Part of why the Big Three are where they are.

[Lucky... 0]

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So why did you miss two out of three?

I didn't.

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20 degrees is the normal bank angle for a standard rate turn, but it can vary according to airspeed. Anybody who has taken an introductory flight knows that.

You asked: What is the significance of 20 degrees?

You didn't specify if you meant banks, angles or temperature. Icing starts at 20 degree farenheit. When I think aviation and I hear 20 degrees, I'm thinking more critical elements, 20 degree turns might be important for commercial piloting, but for survival, for old school non-fuel injected flyers, 20 degrees is where icing starts. My dad was a CFI who took me flying since I was 5. I answered your vague question in a correct way.

And as for vary upon airspeed, right, it's part of a formula depending upon airspeed, time and total turn degrees amount. So it's not a fixed standard. In PP training they usually teach turns of 30 degrees for most coordinated turns, esp in the pattern. People usually or often perform 45 degree turms, at least people I fly with, maybe brief 80-90 degrees.

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On short final the proper action to take if your engine fails is to just keep flying the aircraft. You are within a few seconds of touching down and chances of finding the problem and restarting are very small. Since on short final airspeed is very near stall speed the last thing you want to be doing is fidgeting around the cockpit when any small error is magnified and could easily result in a new hole in the ground.

Perhaos you can't multitask. Sorry for your passengers. Also, I'll help you with reading, BTW, I love hpw you don't post my answers. I wrote:

Actually I would simulataneously ensure I have enough altitude to make the field and check my fuel selector, other than that you're a glider. If you're short final the assumption is you're near an airfield, so your crash will be obvuous to all and help rendered soon anyway. But as with skydiving, altitude is time/life, so that is your #1 concern.


Just because you're on short final doesn't mean you have the field made, some people use power all the way in, just their flying style, esp if they want to make an early turn-off, and others come in high and burn altitude, slip, crab, etc. So short final means little, esp if you have passengers or are flying a heavier acft, you often need a small boost of power. With a loaded 172 I'll come in carrying 1500 RPM until the last moment of rotation - a 172 really isn't a true 4-place and they fly like shit with 4 aver or big guys.

So I stated I would ensure I have sufficient altitude to make the field and give my fuel selector a quick grab. Obvioulsy since you have airspeed, the prop is turning, so if you have selected one side and it's empty, switch to the other you will have power in probably 5 to 10 seconds. As well, just touch the primer to see if it sticking out, if so, push and turn.

SO to examine your so-called trick question, here it is:

If you are on short final on a normal approach and your engine quits, which do you do first a) announce MAYDAY on your radio or b) attempt to restart the engine.

And my answer: So my answer is: neither, but I would check the fuel selctor, fuel primer to see if it walked out, they say that can cause fuel blockage - never seen it.

And that was right, Neither. Doing a cursory touch of the primer and fuel selector isn't trying to restart the engine. And to go back to my other part of teh answer: Actually I would simulataneously ensure I have enough altitude to make the field and check my fuel selector, other than that you're a glider.

SO that was my answer, NEITHER, I would check my altitude, proximity to the field, etc and give a cursory touch of the fuel selector and primer. But you want to call it wrong even tho I stated niether a) announce MAYDAY on your radio or b) attempt to restart the engine.


My instructors always told me to check my fuel no matter what if the engine quits. Now, that doesn't mean to go into some big investigation of it unless the situation warrants it, but within 1 second I can reach down and touch the selector and and either touch the primer or eye it. Short final can still mean you're 1/2 way between the base-to-final turn and touchdown, so you could be well short of the fence at this point and might need power to make the field. I think it's stupid to not spend 1 second throwing your right hand down for a quick touch while you drop a eyeball down for 1/2 second to look at the primer. It's your call, I pray for your passengers. Now if I'm flaring and I sense a power drop, I don;t care about it at that point, but short final is usually short of teh fence, so you may well need power, but you have to look at the situation and react accordingly. If I've made the fence and the strip, I'm a lot less worried about power, but again, short final doesn't mean that.

BTW, thx for reminding me, I'm redoing a 1956 C-182 that has been sitting for 10 years+, I need to reseal the fuel selector before we put the interior back together. I knew there was a purpose to me teaching you about aviation.

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But you did ok on the P-factor, but then that is one that can easily be found with google. Even though p-factor is only one phenomenon that is affected by direction of rotation I felt sorry for you and gave you full credit for the question.

I knew tons more about flying, prrobably before you were born, kid. You didn't know of the counter-rotating props on twins or the few degrees of turn built into the tubular engine mounts, you just steered clear of that.

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Final grade: 33%
If you are any kind of pilot you would do well to take a couple days to review the basics. It shouldn't take long. After all, it's all pretty elementary.

Only if you ignore my answers. BTW, me teaching you about aviation is on the house. You have 15 minutes of aviation experience as compard to me, single engine land, VFR, probably 60 flight hours in a 172 SP that does it all for you, you don;t even have carb heat to contend with. I've rebuilt carb boxes on several occassions and you want us to buy your 15 minutes of avaition experience. You never did give us your occupation, and no, I don't want fries with that.

[Lucky... 0]

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Blind riveting.

Nice guess, but not hardly. Blind riveting is a 1-step process, you have no chance to "draw" the material and reshoot.

Swell and draw is used for compression riveting where the laminates are not pulled together and for whatever reason you cannot clamp or cleco them together. So you insert a rivet, swell it up by driving it a little, then placing the bucking bar right next to the tail of the rivet and VERY LIGHTLY tapping it so as to use the tension of the rivet tail in the hole to temp secure the laminates together. Then you resume shooting, repeat if neccessary. This is a trick of journeymen acft assemblers and is not on Google, hence I have exposed your skill and knowledge.

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In what way is dry ice used in the assembly of aircraft, what can be the result if procedure is not followed, and why. Details please.

That's a very vague question, for all I know the sparky's use it. We use dry ice and liquid nitrogen for a few things. We have icebox rivets where teh rivets are purchased that way and we havee to keep them way
Another use of liquid notrogen was on the B-1, we had huge cylinders of LN and soaked the wing pivot pins in there, then we placed heat blankets on the bushings in the wings. Lined em up and hoisted the pin into the bushings, the pin was tapered so if we weren't quick the pin would thaw and climb out.

I've heard of using it to clean molds before the medium drys, but I've never done that. It's possible they could use it for windowns as well. There might be abunch of uses of any property that is extremely cold and doesn't melt real fast and doesn't leave a liquid.

So your question is vague, there could be numerous uses in aviation, all of which you are unaware of but will pretend to know and then pop up with some other obscure use.

Here's mine, you can google chem mill, so that's no big deal. Tell me what parts are usually chem milled as with commercial acft and why.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Icing starts at 20F? Wrong. Try again. Better yet, find out before it gets you.

PP training is usually done in aircraft that gross around 1200-1800 lbs and cruise between 120-140 knots. Those figures put a standard rate turn (for small aircraft that is 180/minute) at a bank angle of 20 degrees, +- a couple. I don't know what kind of aircraft would need a bank of 45 to accomplish an SRT, let alone 80-90.

If you are on short final and your engine quits, I hope I'm not in there with you. To do anything but put 100% of your concentration on putting the plane on the runway at that point is irresponsible and adds unneeded risk to the flight. I don't know how far out you call short final, but I don't consider it until i can make the runway no matter what happens short of the aircraft falling apart in flight.
Since there is quiet a variation in who considers what to be short final, I'll give you credit (and you DID say neither, which is correct)
I am vary familiar with counter rotating props and offset thrust lines.

