Belgian_Draft 0 #1 October 31, 2009 www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33565109/ns/business-autos/ To reject a contract because it has provisions that would be detrimental to a workers safety and well being are one thing, but to reject it on the belief that since Ford didn't file bankruptcy they must be doing just fine is just plain dumb and very short sighted.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #2 October 31, 2009 Ford was offering workers a $1,000 bonus if they ratified the contract. But the contract also would have frozen entry-level pay, changed some work rules and limited workers' ability to strike. Well, I'm no fan of the UAW but that was just plain dumb on the part of Ford.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #3 October 31, 2009 Which part?HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #4 October 31, 2009 Attempting to buy a vote.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #5 October 31, 2009 QuoteFord was offering workers a $1,000 bonus if they ratified the contract. But the contract also would have frozen entry-level pay, changed some work rules and limited workers' ability to strike. Well, I'm no fan of the UAW but that was just plain dumb on the part of Ford. Agreed. Any time a company is offering you short term money, you know their bean counters have figured out it's making them far more in the long run.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #6 October 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteFord was offering workers a $1,000 bonus if they ratified the contract. But the contract also would have frozen entry-level pay, changed some work rules and limited workers' ability to strike. Well, I'm no fan of the UAW but that was just plain dumb on the part of Ford. Agreed. Any time a company is offering you short term money, you know their bean counters have figured out it's making them far more in the long run. Yea, they dangle a fish most blue collar types are stupid enough to bite. My dad was a union steward and in the early 80's they offered a 3-tier pay scale, but told the journeymen they wouldn't be touching their pay. My dad said, sure they won't, they'll get monkeys in here and train them to do our jobs and do away with us.. Of course teh dumbshit American worker followed management and they did as my dad said they would and worked the top guys out. The American blue collar worker is stupid and worse yet, they hide behind the guise of tough, red-blooded American Republican. These upper R's must be laughing thier asses off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #7 October 31, 2009 QuoteAttempting to buy a vote. Yep. Pretty stupid thing to do.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #8 October 31, 2009 QuoteThe American blue collar worker is stupid My father was blue collar. My brother is blue collar. My sister is blue collar. I was blue collar for most of my career. Are you calling all of us stupid?HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #9 October 31, 2009 QuoteYea, they dangle a fish most blue collar types are stupid enough to bite. What the fuck's the matter with you? "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #10 October 31, 2009 Quote Quote Yea, they dangle a fish most blue collar types are stupid enough to bite. What the fuck's the matter with you? Wow, dude, you just made my day! I'm glad YOU had the balls to ask that. I'd probably get tossed again for another couple weeks. Fuckin' GREAT!!! HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #11 October 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe American blue collar worker is stupid My father was blue collar. My brother is blue collar. My sister is blue collar. I was blue collar for most of my career. Are you calling all of us stupid? I'm blue collar, as a generalization American blue collar workers are stupid as compared to their Western Eurpean counterparts in that they think busting unioins brings higher wages. Actually fighting for the other side not bright. Now, within that there are some people who get it and are not stupid, but the evidence is there; American unionization is dropping in teh private sector and so are wages/benefits: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2007/05/it.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #12 October 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteYea, they dangle a fish most blue collar types are stupid enough to bite. What the fuck's the matter with you? I guess I just don't love Jebus Christ as my load in savio and think GWB was the greatest pres of all time......THAT'S WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH ME. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #13 October 31, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Yea, they dangle a fish most blue collar types are stupid enough to bite. What the fuck's the matter with you? Wow, dude, you just made my day! I'm glad YOU had the balls to ask that. I'd probably get tossed again for another couple weeks. Fuckin' GREAT!!! Oh goody, you're my hero :-{} Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #14 November 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe American blue collar worker is stupid My father was blue collar. My brother is blue collar. My sister is blue collar. I was blue collar for most of my career. Are you calling all of us stupid? I'm blue collar, as a generalization American blue collar workers are stupid as compared to their Western Eurpean counterparts in that they think busting unioins brings higher wages. Actually fighting for the other side not bright. Now, within that there are some people who get it and are not stupid, but the evidence is there; American unionization is dropping in teh private sector and so are wages/benefits: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2007/05/it.html Well, you are wrong. Blue collar workers here are not stupid compared to any other part of the world. Most I know are average or above average intelligence. The decline in union membership over the last couple decades is a result of workers tiring of the unions' greed costing them jobs and money. Boeing setting up shop in South Carolina for the 787 Dreamliner is a perfect example. Obnoxious union demands and repeated strikes at their Seattle facility drove Boeing to seak out other areas more conducive to survival of the company.