JFK - 3 shots that changed America

[rwieder 0]

If this was not a conspiracy, which would mean more than one shooter then you have to be under the assumption that the last shot was from the rear, and only three, not four shots were fired? Your telling me that the headshot came from the rear but the brain matter flew backwards, with a good 1/4 of his skull on the trunk? It was this pice of JFK's body that Jackie was trying to retrieve when one of the secret service men ran and boarder the limo on the driver's side read step and hand hold bracket and forced Jackie back into the limo.

Let's see......rear shot, matter flying BACKWARDS instead of forwards......Nah, didn't happen. It's mechanically impossible. The first shot fired missed the limo and struck a curb close to where a Policeman was standing on the left side of the Limo just before the bridge they passed under after all of the shots were fired.

Between La Costra Nostra and LBJ, there's your key players. If they didn't get him in Dallas, another plot was being formulated in New Orleans and to be carried out by Carlos Marcellious et al; a mob boss in New Orleans. In fact they picked his ass up the next day. He was a "Person Of Interest"

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[lawrocket 3]

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: the theory that a single bullet hit both JFK and Connally.

A careful, frame-by-frame analysis of the Zaprude film shows JFK clutching his throat as the limo emerges from behind the sign. At that point, JFK has already been hit in the back, through the torso.

Take a look at JFK's elbows. His arms a perpendicular to the ground. Now, any good conspiracy theorist would say, "no person would hold his throat like that."

It's called Thorbun's position. The shickwaves caused by the round caused nerve damage in his cervical vertebrae. It was a reflex. As anyone who has ever grabbed a hot potato knows, the reflex is far quicker that the human reaction to pain. A video would show you dropping the potato before you ever showed any physical signs of distress. Kennedy's arms were up before he even processed that he'd been shot.

[Reply] Connally seems to be looking over his right shoulder, in apparent reflex to the sound (only) of that gunshot from behind him, but otherwise not characteristically reactive to having been struck by a bullet.

[rwieder 0]

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JFK shot in Dallas, 60% of his protection circle of CIA agents spent the night before in Jack Ruby's Titty Bar

That's a new one on me. Which of the protective detail, exactly, was it?

You must be young.

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no bullet proof glass bubble top on the limo.

Because it wasn't raining.

At least you have a sense of humor.

We know from a policeman that at least 4 shots were fired, not three.

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Bullshit. This was a theory sent forward by a group that said it could prove four shots were fired by echo patterns from an open mike recorded on a police scanner. they were right, and would have proven it had the officer been in a place he actually wasn't. The theory was disproven on this basis.

Nonsensense. Some curbing flew up and struck the policeman in the front of his legs and face, never mind breaking off a good sized piece of concrete out of the curbing.

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What about the witnesses on the grassy knoll that ducted, even according to video tape because one shot came from behing their backs

So these superhumans wouldn't duck at shots coming from the front or the side? If groups of people had the fortitude to stay silhouetted through gunfire, only fropping for shots from the rear, I'd say "conspiracy" just for that.

I guess that's fair.

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The Zapruder film says it all, that head shot was from the front, not the rear, no arguement, anything else is just BS.


***Then I've got lots of bs for you. Ever see a seizure? Do they flatten or curl up? Yep.
Take a look at zapruder film. Where does that cloud of blood and brain move? Yep - forward and to the right. That is the "exit wound." You may also understand the all of that brain and bone has energy that also directs the head backward.
See that motorcycle cop to the right? If the shot was from the from his windshielf wouldn't have been covered with JFK. See the back of the limo?
The front right of his head was blown out. The top right blown in.

If i had the time, i would retort each of your points. I still say your a fairly young man, and haven't the benefit of seeing all i have throughout the years.

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Not BS. Oliver Stone was a fucking asshole.

What does this have to do with the assination? Right, not a freaking thing. If Oliver Stone is an assholw, i guess Kevin Costner is an asshole as well for his film...eh?

I've shot too many deer and varmints, i know which wall matter goes when you shoot from the rear or from the front.

Right. Where'd the matter go? Far more telling than where'd the body and remaining head go.

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Into jars of fomaldahyde. His head was reconstructed with Embalmers clay.

***No crime scene preservance what soever, why all of the media allowed in the School Book Depository?

Because it was local. Trust me - there were some jurisdictional battles.

I'm well aware of the jurisditional divisiveness. That's no excuse for crime scene contamanation, then or now.

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JFK's corpse at Parkland Hospital being re-arranged to fit the conspiracy theory and his brain being removed from the cranial area, it was supposed to be brought out of mothballs in 20 years, never happened, never will.
Hmmm. The Parkland doctors who actually worked on him have different stories.

How convientient. They all had different stories? WOW! What a revelation!