Blind rivets are set by a draw and swell process. If you have other processes that are called the same, then fine. BTW, I would be VERY interested to know how you can possibly install a blind rivet in one step. If you have a method you should copyright it...you could make a fortune!!

I am no kid, I will be celebrating 1/2 century of being on this planet in a couple years.

Would you care to finish telling me what affect the direction of prop rotation has on the takeoff handling of an aircraft? You stated p-factor, but that is only one influence of several.

Dry ice. You have a good start at answering. It is used to keep rivets very cold until they are ready to install. Now tell me why they have to be kept cold and what happens when they are not. Saying "they get brittle" isn't detailed enough. You need to tell me why they get brittle.

Or you can just forget the 20 questions and post something that actually relates to the OP.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,109]

>To do anything but put 100% of your concentration on putting the plane on
>the runway at that point is irresponsible and adds unneeded risk to the flight.

Well, to be fair, the #1 priority is to fly the airplane. But as long as you can do that, then doing other things to enhance survivability (verify fuel selector in correct position, verify fuel pump on in low wings, opening doors if bad landing imminent etc) is a good thing as well.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>To do anything but put 100% of your concentration on putting the plane on
>the runway at that point is irresponsible and adds unneeded risk to the flight.

Well, to be fair, the #1 priority is to fly the airplane. But as long as you can do that, then doing other things to enhance survivability (verify fuel selector in correct position, verify fuel pump on in low wings, opening doors if bad landing imminent etc) is a good thing as well.

Well, to be fair, i did concede that "short final" can and does mean different things to each pilot/aircraft combination. To me, flying 152/172s, my short final is that...SHORT!! For me it is the 200-300 feet before touchdown. In that area if the engine quits there is not going to be time to restart and it would not be needed anyway unless I am on a very, very low approach. Like you said, first responsibility is to fly the aircraft. No sense doing things that can possibly distract from that and would, most likely, have no influence on the outcome. Get the plane on the ground safe. Once it's down and stopped, then the troubleshooting can begin.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Icing starts at 20F? Wrong. Try again. Better yet, find out before it gets you.

I love neo-con answers; better look it up. Liberals most often post support. http://www.ece.okstate.edu/old/abet/Assessment/Program%20Level/Capstone%20Reports/CarburetorIcingRiskDetectionSystem.pdf

Page 14 has a graph and there is all kinds of text to support that. Faa stats and data - pretending that you can understand it.

And:

http://helicopterflight.net/icing.htm

It is often taught that carburetor icing occurs at any temperature between +20 and +70 degrees F, with visible moisture present. The problem with that teaching is that visible moisture is not necessary for carburetor icing to occur. 50 percent relative humidity is plenty for carburetor icing, and you cannot see that.

You really are so easy. So your lame ambiguous question of what 20 means to general aviation. Uh, carb icing is far more important than some sissy 20 degree turn, esp since that a rough guideline and part of a larger equation. Carb icing; 20 is gospel; been taught that way for a long time.

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PP training is usually done in aircraft that gross around 1200-1800 lbs and cruise between 120-140 knots. Those figures put a standard rate turn (for small aircraft that is 180/minute) at a bank angle of 20 degrees, +- a couple. I don't know what kind of aircraft would need a bank of 45 to accomplish an SRT, let alone 80-90.

You're talking training more for commercial license where that is necessary, PP training is more about survival and 30 degrees is a typical banked turn taught. My dad was a CFI for years.

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If you are on short final and your engine quits, I hope I'm not in there with you.

Don't worry, I won;t let a person near me in the acft that is a so-called pilot and isn't aware that iciing is most prevalent around 20F.

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To do anything but put 100% of your concentration on putting the plane on the runway at that point is irresponsible and adds unneeded risk to the flight.

To spend 1 second doing a touch of the fuel selector when the runway may not be made is a good idea. Also, using your scenario, you are aware that you lost power, meaning you had at least a little throttle in play, so that means you probably need it. I didn't say you should look down at it, dink around with it, fumble with it, but esp in a 172 if you're left seat, your right hand is on the throttle, you could drop it in easily a second to feel the "arrow" pointed fwd. Short final can mean a lot of different things, but in my world it doesn't mean over the fence yet, so a punch of power could be the diff.

Either way, you asked if I would call for mayday or try to restard teh engine, I declared neither; recall what I wrote?

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I don't know how far out you call short final, but I don't consider it until i can make the runway no matter what happens short of the aircraft falling apart in flight.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS341US341&defl=en&q=define:short+final&ei=To_vSoyfD4iYMaK2oI4H&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAsQkAE

the last minute or so of an aircraft's flight path as it approaches an airfield or LZ.

Do you still feel brilliant? Last minute? As I say, short final is not over they fence yet, but of course you're right and everyone else is wrong. Yes, I would make a quick check for gas as I decided if I would make the field, if not, find another place to land. I am right, just as carb icing is most prevalent at 20F. You just look silly.

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Since there is quiet a variation in who considers what to be short final, I'll give you credit (and you DID say neither, which is correct)

Oh thank you god of 15 minutes of aviation.

I am vary familiar with counter rotating props and offset thrust lines.

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Yea, ever since I taught you.

***Blind rivets are set by a draw and swell process.

Show me any source for that. Explain how the material is drawn and how the rivet is swollen. You can luck out and have it play, but if the shank swells and grbs teh laminates, you have a gapper. With blind riveting you need to have the laminates together or you could gap between them. NOW, TELL ME THE VARIOUS TYPES OF BLIND RIVETS. BTW, I JUST SOLD A SET OF 7 OLYMPIC RIVET SET HEADS THE OTHER DAY, WHAT ARE THEY. HINT: do a google. How do diff types of blind rivets draw?

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If you have other processes that are called the same, then fine.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I've been in aviation since 83, specialize in sheet metal since 89; ar eyou trying to teach me something?

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BTW, I would be VERY interested to know how you can possibly install a blind rivet in one step. If you have a method you should copyright it...you could make a fortune!!

You mean patent it? If you're talking the drilling process, etc, yea, but I was strictly talking the installation where you load the rivet, stick it in the hole and pull; the actual process of installing is 1 step: pull the trigger. Now you'll break it down to 6 steps for theatric value. You can break down wiping your ass to 15 steps if you want, installing a blind rivet is 1 step. You get 1 chance and you can't go back for more; it's good or it's bad.

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I am no kid, I will be celebrating 1/2 century of being on this planet in a couple years.

About where I am, I don;t expect anything but a kid to walk me down my lifelong career and try to school me.

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Would you care to finish telling me what affect the direction of prop rotation has on the takeoff handling of an aircraft? You stated p-factor, but that is only one influence of several.

P Factor is a paraphrasation of the total effect. You have torque effect trying to roll the acft left, P FActor trying to yaw the acft left. I'm sure we can break it down to a science from there, but that is the essence of it. And of course it is most noticeable at low speeds with full throttle.

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Dry ice. You have a good start at answering. It is used to keep rivets very cold until they are ready to install. Now tell me why they have to be kept cold and what happens when they are not. Saying "they get brittle" isn't detailed enough. You need to tell me why they get brittle.

Brittle? You are the only person who brought in "brittle." You act as tho I stated it. I wrote, "hard," the rivets are kept cold to stay workable, if they warm tehy get hard, hence the name, "icebox rivets," In fact I will go back to show what I wrote in the post where i answer you the first time:

Did you miss my passage the first time? I didn't write, "brittle." You did.

We have icebox rivets where teh rivets are purchased that way and we havee to keep them way We alos make our own if we have a saltbath that's at ~1,000 degrees. We put rivets in a basket, submerge the basket for 30 mins, take tehm out, quench them and put them on ice. They will be useable until we let them thaw. They are still useable, but a lot harder. We use this process for "D" rivets and harder. If you have to pound the shit out of the airframe to drive a rivet that can cause damage, so to ease the hitting you use icebox rivets.


I can't believe that a kid like you is acting as if you are teching me a thing about sheetmetal. Kid, I will post pics of the 182 I'm rebuilding for a customer. Wings off, I installed Flint tanks at wing station 100-136 instead of out at the tips per engineering. Maybe if you're nice I'll post pics of the Chieftain I reskinned after its 2nd belly-in. Fabbed the keels, frames, and skind from scratch.

Here's one for ya, how do you form parts from raw material if they have compound shapes? What material type, what otehr processes. HINT: the compounds are such that you can't use typical 2024 T-3, 7075 T-6, so what do you use?

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Or you can just forget the 20 questions and post something that actually relates to the OP.

I feel bad for you, you look silly and you're running. Now tell me about chem milling. Address the carb ice - 20 degrees. You just look silly. BTW, what is your profession.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Carb ice starts at 20F?
According to this chart, published by the FAA, it starts at -20C. (thats about 0F)
Best hit the books, Mr. Knowledge.

Yes, the rivets get hard when they get warm. Which also cause them to become too brittle for reliable installation since they are made of, generally, 2017 or 2024 aluminum, both of which are precipitation hardening alloys. They are annealed first, then placed on dry ice to slow the precipitation of the nucleats. Time is limited before they must be annealed agian or the result is an aircraft held together with rivets that are fractured when the shop head is formed. Not a good thing and it has happened in industry by A&P mechanics who thought they knew everything.

Blind rivets. Rivet puller is placed over the rivet pin and the rivet pin is drawn into the rivet body causein it to swell. If that is not how a blind rivet works, then I've been doing it wrong.
Oh shit...I know I am because, according to you, there is only one step!

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I've been in aviation since 83, specialize in sheet metal since 89; ar eyou trying to teach me something?

You're the young pup, buddy. I got ya beat by more than ten years!

***Here's one for ya, how do you form parts from raw material if they have compound shapes? What material type, what otehr processes. HINT: the compounds are such that you can't use typical 2024 T-3, 7075 T-6, so what do you use?

English wheels are great for forming 3003, 5052, 6061, etc. Which alloy to use depends upon how much cold working it will recieve, where it will be used, desired corrosion resistence, etc. But, at times lacking a wheel, sandbags and leather paddles do an acceptable job but its hard to beat a wheel for planishing out a weld.

So, now that we have established that you are an aircraft mechanic, we have also established that you know no more about what decisions were made behind closed doors at Boeing than you do about the stock market.
I find it very interesting that, being blue collar, you called blue collar workers stupid. It's sad to see a man have such a low opinion of himself.

Have a nice day.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Carb ice starts at 20F?
According to this chart, published by the FAA, it starts at -20C. (thats about 0F)
Best hit the books, Mr. Knowledge.

The chart I provided, page 14, shows serious icing starts at 20F to 80F http://www.ece.okstate.edu/old/abet/Assessment/Program%20Level/Capstone%20Reports/CarburetorIcingRiskDetectionSystem.pdf

Post your data. I also posted at least 1 other data ref that states 20F is when icing is most susceptable; that is the standard.

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Yes, the rivets get hard when they get warm. Which also cause them to become too brittle for reliable installation since they are made of, generally, 2017 or 2024 aluminum, both of which are precipitation hardening alloys. They are annealed first, then placed on dry ice to slow the precipitation of the nucleats. Time is limited before they must be annealed agian or the result is an aircraft held together with rivets that are fractured when the shop head is formed. Not a good thing and it has happened in industry by A&P mechanics who thought they knew everything.

And that's what I said from step 1. Unlike you, I have done this 20 years ago, you never. Curious how I respond just that and you act as tho you're saying something new - you still look silly.

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Blind rivets. Rivet puller is placed over the rivet pin and the rivet pin is drawn into the rivet body causein it to swell. If that is not how a blind rivet works, then I've been doing it wrong.
Oh shit...I know I am because, according to you, there is only one step!

Nice cut-n-paste. That's not the same as the process of swelling and drawing a rivet. In your little office world that might be, but NO ONE in the field refers to swelling and drawing a blind rivet; no publication, no person, no one. I would be fired if I went to a shop and suggested I swell and draw a Cherrymax . They would think I'm some kind of fucking newb. If you ever shot a rivet, I could call you a newb, now you're a pre-newb.

And as I said, you will take a 1-step operation and drag it to 50. It's hillarious that a white collar desk rider theinks he can tell a lifelong acft mech, FAA lic mech w/IA how shit goes.

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You're the young pup, buddy. I got ya beat by more than ten years!

You're my age and you have 10 more years, meaning you started at 7 or 8. Yiou can't accept defeat, can you?

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English wheels are great for forming 3003, 5052, 6061, etc. Which alloy to use depends upon how much cold working it will recieve, where it will be used, desired corrosion resistence, etc. But, at times lacking a wheel, sandbags and leather paddles do an acceptable job but its hard to beat a wheel for planishing out a weld.

Nice google, obviously a cut-n-paste, but you are so far off on your guess. I've seen guys use an English wheel like 3 times. On big skins we might, but usually they come in hydroformed. But still, the same applies to them. Oh, and your material types: 3003, 5052, 6061. They're a joke. If you need a part welded you would use 6061, but the other aluminums are not used today and haven't been in major acft manufaturing for some time if ever.

We use 2024 T-3, 7075 T-6 for 90% of the aluminum needs. But what you were supposed to google and missd was that when forming compunds where you can't form with a wheel, which is almost never used, you use 2024-O or 7075-O. "O" material is not hardened, it very malleable, even at .100 thickness. So you make forming blocks, perhaps drill a tooling hole if needed, then form the O material over the blocks or presses as it were. The you heat threat it by saltbath, which has been done away with, now tehy use an oven to heat the material for 24 hours, quench and let harden for 24 hours usually. So you missed that too. I knew you would because you can't google these.

Oh and the chem mill? Where's that? You couldn't google it successfully so you ran?

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So, now that we have established that you are an aircraft mechanic, we have also established that you know no more about what decisions were made behind closed doors at Boeing than you do about the stock market.

Oh why the stock market? How did that enter? Care to support? If we play your way, it recovered 75 pts today. You can't explain the jump to 10k, how do you explain the staying at 9800? Isn't it supposed to dive, according to you?

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I find it very interesting that, being blue collar, you called blue collar workers stupid. It's sad to see a man have such a low opinion of himself.

I'm calling blue collar workers stupid for being pro-company when it comes to labor disputes.

Really weak try at the parts forming question, I expected you to find a better cut-n-paste than that.

BTW, you must be proud of your occupation to post it.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Actually, i was fishmouthing tubing and welding it when i was
www.faa.gov/ats/afss/newyork/ENROUTE.htm
There ye go. You said icing. You never said anything about the severity of icing.

Yeah, like you know about precip hardening of aluminum. Give me a break.

No cut-n-paste here. All from experience.
BTW, I have substantial hearing loss in my right ear from bucking rivets for many years, often with no ear protection for "just these two".

Sorry you aren't familiar with an English wheel. They are really handy to have in a shop since hydroforming is a process most repair shops don't have the room for or the cash to afford to have in house. There is more than one way to skin a cat, I gave you two.

English wheel swre MADE for forming compound curves. You obviously have very little knowledge of shop techniques.

If I needed a part formed and welded there are several alloys to choose from. Alloy selection depend upon application. To say "I wouyld use this alloy" without knowing where and how it is to be used is ignorance at it's best.

I used chemical milling one time for clearencing the spur gears in an oil pump I made for a friend. It is not a practice that is used much for many reasons.

I have posted my occupation in other threads but if you must know I am an engineer. I have a BSME but that was many years ago and am now more of a general engineer. I work on a lot of different projects but specialize in none.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

http://www.faa.gov/.../newyork/ENROUTE.htm

Since you are nevr able to construct a complete argument, I will once again for you.

From your source:

Carburetor Ice - Three categories of carburetor ice are:

•Impact ice formed by impact of moist air at temperatures between 15-32°F on airscoops, throttle plates, heat valves, etc. Usually forms when visible moisture such as rain, snow, sleet, or clouds are present. Most rapid accumulation can be anticipated at 25°F.

•Fuel ice forms at and downstream from the point that fuel is introduced when the moisture content of the air freezes as a result of the cooling caused by vaporization. It generally occurs between 40-80°F, but may occur at even higher temperatures. It can occur whenever the relative humidity is more than 50%.

•Throttle ice is formed at or near a partly closed throttle valve. The water vapor in the induction air condenses and freezes due to the venturi effect cooling as the air passes the throttle valve. Since the temperature drop is usually around 5°F, the best temperatures for forming throttle ice would be 32-37°F although a combination of fuel and throttle ice could occur at higher ambient temperatures.

And I said 20 to 70-80ish, right inline with what your source states; yea, ya really got me there. Dude, you're posting data to support me. Are you OK?

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There ye go. You said icing. You never said anything about the severity of icing.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE CHART ASSUMES 100% RELATIVE HUMIDITY, so that chart is for flying thru a rain storm, very abstract. Neo-cons can't make a point w/o being abstract.

So you're trying to find an out with light icing, which isn't considered dangerous and even the FAA states: Caution - light icing over a prolonged period may become serious.

So they don't consider it immediately important. Again, carb icing is most susceptable between 20 and 70 degrees F, you asked about 20 degrees, I gave that, you had some weak 20 degree turn that was not really a fixed degree turn anyway, now you're running and trying to be obscure with: "There ye go. You said icing. You never said anything about the severity of icing." Using obscure and abstract argumentation is desperation; icing is most susceptable from 20-70F. Light icing in and of itself means nothing, the FAA says as much.

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Actually, i was fishmouthing tubing and welding it when i was

Lose your train of thought? Did the cherry fall off and burn you? What happened?

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No cut-n-paste here. All from experience.

And you've never told me what kind of acft, not once. I just find your BS unbelievable. Post places worrked and acft type.

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BTW, I have substantial hearing loss in my right ear from bucking rivets for many years, often with no ear protection for "just these two".

I never wear hearing prot and I can hear fine. POST ACFT TYPE AND PLACE WORKED.

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Sorry you aren't familiar with an English wheel. They are really handy to have in a shop since hydroforming is a process most repair shops don't have the room for or the cash to afford to have in house. There is more than one way to skin a cat, I gave you two.

Yea, that's why you buy skins that Boeing has already hydroformed.

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English wheel swre MADE for forming compound curves. You obviously have very little knowledge of shop techniques.

Who said they weren't? Post a quote.

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If I needed a part formed and welded there are several alloys to choose from. Alloy selection depend upon application. To say "I wouyld use this alloy" without knowing where and how it is to be used is ignorance at it's best.

6061 is considered the best aluminum alloy for welding. It's pretty much a standard, but if you were in the trade, you would know that.

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I used chemical milling one time for clearencing the spur gears in an oil pump I made for a friend. It is not a practice that is used much for many reasons.

I'm talking with acft parts, airframe to be more specific, and it is used constantly and today. Which parts? What part and why?

- What aspect do airframes use to stop acft skins from tearing if they start. Google might help you there.

- What unique feature do Hi-Loks have over other fasteners?

- Also, what types of blind fasteners are out there; I gave you the Olympic fastener, as I told you of the heads I just sold. I gave you Cherrymax. List more. List major diffs.

- What is the difference between Nas1097AD_-_ and MS20426AD_-_?

- You didn't even touch this: We use 2024 T-3, 7075 T-6 for 90% of the aluminum needs. You aren't aware of that, are you?

- No comment here: Oh, and your material types: 3003, 5052, 6061. They're a joke. As Isaid, some 6061 is used, the other types, if ever use, are so obscure it's not worth mentioning.

- Obviously never heard of this: But what you were supposed to google and missd was that when forming compunds where you can't form with a wheel, which is almost never used, you use 2024-O or 7075-O. "O" material is not hardened, it very malleable, even at .100 thickness

If you need to cold work a part that is a 90 degree angle, you need to create a simple radius on one edge, while the other stays 90, what process do you use; what tool? For example, the keel beem I made for that Chieftain, they were 7.5 feet long. from teh spar to the nose and I cold formed them in 1 piece, what tool and process did I use? Remember, they're 90 degree angles, but this 7.5 ft long angle follows the curvature of teh bottom of the fuselage.

I don't see anything of the "O" material I was speaking of, using forming blocks. Must be a new concept to you.

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I have posted my occupation in other threads but if you must know I am an engineer. I have a BSME but that was many years ago and am now more of a general engineer. I work on a lot of different projects but specialize in none.

Appaerntly, you don't know processes that well. Of course if you ever worked acft, you would know the engineer is our bitch, we build it and they draw pictures to make it legal. So what do you do now? If you were really motivated you would become an FAA DER, you could retire in 10 years.

I'll photobucket pics of that Flint tank installation I put at wing sta 100-136, that was my engineering and workmanship, the engineer (DER) is drawing it to make it legal.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Uh, Mr. Knowledge, where did I say i worked in aviation? I didn't.

I'm sorry you have such a bad understanding of the conditions under which carb ice can form. You said it starts at 20F. That is wrong. I provided documantation from the FAA to show that carb ice can form almost 20 degrees lower than that. You said carb ice, you didn't say how much or the severity of it.

I am familiar with all alloys used in aircraft construction and most aerospace alloys. Too bad you are only familiar with a handfull of the more common ones. Some of the more advanced alloys are very interesting, espcially the Al-Li alloys that cannot be welded by most fusion processes yet the new shuttle tanks are made from them. It may be news to you but those alloys you mentioned are used in other industries as well.
I think we have played this little game of 20 questions long enough since you still haven't answered one of my first ones concerning prop rotation.
I won't bother answering any more questions you have posed since when I do you either accuse me of googling for an answe, cutting and pasting, or you claim you taught me. Yeah, right.

Now, do you have anything pertaining to the OP?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Uh, Mr. Knowledge, where did I say i worked in aviation? I didn't.

You wrote: BTW, I have substantial hearing loss in my right ear from bucking rivets for many years, often with no ear protection for "just these two".

So is it a hobby? You don't get hearing damage from 1 or 2 times. Dude, your facade has fallen apart a long time ago. Many years of bucking rivets? What type acft?

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I am familiar with all alloys used in aircraft construction and most aerospace alloys. Too bad you are only familiar with a handfull of the more common ones.

I'm familiar with the ones that are used from Cessna's to the 747, scarebus, etc. I don't live in a virtual world where everything I know comes off teh net, I perform these fabrications, repairs, etc.

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Some of the more advanced alloys are very interesting, espcially the Al-Li alloys that cannot be welded by most fusion processes yet the new shuttle tanks are made from them.

So were you with Rockwell on the SHuttle? I worked teh B-1 and a lot of guys were there from the shuttle. Quit hiding behind the fence and state your experience. Again, you have to be obscure with your internet research.

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I think we have played this little game of 20 questions long enough since you still haven't answered one of my first ones concerning prop rotation.

I answered:

P-factor. I think Mooneys and some other acft have the engine mounts fabbed so the engine actually has a couple degrees of turn. High end twin acft like Beech have counter-rotatating, the unusual rotation is real expensive and rare to find parts for. I'm an AP/IA/PP. This is rudamentary.


Then that wasn't comprehensive enough for you:

P Factor is a paraphrasation of the total effect. You have torque effect trying to roll the acft left, P FActor trying to yaw the acft left. I'm sure we can break it down to a science from there, but that is the essence of it. And of course it is most noticeable at low speeds with full throttle.

There was your answer on post #56 - you must not read the entire post.

You're done, I answerd every question and you're done with mine cause you're stuck; think no one sees that?

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I won't bother answering any more questions you have posed since when I do you either accuse me of googling for an answe, cutting and pasting, or you claim you taught me. Yeah, right.

I need an emoticon for crying, so here's the closest . You won't answer any questions because I stuck you. Look, 20 years of acft sheetmetal is fairly specialized, but you stuck it out there and lost.

Here's anothr that came to me, you can google, "quackenbush" so what is the primary feature of that drill and where would it be used? You might be able to google the answer,but it might take a little insight.

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Now, do you have anything pertaining to the OP?

Right, run back and get off this line of questioning YOU STARTED that has bit you in the ass.

Oh and your lame swell and draw with blind fasteners, you say the the shank draws up and the shaft swells, altho true, never is it refered to as that in the industry. Even if it were, it would be a draw and swell, wouldn't it? Once again, your scared, weak, lame attempts to scramble around and find an answer are ridiculous. you don't go into another man's world knowing nothing and try to run the wheel.

And your icing; if you have a 100% rel humid and a 20 degree dew point light, irrelevant icing *might* be present at 0F.

OK, welcome to the real world, pilots are often overloaded, so they look for generalizations and not some specific, obscure, remote improbability in regard to flying, they look for major probabilities. Icing is most prevalent from 20-70F when the humidity is > 50%; that is the rule of thumb. Now is it possible you *might* encounter an alien spaceship while flying over Roswell and at the same time ice up in 10% rel humid at 80 degrees? Suuuuuuuuuure, why not, just not likely so you turn your attention to things that are likely. Just keep doing your lazy, coordinated 20 degree turns tho, just don't do em in the pattern or someone's gonna fly up your ass.

Hell, Bill politely shut you down on your short final BS. Try that on a checkride or a BFR telling the DFE or the CFI that you won't check fuel on engine failure. Unless I was basically at rotation to land, I would always give at least a quick check for fuel selector position. You just look silly.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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So is it a hobby? You don't get hearing damage from 1 or 2 times. Dude, your facade has fallen apart a long time ago. Many years of bucking rivets? What type acft?

Aliuminum panels on semi-trailers

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I'm familiar with the ones that are used from Cessna's to the 747, scarebus, etc. I don't live in a virtual world where everything I know comes off teh net, I perform these fabrications, repairs, etc.

With only 2 or 3 exception I have worked with, at one time or another, either in research or industry every alloy either of us have posted here and many more. That's hands-on work, not virtual.

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So were you with Rockwell on the SHuttle?

Nope. Never said I was.

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P Factor is a paraphrasation of the total effect. You have torque effect trying to roll the acft left, P FActor trying to yaw the acft left. I'm sure we can break it down to a science from there, but that is the essence of it. And of course it is most noticeable at low speeds with full throttle.

You're still not getting it. The question was how the direction of rotation of the prop influence takeoff handling of an aircraft. Let me spell it out for you: If you take a prop engine aircraft and change the direction of rotation of the engine (and swap out the prop for one made for that rotation), what effects will that have on the takeoff handling and why? P-factor is only one and you ahven't even come close to the essence of it yet.

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Hell, Bill politely shut you down on your short final BS. Try that on a checkride or a BFR telling the DFE or the CFI that you won't check fuel on engine failure. Unless I was basically at rotation to land, I would always give at least a quick check for fuel selector position. You just look silly.

Bill and I agreed that "short final" means different things to different pilots. What I consider short final is at a point where the aircraft will make the runway no matter what happens short of a wing falling off. In that case there is no time and little use in trying to restart the engine. Best move is to just fly the aircraft and get it down safe, worry about troubleshooting later. Sorry if you don't like it but that's the way i was taught by a retired pilot with Korea and Vietnam F-86 and F-104 experience. So, if you don't mind terribly, I will take his advice over yours. Oh, btw, he also taught the attitude of "screw the charts, just remember that carb ice can happen in almost any weather conditions". Even at -20C.
Now, if you want to call three miles out "short final", then by all means have at it.

So, are you going to address the OP or keep making assumptions based on things you know nothing about?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Aliuminum panels on semi-trailers

Yea, same as acft You're a regular Rosey the Riveter

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With only 2 or 3 exception I have worked with, at one time or another, either in research or industry every alloy either of us have posted here and many more. That's hands-on work, not virtual.

Love how you comprehensively state all you know. You saw it in a chart on teh way to your BSME, so you're an expert I work with it using my hands, I understand the properties of each, max bend radiuses per gauge, etc. I don't live in a chart world.

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Nope. Never said I was.

Oh, you just googled some Space Shuttle materials, ok.

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You're still not getting it. The question was how the direction of rotation of the prop influence takeoff handling of an aircraft. Let me spell it out for you: If you take a prop engine aircraft and change the direction of rotation of the engine (and swap out the prop for one made for that rotation), what effects will that have on the takeoff handling and why? P-factor is only one and you ahven't even come close to the essence of it yet.

I see, done with the questions, but for yours. Dude, you can't even guess anymore and I haven't even but scraped the surface of my knowledge. You knew zero about "O" material.

You use a little right rudder to compensate for P Factor, is that so brilliant and deep? If you have counter-rotating, as I brought in, you won't need it. If the motor mount is canted you might not need any or much. Also, there can be a tendancy for the acft to roll to the left in response to the torque, so you might have to input a little right aileron, but you never notice it as you do the rudder, IMO. If you reversed the direction of rotation of the engine and put an opposite-directioned screw on there, you would have to input left rudder and left ailoron, theoretically.

There's your answer in deeper fashion. In a PP sense, P factor is sufficient. If you say P Fatcor at any airport, it's like ground effect or any other general term; people get it - not you tho, you want to make a thesis out of it to try t make people think you're brilliant.

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Bill and I agreed that "short final" means different things to different pilots.

No, Bill politely said, WTF?

Well, to be fair, the #1 priority is to fly the airplane. But as long as you can do that, then doing other things to enhance survivability (verify fuel selector in correct position, verify fuel pump on in low wings, opening doors if bad landing imminent etc) is a good thing as well.

So what he said thru inferrence was to prioritize, he said nothing to agree that short final means anything; quit speking for others. What I draw from his passage is to prioritize and do all you reasonably can based upon the time/alt you have. I posted teh cite that defines short final as teh last minute or so of flight before touchdown; of course you didn't address that. So you want to be nats ass specific with your P Factor thesis and your 20 degree times, coordinated banked turn which is a commerical maneuver, but loose and genral with short final which is really easily a mile out, yet you call it 200-300 feet as I recall. Yea, I won't want to fly in your airspace. Are you gonna call someone to tell them you're on short final as you're 200 ft from touchdown? You're just ridiculous.

