's basically forces you to either donate, or to pay taxes on this amount. There is no option not to donate the money and not to pay taxes on those money at the same time!

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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And the gov't is STILL forcing you to buy (or be taxed the equivalent of buying).

Same as charity - the gov's basically forces you to either donate, or to pay taxes on this amount. There is no option not to donate the money and not to pay taxes on those money at the same time!

No, it's NOT the same. Since you can't seem to understand the difference, it's no use continuing this discussion with you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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No, it's NOT the same. Since you can't seem to understand the difference, it's no use continuing this discussion with you.

So could you please enlighten me and tell me the difference I apparently cannot understand? Or this is your typical chicken-out with your typical "I understand I screwed up and have nothing to reply, but I'm not man enough to admit it" message?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mnealtx 0]

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No, it's NOT the same. Since you can't seem to understand the difference, it's no use continuing this discussion with you.

So could you please enlighten me and tell me the difference I apparently cannot understand? Or this is your typical chicken-out with your typical "I understand I screwed up and have nothing to reply, but I'm not man enough to admit it" message?

I've already explained it several times - is this your typical "I can't understand what's being discussed so I'm going to bring up the same bad analogy over and over instead of admitting it" message?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[georgerussia 0]

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I've already explained it several times

The only explanation I've seen was your "the government forces you to buy it". Which was easily countered by my explanation that the government forces you to buy it no more than it forces you to donate to charities. If I do not want to donate, the government charges me more in taxes, which according to you means the government forces me to donate.

So, as you see, this is not a valid explanation. You have anything else to say?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kallend 2,150]

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From Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Edit to add: I would hardly consider healthcare reform to be "confiscating the healthcare industry."

Sweet - so gov't can force you to buy a product, now? Is that what you're claiming?

Since they already do, so what?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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So, as you see, this is not a valid explanation. You have anything else to say?

Ok, lets go with your contribution/tax deduction.

Hyptothetical: I make 20k a year, and I donate $500 to a charity. Show me how I'm going to pay $500 less tax because of that donation than I would if I didn't make the donation.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706