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All of these facts lead me to believe a Conspiracy Theory. Plot did and does exists.
And 45 years later not a soul has said a word. Bigger proof there wasn't one.

Not so. "Dead Men Tell No Tales" All of the doctors that were involved in any event that included the Kennedy Corse were all dead within 5 years.

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I'm a damned good shot. I have acces to some sniper weapons, bolt action and semi-automic of various calibers and i couldn't have taken a bolt action rifle and put all three shots in that pattern.

What pattern? A deflection by a tree branch: miss low (makes sense - vehicle moving forward); and then a head wound on a nearly stationary behicle? I've had better groupings on that with iron sights.

Tell ya what, i've got a simulated calf that rides on aluminum rails. My son & i have performed numerous recreations of the scene, neither of us could get the proverbial three shots in the positions that whom ever shot JFK did. (My son is an Iraqi veteran.) I was born in Camp Pendleton, my father was a Marine Senior Drill Intstrutor. I was hearing rifle shots in the womb.

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I understand Oswald had high scores in his rifle training when he was in the American Army
High while in the Marines.

Marines, American Army, whatever.

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but he wasn't that good, no one is, not with a bolt action rifle with a scope on it anyway.

Bullshit. Two shots in 8.4 seconds from less than 80 yards with a zeroed scope and supported firing position?

All he left behind was the rifle. He would have had to had a spotter and set his windage before taking those shots. Once you pull the trigger, fire the shot you must eject the casing (Taking your eyes of off your scope for a moment) rack another round in, refocus, aim, and take another shot, repeating the steps before accurately again.

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Fire away.

I would, but you might say that nobody could fire away!!! It can't be done.

Ah what the hell, go ahead.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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All he left behind was the rifle. He would have had to had a spotter and set his windage before taking those shots. Once you pull the trigger, fire the shot you must eject the casing (Taking your eyes of off your scope for a moment) rack another round in, refocus, aim, and take another shot, repeating the steps before accurately again.

He also left behind three empty shell casings and what was left of his lunch (fried chicken, if memory serves).
At the range he was firing a minimal, if any, windage correction was needed. Since when has any experienced rifleman needed a spotter round at 80 yards???
The three shots can be, and have been, fired in the time frame allotted. Most folks, yourself evidently included, assume LHO had to load, aim, and fire the first round withing that time frame...but he didn't. The "clock" starts when the first shot is fired. Only two more are needed to be loaded, aimed, and fired. A person who had been practicing rapid fire drills with the same rifle for weeks would have absolutely no trouble getting off three very quick and sufficiently accurate shots. In fact, CBS performed tests in 1967 that show a skilled marksman with a little practice could repeat Oswalds shots. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVYrcxhBvY4&feature=related
Funny how the theorists ignore evidence against them for more than 40 years.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[airdvr 210]

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He also left behind three empty shell casings and what was left of his lunch (fried chicken, if memory serves).
At the range he was firing a minimal, if any, windage correction was needed. Since when has any experienced rifleman needed a spotter round at 80 yards???
The three shots can be, and have been, fired in the time frame allotted. Most folks, yourself evidently included, assume LHO had to load, aim, and fire the first round withing that time frame...but he didn't. The "clock" starts when the first shot is fired. Only two more are needed to be loaded, aimed, and fired. A person who had been practicing rapid fire drills with the same rifle for weeks would have absolutely no trouble getting off three very quick and sufficiently accurate shots. In fact, CBS performed tests in 1967 that show a skilled marksman with a little practice could repeat Oswalds shots. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVYrcxhBvY4&feature=related
Funny how the theorists ignore evidence against them for more than 40 years.

Agreed. Although I've never been I'd like to go to the plaza to get a sense of scale. I think most would be surprised how close the book repository is to site where the limo was. TV makes everything look bigger.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[philh 0]

I dont think there is sufficeint evidence to conclude JFk was going to withdraw from Vietnam. Plans to withdraw troops by 1965 made by JFK were contigent on victory!
In the sppech he was going to give on the day he was shot, we see this txt:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/speech.txt


"Our security and strength, in the last analysis, directly
depend on the security and strength of others--and that is
why our military and economic assistance plays such a key
role in enabling those who live on the periphery of the
Communist world to maintain their independence of choice.
Our assistance to these nations can be painful, risky and
costly--as is true in Southeast Asia today. But we dare not
weary of the task. For our assistance makes possible the
stationing of 3.5 million allied troops along the
Communist frontier at one-tenth the cost of maintaining a
comparable number of American soldiers. A successful
Communist breakthrough in these areas, necessitating
direct United States intervention, would cost us several
times as much as our entire foreign aid program--and might
cost us heavily in American lives as well.