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #15 November 1, 2009 Quote Well, you are wrong. Blue collar workers here are not stupid compared to any other part of the world. Most I know are average or above average intelligence. Again, the diddy rule? Nothing scientific? WHat makes American blue collars more intelligent than European blue collars? In WE they get between 4 and 9 weeks vacation per year - fed law. In WE their workweek is sometimes 35 hrs per week. They get gov paid medical and if tehy strike, they almost always win. Yea, they're stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #16 November 1, 2009 Quote The decline in union membership over the last couple decades is a result of workers tiring of the unions' greed costing them jobs and money. The how do you account for higher wages and safer conditions in union states? Not to mention that these union states are usually blue states, like Washington. But you say lower wages and less safe conditions is smarter, huh? OK Quote Boeing setting up shop in South Carolina for the 787 Dreamliner is a perfect example. Obnoxious union demands and repeated strikes at their Seattle facility drove Boeing to seak out other areas more conducive to survival of the company. If you had a clue, the recent Boeing strike was induced by Boeing so they wouldn't have to pay late fees on delivery. But these obnoxious union demands, if not made, end up in more company profits and a lower standard of living for people. Do you think you can ask management to give or you have to get them over a barrel? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #17 November 1, 2009 Quote Quote Well, you are wrong. Blue collar workers here are not stupid compared to any other part of the world. Most I know are average or above average intelligence. Again, the diddy rule? Nothing scientific? WHat makes American blue collars more intelligent than European blue collars? In WE they get between 4 and 9 weeks vacation per year - fed law. In WE their workweek is sometimes 35 hrs per week. They get gov paid medical and if tehy strike, they almost always win. Yea, they're stupid Where did I say they were smarter than their European counterparts?HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #18 November 1, 2009 Quote Quote The decline in union membership over the last couple decades is a result of workers tiring of the unions' greed costing them jobs and money. The how do you account for higher wages and safer conditions in union states? Not to mention that these union states are usually blue states, like Washington. But you say lower wages and less safe conditions is smarter, huh? OK Hmmm...where did I make that assertion? Quote Boeing setting up shop in South Carolina for the 787 Dreamliner is a perfect example. Obnoxious union demands and repeated strikes at their Seattle facility drove Boeing to seak out other areas more conducive to survival of the company. If you had a clue, the recent Boeing strike was induced by Boeing so they wouldn't have to pay late fees on delivery. Really? Have any evidence to back that up or is that just a guess on your part?But these obnoxious union demands, if not made, end up in more company profits and a lower standard of living for people. I'll clue you onto something: Companies like Boeing are in business to make a profit. If they can't, they move elsewhere. That could happen to the workers in Seattle if they...oh wait, it did happen. Do you think you can ask management to give or you have to get them over a barrel? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #19 November 1, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Well, you are wrong. Blue collar workers here are not stupid compared to any other part of the world. Most I know are average or above average intelligence. Again, the diddy rule? Nothing scientific? WHat makes American blue collars more intelligent than European blue collars? In WE they get between 4 and 9 weeks vacation per year - fed law. In WE their workweek is sometimes 35 hrs per week. They get gov paid medical and if tehy strike, they almost always win. Yea, they're stupid Where did I say they were smarter than their European counterparts? What makes American blue collars as bright as WE blue collars, if I must break it down? All of your arguments lately come to semantics since you can't make a point. Again, 4-9 guaranteed fed law vacation per year, better pay, guaranteed HC; how are the workers there not brighter than us? They demand, they strike and they win. We roll over and advocate more luxury for the rich; why? Several reasons, but it is all nonsensical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #20 November 1, 2009 Quote Hmmm...where did I make that assertion? Stark inferrence that rolling over is better. Unions are bad, etc. Quote Really? Have any evidence to back that up or is that just a guess on your part? It was teh buzz in the bussiness, the one I've been in all my life. Is Boeing gonna come out and say that? No, that would be breach if they released they intentionally came out with that, but there was a schedule clause in Boeing's contract for 787 delivery that if their unions struck, they would be let out of late costs to buyers. I'lltry to dig up the bets I can, but it isn't actually going to be bragged about. Here we go: http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2008/09/04/boeing-should-let-the-union-walk.aspx There's a phrase for that If Boeing has a "force majeure" clause in its contract, a legal concept present in most well-drafted sales contracts, that could excuse its failure to perform (say, by not delivering planes when it promised to) because of events outside its control (say, a strike). Recent financial history is replete with examples of companies using force majeure to gain wiggle room on their contractual obligations. ExxonMobil (NYSE: XOM) invoked its clause in response to strikes in Nigeria in April. Bunge (NYSE: BG) used this excuse when agriculture workers struck in Argentina in March. Potash Corp. of Saskatchewan (NYSE: POT) cited strikes at three Canadian mines in raising the possibility just last month. By standing pat and allowing a strike to go forward, Boeing could conceivably save itself millions in "late fees" it would otherwise owe to its customers -- perhaps even save enough to offset the profits lost because of a work stoppage. Meanwhile, as Boeing machinists sit idle and watch their bank accounts dwindle, Boeing's subcontractors -- who by all accounts are the primary reason for production delays at the 787 project -- could continue working out the kinks in Boeing's supply chain. See, when I say something, I actually know what I'm talking about and I don't have to scurry to delete it and run; you ought to try it. Quote I'll clue you onto something: Companies like Boeing are in business to make a profit. If they can't, they move elsewhere. That could happen to the workers in Seattle if they...oh wait, it did happen. Oh good point, the American workforce should just roll over then and take even less to keep them here. See, this is where guys like Obama, the guy you claim to have voted for, , this is where they need to come in and HARSHLY PENALIZE companies for outsourcing jobs. Fuck tarriffs for incoming products, let's penalize US-based companies, companies that love our low corporate tax rate, let's tax the fuck out of them for sending out jobs. You idea of rolling over for corporate daddy is what has led us here, our European conterparts laugh at us as we call ourselves tough, then stab each other in the back as corporate America rolls in the dough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #21 November 1, 2009 Yep, all guesswork and mere opinion on your part. You are getting really easy to predict.