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What I consider short final is at a point where the aircraft will make the runway no matter what happens short of a wing falling off.

Well then I would call King, Sperry and any other publication you can think of and write for them The flying world as according to Belgian

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In that case there is no time and little use in trying to restart the engine. Best move is to just fly the aircraft and get it down safe, worry about troubleshooting later.

You're talking after short final after you cross the fence. Let's see, in your dissertation would you call that a short-short final, or is that more of a short-short-short final? Belgian likes to be wide ipen general sometimes and then nat's ass pinpointed specific to win his arguments; surprised you haven't resorted to spelling errors yet.

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Sorry if you don't like it but that's the way i was taught by a retired pilot with Korea and Vietnam F-86 and F-104 experience. So, if you don't mind terribly, I will take his advice over yours.

I don't like or dislike it, you gave a situation using language that would lead any reasonable person to believe that you're a minute out, hence a mile or so, so I am going to check for fuel, whetehr I will make the runway, if not where will I go, etc. You just have a different dictionary than I do. BTW, mine is like everyone elses.

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Oh, btw, he also taught the attitude of "screw the charts, just remember that carb ice can happen in almost any weather conditions". Even at -20C.

That's right, just like stalls are taught that they are most susceptable when you are flying slow and have high angles of attack, but they are POSSIBLE AT ANY AIRSPEED OR ANGLE OF ATTACK, INCLUDING STRAIGHT AND LEVEL AT CRUISE, just not real likely. They teach that and tehy teach icing can happen at any temp or humidity, but ICE IS MOST SUSCEPTABLE BETWEEN 20 AND 70 F WITH 50%+ REL HUMIDITY.

See how that works? If your teachings were so general that you said hey, anything can happen at any time, I would call that a Fandango approach. Sure, anything can happen, you might see that spaceship over NM, but teachings illustrate what is likely, what is most predominate to find, but be prepared at all times. The cops could set you up for some odd reason, sure, but don't walk around thinking it will happen, it likely won't. Same logic, so again, icing is most susceptable between 20 and 70 F as I said, so I was right.

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Now, if you want to call three miles out "short final", then by all means have at it.

How bout if we call it 3/4 to 1 mile out and you quit exageratiing to cover your fuck up?

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So, are you going to address the OP or keep making assumptions based on things you know nothing about?

I've answewr all your questions in this game that YOU STARTED, are you gonna answer or run?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

You've never riveted on a semi-trailer, have you? I imagine you probably don't even have a clue as to the construction of one.

Well, if you must know, I had almost 15 years experience working in a steel and aluminum fab shop before i ever set foot in a college classroom. Started fabbing at 9, started college classes at 23. So, yes, I have a lot of hands on knowledge and instruction in the theory behind it.
Could you be given a sample of a new alloy and develope a welding or heat treat procedure for it? What about work hardnening? Could you look at the composition of an alloy and know where to start? I highly doubt it.
I believe Bill and I understand where each other is coming from on the short final issue. If he feels otherwise I am confident he will let me know without resorting to insults and irrational assumptions.

You still don't get how rotation DIRECTION influences handling on takeoff.
Ok, fine. Sit back in your chair and learn something, if you are capable.
P-factor is the tendency of an aircraft to pitch and/or yaw when the prop disk is not perpendicular to the relative wind due to differences in angle of attack. Pretty simple and I am sure you already knew that.
The aircraft will attempt to roll opposite the prop direction due to engine torque. Again, very simple and I am sure you already knew that.
Gyroscopic precession is one that you missed. When a force is applied to a spinning gyroscope, such as a prop, the force is expressed 90 degrees in the plane of rotation ahead of where it is applied. In a typical right-hand rotation (as viewed from the cockpit) small aircraft this results in a yaw to the right when the aircraft is pitched up.
Slipstream effect. The spiraling slipstream around the aircraft will hit the tail. This tends to also yaw and pitch the aircraft.
How all of these affect the aircraft on takeoff is dependent upon DIRECTION OF ROTATION if all else is held constant.
Offset thrust lines, etc are measures taken to minimizes these tendencies.
If I am mistaken on any of these points I welcome input from anyone, especially Prof Kallend since I believe besides teaching aeronautics he is also an accomplished pilot and his input would be most welcome.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kallend 2,146]

Neither of you measure up against this guy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Porn! Porn! Kallend is posting porn!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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Neither of you measure up against this guy.

Is that photoshop? If not, did you take that while flying?

[Lucky... 0]

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You've never riveted on a semi-trailer, have you? I imagine you probably don't even have a clue as to the construction of one.

You're absolutely right. The diff between you and me is that if I don't know, I'll say so. You don't want to be upstaged, so you pretend to know. Anyone reading this thread thinking you understand contract law or acft structure is named Belgian_Draft, all others know the truth.

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Well, if you must know, I had almost 15 years experience working in a steel and aluminum fab shop before i ever set foot in a college classroom. Started fabbing at 9, started college classes at 23. So, yes, I have a lot of hands on knowledge and instruction in the theory behind it.

Sure, and my dad was a boilermaker and the best GD welder I've ever known, but do I know a lot about welding? No. I watched him and helped him 100's of times, but I can't tell you a lot about it. Same goes with you and acft structure, you might be a low-time pilot, but you can't tell me anything about acft structure.

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Could you be given a sample of a new alloy and develope a welding or heat treat procedure for it?

No, nor could you. Your limited knowledge is a little theory and years assembling trailers to get thru school, I don't wanna hear your self-absorbed blanket of knowledge accross all lines of wory; it's arrogant to call yourself the master of all.

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What about work hardnening? Could you look at the composition of an alloy and know where to start? I highly doubt it.

Nope and unlike you, I don't pretend to know things that are foreign to me; I would look as silly as you do here if I did. At the same time, I don't see you bragging up your profession, so I don't buy that you are some metalurgist superhero. I'm sure you'll claim that tho.

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I believe Bill and I understand where each other is coming from on the short final issue. If he feels otherwise I am confident he will let me know without resorting to insults and irrational assumptions.

Bill said the same thing I did, prioritize, and if you have time, as you would on short final at about 1 min out, check fuel. In fact a guy in OK just had bad fuel and on depature with a fullload he had that same thing happen. I could check that thread, but I bet he gave a cursory grab on the fuel selector and eyed the primer. When they were good, he flew the acft knowing he would be gliding in; did a good job too esp considering he was over gross. If you can't multitask as a pilot you will become a statistic. Same with skydiving, I hope you can multitask or you'll end up in incidents. Bill basically indicated he would check gas (selector, pump if low wing) as he was flying the acft; same thing I said - you said opposite.

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You still don't get how rotation DIRECTION influences handling on takeoff.
Ok, fine. Sit back in your chair and learn something, if you are capable.
P-factor is the tendency of an aircraft to pitch and/or yaw when the prop disk is not perpendicular to the relative wind due to differences in angle of attack. Pretty simple and I am sure you already knew that.
The aircraft will attempt to roll opposite the prop direction due to engine torque. Again, very simple and I am sure you already knew that.

That isn't what I wrote?

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Gyroscopic precession is one that you missed. When a force is applied to a spinning gyroscope, such as a prop, the force is expressed 90 degrees in the plane of rotation ahead of where it is applied. In a typical right-hand rotation (as viewed from the cockpit) small aircraft this results in a yaw to the right when the aircraft is pitched up.
Slipstream effect. The spiraling slipstream around the aircraft will hit the tail. This tends to also yaw and pitch the aircraft.

Yep, as a PP that isn't relevant beyond understanding it's an element to overall P Factor. My ground school didn't teach and it as long as you understand how to counter P Factor so you depart parallel to the runway, that's all that matters. I could have been like you, scurrying around on teh net for this, but I gave the relevant answer of P Factor, that's what a private pilot needs to know. I was also obviously aware of torque. Until you get into High Perf acft. all of these factors means very little.

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How all of these affect the aircraft on takeoff is dependent upon DIRECTION OF ROTATION if all else is held constant.

Obviously, this is why ground schools genralize and teach P Factor compensation.

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Offset thrust lines, etc are measures taken to minimizes these tendencies.

As I stated and went further telling you of twins with counter-rotating props.

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If I am mistaken on any of these points I welcome input from anyone, especially Prof Kallend since I believe besides teaching aeronautics he is also an accomplished pilot and his input would be most welcome.

Also an accomplished pilot, as if you're in some elite club with your 70 hours of flight time and single engine, land rating, the lowest you can have. Real pilots everywhere are gagging. Try to keep yourself into perspective, at best you're an unemployed engineer of some general variety (not specialized) who isn't proud of where he now works, as he's probably unemployed, you have a PP lic with 70 hours and 28 jumps. Check yourself.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I never proposed to be an expert on contract law, you have. Nor did i ever say I was an expert in aircraft structure. Feel free to chack back through all posts.

Yes, I am a low time pilot. I didn't know hundreds of hours of flight time were required to understand aircraft design and construction.

Actually I have developed weld and heat treat processes for many alloys. My first job out of college was working with a compamy that specializes in just that.

I can multitask just fine when the need arises. I also know when not to. I think Bill can speak for himself. Unlike you he can accept other peoples viewpoint.

I never said anything about short final being one minute out. That was all you, buddy. All you.

I asked you what affect the direction of rotation of the prop has on takeoff handling. DIRECTION, not just the fact that the prop is rotating. I ams orry you can't understanmd a very, very, very simple question even after i went to great lengths to reword the question in fine detail so there could be no room for confusion.

Anything else you want to say to make yourself look like an even bigger fool?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kallend 2,146]

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Neither of you measure up against this guy.

Is that photoshop? If not, did you take that while flying?

It's the Giant of Cern Abbas, guaranteed winner of any dick-measuring contest like you guys are having.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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I never proposed to be an expert on contract law, you have.

Post where I stated I was. Here is what you said:

Those clauses are common to just about every major contract between a supplier and a builder.

And

Actually, I did. I have worked on many such contracts. Like I said, nothing new.

You don't use the term, "contract specialist" but you carry the pseudo swagger as if you are. So instead of me running my mouth as if I've worked many contracts, I actually researched the issue and posted the contract term/strategy and even posted a sample Boeing contract with that clause. I think we're starting to the diffs between you and I.

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Nor did i ever say I was an expert in aircraft structure. Feel free to chack back through all posts.

Did you ever use the statement, "expert in aircraft structure?" No, but you laid it out there and I shut you down on many fronts and you said, boo-hoo, I'm done with 20-questions, I don't wanna play anymore, I'm tired of getting my ass handed to me. I answered your ridiculous test, you refuse to answer mine - Game, set, match.

I realize these aren't your words, but cut-n-pasted, but you transcribed:

English wheels are great for forming 3003, 5052, 6061, etc. Which alloy to use depends upon how much cold working it will recieve, where it will be used, desired corrosion resistence, etc. But, at times lacking a wheel, sandbags and leather paddles do an acceptable job but its hard to beat a wheel for planishing out a weld.


That doesn't act as if you're putting yourself as an expert? And oh, BTW Einstein, you claimed all alloys are good to be welded and I stated 6061, something that is obvious within MY career field:

http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-sheets-2024T3-6061T6-3003-5052.htm

2024-T3 This is the most commom of the the high-strength alloys. Aircraft quaility. 2024 T3 aluminum sheet is thought of as the aircraft alloy because of it's strength. It has excellent fatigue resistance. Welding is generally not recommended.

English wheels are so 1940 in acft, maybe on OC chopper where stuff is specialized, but it just isn't cost effective and the skil is gone so you would go thru a lot of material getting it right. Even in homebuilding it isn't used, they will fair joints with fiberglass and use straight lines and avoid sheetmetal contours. If they have to, the they use that "O" material you are unaware of and fab a forming block, then heat treat, but it is very expensive to heat treat for the small guy. For that Chieftain I reskinned after its 2nd belly-in, I had to remake all the bulkheads bewteen the keels, tehy were exactly 12" across and I made them 1/2 way up and spliced them onto the existing damaged frames/bulkheads. It was like $300 for like 8 of them and that didn't include hardness testing. So small guys don't deal with radiuses and compounds other than by using fiberglass fairings, big acft manufacturers use hydroforming and dies; the English wheel is a donosaur in aviation, too bad your cut-n-pasty didn't also tell you that. BTW, where did you allegedly use an English wheel on trailers ?

You also said: With only 2 or 3 exception I have worked with, at one time or another, either in research or industry every alloy either of us have posted here and many more. That's hands-on work, not virtual.


So did you put yourself off as an expert? YES, just because you didn't use the word, "expert."

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Yes, I am a low time pilot. I didn't know hundreds of hours of flight time were required to understand aircraft design and construction.

No, actually working with acft for a couple 3 decades will get you there.

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Actually I have developed weld and heat treat processes for many alloys. My first job out of college was working with a compamy that specializes in just that.

So just out of college you're a seasoned metalurgist. Then why aren't you bragging it up. I'm waiting for Kallend to quiz you and put you in your place as I have, I don't think he wants to play in this mess.

I can't figure out why you aren't braggin it up and after all this crap you are just now easing it in.....could it be that IT'S BULLSHIT? Naw. Or you worked on a crew and you were the goffer and the seasoned vetrans of metalurgy did it, you just claimed the victory?

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I can multitask just fine when the need arises. I also know when not to. I think Bill can speak for himself. Unlike you he can accept other peoples viewpoint.

And he basically said you're wrong; you do need to check fuel if there's time.

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I never said anything about short final being one minute out. That was all you, buddy. All you.

No, you have your own dictionary, I was the one who coted it as being a minute out, 3/4 - 1 miles out; probably short of the field in many cases with an engine out. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS341US341&defl=en&q=define:short+final&ei=To_vSoyfD4iYMaK2oI4H&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAsQkAE

the last minute or so of an aircraft's flight path as it approaches an airfield or LZ.

And I could be abstract like you and say that for a 747 short final could be 3 miles out, but that is not the context we are talking, but if it was you you would assert that, just as with light, menaingless icing.

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I asked you what affect the direction of rotation of the prop has on takeoff handling. DIRECTION, not just the fact that the prop is rotating. I ams orry you can't understanmd a very, very, very simple question even after i went to great lengths to reword the question in fine detail so there could be no room for confusion.

I answered it several times. As a PP, which is all I have claimed to be, all I have to do is understand teh effects of P Factor on an acft, and I did. See, I don;t cast myself as something I'mnot, hence get myself into a mess, as you did with the acft structure questions you have decided to run from after decalring that you know lots about acft structures.

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Anything else you want to say to make yourself look like an even bigger fool?

Sure, why not go back and answer teh bevy of questions you are running from. Funny to see you call me a fool when you refuse to answer a line of questions YOU STARTED. And you call me a fool

Here, enjoy your wiggling some more about the short-final mumblinsg of you:

Well, to be fair, i did concede that "short final" can and does mean different things to each pilot/aircraft combination. To me, flying 152/172s, my short final is that...SHORT!! For me it is the 200-300 feet before touchdown.