About 70 per cent of our military assistance goes to nine
key countries located on or near the borders of the
Communist bloc--nine countries confronted directly or
indirectly with the threat of Communist aggression--Viet
Nam, Free China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Greece,
Turkey and Iran. No one of these countries possesses on its
own the resources to maintain the forces which our own
chiefs of staff think needed in the common interest.
Reducing our efforts to train, equip and assist their
armies can only encourage Communist penetration and
require in time the increased overseas deployment of
American combat forces. And reducing the help needed to
bolster these nations that undertake to help defend freedom
can have the same disastrous result."

[Lucky... 0]

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but he wasn't that good, no one is, not with a bolt action rifle with a scope on it anyway.

I'm not either way on the conspiracy, but what does the bolt action have to do with accuracy? And 80 yards isn't shit, even with flip up sites. I'm a poor shot and I coulda made it with a very little shooting range practice.

[Lucky... 0]

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As anyone who has ever grabbed a hot potato knows, the reflex is far quicker that the human reaction to pain.

Yes, it's called an autonomic reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomic_nervous_system

[NickDG 23]

>>Yes, it's called an autonomic reaction
Not exactly . . .

It's actually called the "Reflex Arc."

Touch a hot stove and it would take too long (relatively speaking) for the message to travel to your brain and back to your hand. With the reflex arc the "hot" message needs only travel to your spinal cord and back to your hand short cutting your brain altogether.

Around the time I'm reaching for that fifth beer I find my reflex arc kicking in . . .

NickD

[airdvr 210]

Still think if you could get into Ruby's head you'd have all you need to know. I'm not convinced it was mob related, communism, LBJ, Cuba, or anything else. But I leave my mind open to any of those possibilities.

Wish the Truthers wouldn't be so damned certain.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Andy9o8 2]

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Wish the Truthers wouldn't be so damned certain.

Jim Garrison was "certain." How'd that work out for him?

[Lucky... 0]

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>>Yes, it's called an autonomic reaction
Not exactly . . .

It's actually called the "Reflex Arc."

Touch a hot stove and it would take too long (relatively speaking) for the message to travel to your brain and back to your hand. With the reflex arc the "hot" message needs only travel to your spinal cord and back to your hand short cutting your brain altogether.

Around the time I'm reaching for that fifth beer I find my reflex arc kicking in . . .

NickD

This is onme of those cases where we're both right!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_arc

A reflex arc is the neural pathway that mediates a reflex action. In higher animals, most sensory neurons do not pass directly into the brain, but synapse in the spinal cord. This characteristic allows reflex actions to occur relatively quickly by activating spinal motor neurons without the delay of routing signals through the brain, although the brain will receive sensory input while the reflex action occurs. The main source of the reflex action is through the bottom muscles.

There are two types of reflex arc - autonomic reflex arc (affecting inner organs) and somatic reflex arc (affecting muscles).

[christelsabine 1]

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....

It's actually called the "Reflex Arc."
....
There are two types of reflex arc - autonomic reflex arc (affecting inner organs) and somatic reflex arc (affecting muscles).

OK. Obviously, physical knowledges did improve a lot since JFK's dead but, what exactly did those 3 (or more?) shots change in the US?

BTW: In my corner of the world, there still are circulating several conspiracy therories. Most folks do NOT believe it was just a single deed of a single person. As well as the action of next single person killing the first one .....

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Andy9o8 2]

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Obviously, physical knowledges did improve a lot since JFK's dead but, what exactly did those 3 (or more?) shots change in the US?

It's not really about what "the shots" changed; it's what JFK's untimely, violent death changed. If JFK had lived and been re-elected in 1964, he would have been President until January 20, 1969. In the US, arguably the most contentious issues and society-changing forces in the 1960s were the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement, as well as their respective "ripple effects": social change, the political landscape, popular music, relationships between older and younger generations, economic policy, foreign relations, who subsequent presidents might have been, etc. So the historical speculation is about how the US might ultimately have been different if JFK had survived to have had a different effect on all of those things than Lyndon Johnson did.

[dks13827 3]

there are several good books on the JFK assassination.......... by Gerald Posner, Vincent Bugliosi... Jim Moore............ and Mark Fuhrman. these authors lay it all out, with references who are named. the single shot, by the way, has been demonstrated, exactly, by forensic researchers using the same kind of rifle and ammo. Connally has an entrance wound on his back that matches exactly a bullet that has tumbled after hitting Kennedy and makes an elongated entrance wound on his back, not a small round hole. The researchers showed how a bullet that hit no bones in JFK slowed down, then hit Connally's rib sideways,, at a slow speed, is only flattened a small amount, and it matched the original bullet quite well in it's appearance. Also, there were 2 workers in the window below Oswald who heard him fire 3 times, and work the bolt rifle each time, and heard the casings hit the floor. They were indeed interviewed by the police. All the info is out there to see. Someone may have hired Oswald ? ha, that's a joke. He was a kook who could barely hold onto a minimum wage job. Why did Oswald do it ? Because he had the opportunity, and he wanted to 'be someone'. That's what his family, including his brother, said about him. Why did Ruby shoot Oswald ? He had the chance, quite by accident.. and he thought it was the right thing to do.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I feel that if JFK had not been murdered and had instead served out his term(s) in office he would be remembered as an average President. Instead, he was killed while still very popular with the public and has since been raised to an almost god-like status in some circles.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Lucky... 0]

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....

It's actually called the "Reflex Arc."
....
There are two types of reflex arc - autonomic reflex arc (affecting inner organs) and somatic reflex arc (affecting muscles).

OK. Obviously, physical knowledges did improve a lot since JFK's dead but, what exactly did those 3 (or more?) shots change in the US?

BTW: In my corner of the world, there still are circulating several conspiracy therories. Most folks do NOT believe it was just a single deed of a single person. As well as the action of next single person killing the first one .....

The physiology didn't change, just the understanding of it and terminology.

As for the conspiracy or not, I dunno. I'm not sure the US actually landed on the moon in 69, but we have to go from what we know or what is discovered, not some conspiracy; the byrden falls upon the purveyor of the conspiracy.

Is it possible that any or these conspiracies of JFK are true? Certainly.

[dks13827 3]

as far as the Apollo program, they documented and filmed everything they did. It's all out there to see. Read some of the books about the development, you will see the problems they faced and how they solved them. It all makes sense if you know some physics. Also, go talk to the guys while you still can, they make appearances. Go look at the spacecraft from Apollo at the NASA centers, they make logical sense. I lived through that program and studied it, anyone who at that time claimed 'fake' would have been laughed out of the room.

[Andy9o8 2]

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as far as the Apollo program, they documented and filmed everything they did.

Yeah. On a big sound stage. Clever fellows.

[lawrocket 3]

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Wish the Truthers wouldn't be so damned certain.

Jim Garrison was "certain." How'd that work out for him?

Perhaps he is an example of the worst to come out of this. A megalomaniacal DA looking for some glory. So he went after people he didn't like - mainly homosexuals or those he THOUGHT were homosexuals. The arrest and trial of Clay Shaw was a travesty.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[airdvr 210]

The whole thing is so damned tainted now it's difficult to know where to begin to find the truth.

38 years from now it'll prolly be the same with 911.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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The whole thing is so damned tainted now it's difficult to know where to begin to find the truth.

38 years from now it'll prolly be the same with 911.

I seriously doubt that. Conspiracy theorists for the Kennedy murder are actually listened to and bring out some good points for further investigation.
The 9/11 truthers only make us laugh at their willful ignorance.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,121]

>Conspiracy theorists for the Kennedy murder are actually listened to
>and bring out some good points for further investigation. The 9/11
>truthers only make us laugh at their willful ignorance.

Hey, don't put down the Kennedy conspiracy theorists like that! They are both excellent entertainment.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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The whole thing is so damned tainted now it's difficult to know where to begin to find the truth.

38 years from now it'll prolly be the same with 911.

I'm going to disagree with this.

The Zapruder film is an amazing piece of history.
The recording from the Dallas Police radio (the stuck mic on the motor cop), while badly misinterpreted, is still a valuable piece of evidence.

And people are still looking at it.

National Geographic Channel did a show on it not too long ago where they took the Zapruder film and converted it into 3D computer animation.
It allowed, to a certain degree, to see the event from different angles.
It was able to demonstrate the fallacy of the "magic bullet" by showing how Connelly was really sitting.

Discovery Channel did a show a couple years ago that looked (among other things) at the practicality of a single gunman being able to make the shots.
Using the same model rifle, a well trained marksman was able to shoot a "head sized" watermelon (that was in the back of a car moving at the same speed) three times from the same angle and distance in the same amount of time.

Just like the moon landing "hoax", if you look at all the evidence, not just the parts that support your theory, most of the conspiracy theories fall apart.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Lucky... 0]

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as far as the Apollo program, they documented and filmed everything they did. It's all out there to see. Read some of the books about the development, you will see the problems they faced and how they solved them. It all makes sense if you know some physics. Also, go talk to the guys while you still can, they make appearances. Go look at the spacecraft from Apollo at the NASA centers, they make logical sense. I lived through that program and studied it, anyone who at that time claimed 'fake' would have been laughed out of the room.

I don't claim it's fake, I just question its legitimacy. But as it stands, we have to go on what we know, not what we conspire.

Our space race was so intense, if we didn't lie we would have. As for teh films, they could be faked. Anyway, I'm not saying it is fake, I'm somewhat skeptical.