Personal Freedom

[quade 4]

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And that makes it all ok?

When did you suddenly start liking to put words in people's mouths?

I didn't say it was OK. I said it wasn't something I was worried about.

There are several issues here but the biggest one is catching the bad guys that would do harm against us. To do that we really do need to sweep the airwaves and internet listening for their plans. The ONLY way to do that is with computer automated systems such as the much fabled "Eschelon" and yes, it really does need to look at everything and not just targeted individuals. By the time you target a terror cell, it's too late.

All of the above said, it's a flood of information that can only be dealt with via technology. Humans only get involved with a tiny fraction of the information. That's the only way it's possible to deal with it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TomAiello 26]

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There are several issues here but the biggest one is catching the bad guys that would do harm against us.

Why is that the biggest one?

Simply collecting that data is a massive abuse of our rights. There's also a huge potential for mis-use (what if someone's estranged spouse is part of the data sifting organization, for example?).

I don't believe that the potential increase in "safety" us worth the abridgment of rights necessary to create it.

I'll take my society more free and less "safe," thanks.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rushmc 23]

If the data is there, someplace, someone WILL use it to advantage when the time is right.

Joe the Plumber anyone?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[cliffwhite 0]

[This isn't an attack on England... it's just where the story came from. This could have happened in so many other places.... so lets not take this to a U.S. v. England

Instead I am wondering about the discussion of what Privacy and Freedom should we have from Government.

[cliffwhite 0]

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And that makes it all ok?

When did you suddenly start liking to put words in people's mouths?

I didn't say it was OK. I said it wasn't something I was worried about.

There are several issues here but the biggest one is catching the bad guys that would do harm against us. To do that we really do need to sweep the airwaves and internet listening for their plans. The ONLY way to do that is with computer automated systems such as the much fabled "Eschelon" and yes, it really does need to look at everything and not just targeted individuals. By the time you target a terror cell, it's too late.

All of the above said, it's a flood of information that can only be dealt with via technology. Humans only get involved with a tiny fraction of the information. That's the only way it's possible to deal with it.

Those who would trade their freedom for security
will end up with neither.

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[quade 4]

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Those who would trade their freedom for security will end up with neither.

I wish I could just be satisfied with copying and pasting 200 year old truisms without questioning whether or not they actually completely fit within today's circumstances.

It must be comforting to think yourself wise based on the unquestioned wisdom of centuries ago.

We, in the US, have always traded some freedom for some security. The draft for instance. Taxes to pay for national defense. Signing away our personal rights for a paycheck.

By the way, the Franklin quote is as follows;

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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Notice the difference in tone. He's talking about "essential liberties" and "little temporary safety". He talking about stuff on the scale of The Revolutionary War (to be specific he's talking about having to put up with King George and his wrath as a result of the Boston Tea Party). He's absolutely not talking about a computer program that scans messages for key words about terrorism.

I don't really want to get into a huge defense of the program, but in times of war we have previously used censors for mail. This is far less intrusive.

Would I like it to go away? Sure. Absolutely.

Do I see it as a necessary evil in our current situation? Yes.

Am I worried about it? No.

That doesn't mean I like it. That doesn't mean I want it. That doesn't mean it can't be used for evil. It does mean that I don't think it will for all of the reasons I outlined in previous posts.

Spare me the ancient and simplistic analysis and FFS if you're going to attempt to quote somebody at least be accurate.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cliffwhite 0]

[
Spare me the ancient and simplistic analysis and FFS if you're going to attempt to quote somebody at least be accurate.

[quade 4]

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I wasn't quoting anybody ,quade. That's why there were no quotation marks.

So, you're claiming those words are your own original thoughts?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

wow.... I'm not a cliff apologist, but I'd think a greenie wouldn't be so quick to be quarrelsome over terminology

he didn't use quotes, he stated he wasn't quoting, what are you trying to prove?

--
Rob

[quade 4]

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wow.... I'm not a cliff apologist, but I'd think a greenie wouldn't be so quick to be quarrelsome over terminology

he didn't use quotes, he stated he wasn't quoting, what are you trying to prove?

That a lot of times people spout off these little truisms without thinking about where they come from or what they mean, which is clearly the case here.

People use them to in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cliffwhite 0]

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I wasn't quoting anybody ,quade. That's why there were no quotation marks.

So, you're claiming those words are your own original thoughts?

Uhmmm..,
Who elses original thoughts would I post and why?

I'd think that if someone else had an original thought I might wait for them to post it!

It's not all about me ,quade..,
Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[rhaig 0]

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People use them to in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue.

yup!! as much as we may disagree about other things, I'm with you on that one.

--
Rob

[Butters 0]

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People use them to in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue.

And people say things in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue ...

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I don't think they're incompetent. I think they're understaffed for the big tasks at hand and it's impossible for them to give a shit about something as far down the chain as me.

... have you learned nothing from history?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[quade 4]

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People use them to in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue.

And people say things in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue ...

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I don't think they're incompetent. I think they're understaffed for the big tasks at hand and it's impossible for them to give a shit about something as far down the chain as me.

... have you learned nothing from history?

(yet another thoughtless truism.)

Actually, no, what we're talking about here doesn't exist in history. Go back and read the original post and tell me how electronic surveillance has ever been used on a massive scale in history. It hasn't. It's been written about in science fiction, but the technology hasn't been deployed until recently.

There simply is no historical basis at all for the amount of paranoia that has generated.

That's not to say speculation on its possible abuse hasn't been done. Sure, I'll give you that. But history? Are you kidding me?

I think even billvon agrees with me that right now there isn't the capability to abuse it in the ways most people are afraid of at this time. It's only in the future that we'd have the capabilities to do what most paranoids are afraid of right now.

FFS, if it was as easy as most paranoids are claiming, the war on terrorism would be over.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

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I read the article. I thought you were talking about the US and in general though and not the specific case. I can't really speak to the issues in GB and this specific case. They may have some other weird crap going on in this specific case as well we're not privy to, like maybe it' a matter of mistaken identity / people with the same name ect.

I don't think you did. This was a case of deliberate "abuse" (abuse in quotes because the act was considered within their power) by local government. Why didn't anyone just think to ask her why her aplication looked fishy?

Reminds me of a commercial.

"Why didn't you just mail it?"
"We have a hover craft."

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Butters 0]

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People use them to in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue.

And people say things in an attempt to sound wise without having a clue ...

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I don't think they're incompetent. I think they're understaffed for the big tasks at hand and it's impossible for them to give a shit about something as far down the chain as me.

... have you learned nothing from history?

Actually, no, what we're talking about here doesn't exist in history. Go back and read the original post and tell me how electronic surveillance has ever been used on a massive scale in history. It hasn't. It's been written about in science fiction, but the technology hasn't been deployed until recently.

There simply is no historical basis at all for the amount of paranoia that has generated.

There is plenty of history regarding human behavior. The tools have changed, the behavior has not. I don't expect you to understand the concern since you don't understand that guns are a tool and that guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns. Just like blades are a tool and that blades didn't kill people, people killed people with blades. Just like clubs are a tool and that clubs didn't kill people, people killed people with clubs. Just like ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[quade 4]

So you're taking this sentence from the article 100% at its surface meaning and believe it to be absolutely true:

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Suspecting Ms. Paton of falsifying her address to get her daughter into the neighborhood school, local officials here began a covert surveillance operation.

You believe that without question and that in no way could it be a cover story so they could continue to track somebody of more importance?

I just want to understand that you believe everything the government tells you?

When a Sheriff says balloon boy's dad isn't under suspicion, he's telling the truth and not using that to further some other goal?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Butters, do you personally at this moment fear dying in a nuclear holocaust?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Butters 0]

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Butters, do you personally at this moment fear dying in a nuclear holocaust?

Quade, do you personally at this moment not have the ability to think of the next moment?

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"All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse." Benjamin Franklin

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[downwardspiral 0]

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So you're taking this sentence from the article 100% at its surface meaning and believe it to be absolutely true:

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Suspecting Ms. Paton of falsifying her address to get her daughter into the neighborhood school, local officials here began a covert surveillance operation.

You believe that without question and that in no way could it be a cover story so they could continue to track somebody of more importance?

I just want to understand that you believe everything the government tells you?

When a Sheriff says balloon boy's dad isn't under suspicion, he's telling the truth and not using that to further some other goal?

Do you think government is above reproach?

This case seems pretty cut and dry. MI5 nor MI6 weren't involved here. They performed covert surveillance on Ms. Paton for two weeks and then tipped their hand.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[TomAiello 26]

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You believe that without question and that in no way could it be a cover story so they could continue to track somebody of more importance?

Ah, the old "it's part of a vast, secret conspiracy" argument.

Clearly MI6 is hiding behind the school board so as not to tip their hand in an ongoing investigation of the ruthless terrorists masquerading as children.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[quade 4]

I'm saying it's a possibility.

I find it amazing that some people believe anything the government says, unless it conflicts with their world view, at which point they flip a switch in their head and don't believe anything the government says,then when it's convenient again, they flip the stitch back again.

The truth has to be in the middle there somewhere that the government lies sometimes and tells the truth other times.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cliffwhite 0]

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The truth has to be in the middle there somewhere that the government lies sometimes and tells the truth other times.

Mr quade, this US government for and by the people. Have the people granted the government the right to lie to them? Ever?

If legitimate government is based on the consent of the people , where did thepeople consent to be lied to?

Part of the time or full time matters not.

If the government lies to the people it is no longer a legitimate government . IMO

Blues,
Cliff

2muchTruth

[quade 4]

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If the government lies to the people it is no longer a legitimate government.

In that case, it was invalid before it was created.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

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I'm saying it's a possibility.

I find it amazing that some people believe anything the government says, unless it conflicts with their world view, at which point they flip a switch in their head and don't believe anything the government says,then when it's convenient again, they flip the stitch back again.

The truth has to be in the middle there somewhere that the government lies sometimes and tells the truth other times.

I find it amazing you think people ought to be so polarized. I find it even more amazing you think government is incapable of abuse of power yet lies continuously.

www.FourWheelerHB.com