And carb ice, it can happen any time, but you focus on primary susceptability and that is between 20 and 70 F, > than 50% humidity, I don't care you silly you want to get pretending you are in 100% humidity and refer to light ise, which teh FAA says, per your citation, that" Caution - light icing over a prolonged period may become serious.

IOW's, it's not a big deal. See, yoiu have to be abstract to try to make a point rather than staying mainstream.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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You don't use the term, "contract specialist" but you carry the pseudo swagger as if you are.

I'm sorry if you think somebody claims to be an expert just because they have a bit of experience. A good reason to stopp assuming things about people.

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Did you ever use the statement, "expert in aircraft structure?" No, but you laid it out there and I shut you down on many fronts

Again, sorry you assume things. And you have shut me down nowhere but you have looked like a fool trying.

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And oh, BTW Einstein, you claimed all alloys are good to be welded

I Did? Where oh where did I say that? I not only know what alloys can be welded using what methods, I know WHY. Do you? Thought not.

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You also said: With only 2 or 3 exception I have worked with, at one time or another, either in research or industry every alloy either of us have posted here and many more. That's hands-on work, not virtual.
So did you put yourself off as an expert? YES, just because you didn't use the word, "expert."

I will leave the choice of whether to use the word "expert" up to you since you seem to be the only one who knows what an expert is. The only thing I claimed was just what i wrote. Again, I am sorry you have to try to read into it what just isn't there.

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So just out of college you're a seasoned metalurgist

I graduated from college 20 years ago. Sorry to disappoint you.

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I answered it several times

No, you only mentioned p-factor makes the plane want to turn. The question was very specifically asking about how the direction of rotation...NOT JUST ROTATION ITSELF...influences takeoff handling. Very simple question, you won't admit you haven't a clue.

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And carb ice, it can happen any time, but you focus on primary susceptability and that is between 20 and 70 F, > than 50% humidity, I don't care you silly you want to get pretending you are in 100% humidity and refer to light ise, which teh FAA says, per your citation, that" Caution - light icing over a prolonged period may become serious.

You said carb icing starts at 20F. Very simple, straightforward remark.
Unfortunately it is wrong. I told you why and provided FAA documentation. So YOU can go tell the FAA they are wrong, don't tell me.
I will hold by the rule of thumb that icing can happen in virtually any weather conditions, thank you. I would rather be watching for it and not get it then vice versa.

***Well, to be fair, i did concede that "short final" can and does mean different things to each pilot/aircraft combination. To me, flying 152/172s, my short final is that...SHORT!! For me it is the 200-300 feet before touchdown. "
Yep, I posted that. Do you have problems understanding that there is no cut and dried definition of what a short final is? What part of that sentence do you find wrong or improper?

You are very funny to watch squirm.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

One issue at a time so you don't run from the others.

I wrote: And carb ice, it can happen any time, but you focus on primary susceptability and that is between 20 and 70 F, > than 50% humidity, I don't care you silly you want to get pretending you are in 100% humidity and refer to light ise, which teh FAA says, per your citation, that" Caution - light icing over a prolonged period may become serious.

You answered: You said carb icing starts at 20F. Very simple, straightforward remark.
Unfortunately it is wrong. I told you why and provided FAA documentation. So YOU can go tell the FAA they are wrong, don't tell me.
I will hold by the rule of thumb that icing can happen in virtually any weather conditions, thank you. I would rather be watching for it and not get it then vice versa.


Going back I wrote: Post 56: I am right, just as carb icing is most prevalent at 20F.

And: The chart I provided, page 14, shows serious icing starts at 20F to 80F http://www.ece.okstate.edu/...kDetectionSystem.pdf

AND THE FAA: http://www.faa.gov/.../newyork/ENROUTE.htm


Carburetor Ice - Three categories of carburetor ice are:

•Impact ice formed by impact of moist air at temperatures between 15-32°F on airscoops, throttle plates, heat valves, etc. Usually forms when visible moisture such as rain, snow, sleet, or clouds are present. Most rapid accumulation can be anticipated at 25°F.

•Fuel ice forms at and downstream from the point that fuel is introduced when the moisture content of the air freezes as a result of the cooling caused by vaporization. It generally occurs between 40-80°F, but may occur at even higher temperatures. It can occur whenever the relative humidity is more than 50%.

•Throttle ice is formed at or near a partly closed throttle valve. The water vapor in the induction air condenses and freezes due to the venturi effect cooling as the air passes the throttle valve. Since the temperature drop is usually around 5°F, the best temperatures for forming throttle ice would be 32-37°F although a combination of fuel and throttle ice could occur at higher ambient temperatures.

_______________________________________________
On the FAA written it's 20 and 70 also as being most susceptable. http://www.coryat.com/faa-pp-written/index10.html

Which condition is most favorable to the development of
carburetor icing?

ANSWER: Temperature between 20 and 70�F and high humidity.

When the temperature is between
20�F and 70�F with visible moisture or high humidity, one
should be on the alert for carburetor ice. During low or
closed throttle settings, an engine is particularly susceptible
to carburetor icing.



The possibility of carburetor icing exists even when the ambient air
temperature is as

ANSWER: high as 70�F and the relative humidity is high.

When the temperature is between
20�F and 70�F with visible moisture or high humidity, one
should be on the alert for carburetor ice. During low or
closed throttle settings, an engine is particularly susceptible
to carburetor icing.
________________________________________________

So your entirement argument stems around abstraction, as in ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN AT ANY TIME. This is true, but ridiculous if you want to make a point, great if you want to run from one. I bet you thought Clinton was being a liar when he said that a BJ is not sex. See, he's splitting hairs to get of of heat. By you saying anything can happen at any time you are doing teh same. What's next, are you going to ask us the defintion of is? And that's a relevant question, as "is" can be a directive, an inquiry or probably a conjunction and other forms. But in real circles we know he's trying to dice a word apart to justify his lie. Here, we have you intoducing a broad statement like: What is 20 degrees in aviation? OK, a PP or even a commercial, multi, etc who flies recip engines is going to say where carb icing begins as a general reference, more specifically where icing is most prevailent. A commecial pilot might give the answer you gave about coordinated, timed turns, esp if they no longer fly recips. But I guarantee you if you are on a checkride with a DFE or CFI and you miss the question when he's looking for carb icing is most prevalent, starts at, etc - he's gonna ding ya if you don't know it's 20F. And if you start yanking his dick over some chart where the FAA says it can start anytime, anywhere so there is no ABSOLUTE answer, they're gonna wanna run from you.

Yes, carb icing and stalls can happen at any time, any attitude, any airspeed, any temp, any humidity, any time of day or night, but tehy have prevalencies and THOSE ARE WHAT YOU REFER TO, EVEN ON THE FAA WRITTEN.

So your Clintonesque running is noted by all. Hell, we know what you're made of, you blocked me on PM for allegedly hurting your feelings, so I posted the PM's here and you didn't address it. You are who we know you are. You should man up and admit you erred with the 20 degree question. When I go to the airport today, as I do most days, I will ask all the licensed pilots there what 20 degrees means to them and get back. You fucked up, own it like a man.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

You said carb ice starts at 20F.
You did not state significant carb ice starts at 20F.
You did not say one did not need to be too concerned about carb ice below 20F.
You stated carb ice starts at 20F. That statement is wrong unless you are talking about a very specific set of environmental and atmospheric conditions. You did not mention anything about specific environmental and atmospheric conditions therefor your statement that carb ice starts at 20F was wrong.
Face it. Admit it. Get over it.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.