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #22 November 1, 2009 QuoteYep, all guesswork and mere opinion on your part. You are getting really easy to predict. QuoteYep, all guesswork and mere opinion on your part. You are getting really easy to predict. Yep, all guesswork: Here we go: http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2008/09/04/boeing-should-let-the-union-walk.aspx There's a phrase for that If Boeing has a "force majeure" clause in its contract, a legal concept present in most well-drafted sales contracts, that could excuse its failure to perform (say, by not delivering planes when it promised to) because of events outside its control (say, a strike). Recent financial history is replete with examples of companies using force majeure to gain wiggle room on their contractual obligations. ExxonMobil (NYSE: XOM) invoked its clause in response to strikes in Nigeria in April. Bunge (NYSE: BG) used this excuse when agriculture workers struck in Argentina in March. Potash Corp. of Saskatchewan (NYSE: POT) cited strikes at three Canadian mines in raising the possibility just last month. By standing pat and allowing a strike to go forward, Boeing could conceivably save itself millions in "late fees" it would otherwise owe to its customers -- perhaps even save enough to offset the profits lost because of a work stoppage. Meanwhile, as Boeing machinists sit idle and watch their bank accounts dwindle, Boeing's subcontractors -- who by all accounts are the primary reason for production delays at the 787 project -- could continue working out the kinks in Boeing's supply chain. And this: http://www.twobirds.com/English/NEWS/ARTICLES/Pages/Boeing_announcement_delays_production_787.Aspx For strategic reasons Boeing has emphasised the detrimental consequences of the machinist strike and that a significant part of the announced delays in the delivery of the said aircraft is attributable to the strike. Since a strike is normally considered as a force majeure event under the aircraft purchase agreements concerned, it will therefore constitute an excusable delay. And finally, an actual contract: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/doingbiz/idscommon/ccr/s/ssm_sz_4200_01_20061103.pdf 2. Events of Force Majeure: (a) General or partial events of readiness and war; (b) Earthquake, flood or other natural physical disaster; (c) Riots, revolutions or sabotage or civil commotion; (d) US and Turkish labor strikes affecting the performance of the contractual obligations; (e) Acts or omissions of any government in its sovereign capacity, [such acts or omissions shall mean the exercise of (government and parliament) of the executive and legislative power; however, if such acts or omissions occur as a result of the instigation of the Seller and/or its subcontractors they shall not be considered as Force Majeure]; See, when I say something, I actually know what I'm talking about and I don't have to scurry to delete it and run; you ought to try it. But of course you'll be smug and consider this mountain of evidence not to establish how Boeing welcomed the strike, I mean, they were months behind and just snubbed the union, so everyone in aviation and many not in aviation know it was in Boeings; best interest to strike so they can claim events beyond their control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #23 November 1, 2009 Those clauses are common to just about every major contract between a supplier and a builder. Nothing new. Now why don't you show us evidence that Boeing caused the strike with the specific intent of avoiding late fees? You can't becaue it is just speculation on your part. Your opinion, regardless of how strong you believe in it, is not evidence of any kind. I could say that a ball player getting hit by a pitch twice in one game is intentional, but that is only speculating the same way you are.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #24 November 1, 2009 Quote Quote Well, you are wrong. Blue collar workers here are not stupid compared to any other part of the world. Most I know are average or above average intelligence. Again, the diddy rule? Nothing scientific? WHat makes American blue collars more intelligent than European blue collars? In WE they get between 4 and 9 weeks vacation per year - fed law. In WE their workweek is sometimes 35 hrs per week. They get gov paid medical and if tehy strike, they almost always win. Yea, they're stupid Funny - we seem not to have the same issues with labor riots and massive unemployment of the young - on vacation and broke between the ages of 18 and 27. All the doctors in France go on vacation at the same time and thousands die during a heat wave. So Sarkozy gets elected on the promise of goodbye gravy train. You've actually got a Nazi Party in England, dude. These parties form BECAUSE of how screwed people feel. There is nothing you have written to show me that you are out to help anybody. Rather, you are out to screw certain others. Perhaps some form of self-examination as to why you feel the need to refer to people as stupid is needed. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #25 November 1, 2009 The article author possibly over-emphasizes the non-bankruptcy issue (although I'm sure it's one factor). I think a lot of this is emotional: The workers see the president of the company making $17 million last year; and don't expect them to cry that that's a 22% reduction from the previous year. If Ford had been smart, the top execs would have pledged to work for minimum wage for a year. Perception is reality, and Ford simply failed to tap in to the mentality of the average drone in its labor force. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites