Do tax cuts for the rich lead to horrible economic times?

[mirage62 0]

This comes around from time to time on dz.com.

It's simple if you make more you should pay more, if there is a tax break you should get more.

But right up front and plain. The total bullshit about anyone that makes a hight standard living ($$$.$$$) "they stole it, they screw someone, they got it from there parents" IS JUST PURE BS. Did some of that happen of course you damn DORKS. Did most people do that NO.

I admire people like Kallend that make a good living and are more than willing to give MORE back. Bill does fine to, he seems willing to put more back (in taxes) but STOP saying the rest of us "stole" our way into making a good living. We may not want to give it all back - I don't. But I pay a BUNCH in, and I believe in that. But I have worked hard for 25 years to get there, stop calling us theifs

Rant over.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[georgerussia 0]

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What, a guess or personal opinion w/o any science or observation going into it? Are you saying that's the only reliable system to decide who to help?

It's not perfect, but it is the most reliable system, which is used by everyone in our everyday lives.

You obviously cannot help everyone. But when you decide whether to help a panhandler, a friend, a charity - and I'm not talking about just saving someone from starvation death, it might as well include something like new clothes for their kids for Christmas - what system do YOU use to decide who'd get your help, and how much?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Oh yea, and we need to deny them by denying all people any social welfare, even the vastly legitimate ones. Kinda like executing all guilty and innocent on death row so we can ensure we get the guilty ones. You, my freind, have defined what it is to be a contemporary conservative......or we could be compassionate and provide welfare and try to stomp out all abuse that we can.

You're arguing with yourself.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Ron 10]

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that makes for a system that creates disparity.

The system does not create disparity. People stay in the situation they can handle and want.

You want others to pay for what you want without you having to put in any effort.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Once the money is paid in as taxes, it is the government's money. As such, the fairest way to distribute it among the people is on a per capita basis, equally among all citizens, regardless of how much was paid in taxes.

Nonsense. the fairest way would be to give it back based on how much you paid in.

You and 3 others go out to eat dinner. The bill is 100.00 and you put in 10 dollars, Bob puts in 30 dollars and Mike puts in 60 dollars. There was a special and the bill was reduced to 90 bucks. You think the fair way to refund the difference is to give each person 3.33??????

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The most economically productive distribution would be to give it to people who are most likely to spend it immediately, i.e. the poor.

Arguable. The poor do not create jobs. If you give the break to the rich they will invest it. Investment creates growth, spending only sustains it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lucky... 0]

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that makes for a system that creates disparity.

The system does not create disparity. People stay in the situation they can handle and want.

You want others to pay for what you want without you having to put in any effort.

No, I want to adapt to a "normal" world standard of basic medical care guaranteed to all. Yes, teh US is elite and special, so special that we deny medical coverage based upon class. Real special. We are also the greatest debtor nation by a long stretch and we spend 8 times that of #2 on the military, so yes, we are sooooo special. I want to be a little less special as a nation.

I've put more effort than most, you are just guessing.

[Lucky... 0]

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You and 3 others go out to eat dinner. The bill is 100.00 and you put in 10 dollars, Bob puts in 30 dollars and Mike puts in 60 dollars. There was a special and the bill was reduced to 90 bucks. You think the fair way to refund the difference is to give each person 3.33??????

You want to compare / analogze the US economy to that of friends eating dinner? Hardly comparable at any level.

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Arguable. The poor do not create jobs.

They do when you give them money and IMMEDIATELY spend it vs giving it to the rich who bank it.

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If you give the break to the rich they will invest it.

That's what Hoover said; how'd that work out?

The areas they invest it, when they decide to invest/risk it, are areas that would grow anyway. Many rich don't take excessive risk with their money, they invest it in stocks that are climbing and secure, so this so-called investment isn't into an area of real growth.

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Investment creates growth, spending only sustains it.

Investment in people's human capital creates longterm growth. So let's invest in education. What you said makes me think of Reagan and his take, we all know that was a disaster.

[mnealtx 0]

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No, I want to adapt to a "normal" world standard of basic medical care guaranteed to all.

Feel free to move, then.

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Yes, teh US is elite and special, so special that we deny medical coverage based upon class.

Bullshit. If we're denying so much care based on class, then why are hospitals going broke providing care to those who can't/won't pay?

Today's word of the day is "EMTALA" - maybe you should go look it up after you pull your shoe out of your esophagus.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,116]

>Today's word of the day is "EMTALA" . . .

. . . . and it makes up the core of the right wing's health care plant. Get free health care - and just don't pay.

[Lucky... 0]

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Feel free to move, then.

Love to, if we can't get more socialist here, that is.

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Bullshit. If we're denying so much care based on class, then why are hospitals going broke providing care to those who can't/won't pay?

Well, you're 1/2 right, so you're 100% up from your normal position.

http://company.changehealthcare.com/blog/the-fiscal-health-of-us-hospitals/

Hospitals’ fiscal health is eroding. More than 50% of hospitals had a negative margin in Q4 2008. Sounds like the hospitals need wellness and disease management programs to address their ailing health just like patients are getting.

The main reason cited in Healthpopuli for the poor fiscal health is that admissions are down.

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Today's word of the day is "EMTALA"

As if we don't know that *some* hospitals must take any emergency care. But that raises more questions than it answers questions.

http://www.emtala.com/faq.htm

Any patient who "comes to the emergency department" requesting "examination or treatment for a medical condition" must be provided with "an appropriate medical screening examination" to determine if he is suffering from an "emergency medical condition". If he is, then the hospital is obligated to either provide him with treatment until he is stable or to transfer him to another hospital in conformance with the statute's directives.

What's an Emergency and what does the hospital have to do in that case?

If the patient does not have an "emergency medical condition", the statute imposes no further obligation on the hospital.

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Do all patients in active labor need to be admitted? It is common for patients to present with "false labor" or in the very early stages of true active labor, and certainly it is not necessary to admit all such patients.

Oh, how special, your perfect society, not admitting pregnant women for what they guess is false labor. What a country.

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Once the patient is admitted and stabilized, the EMTALA obligations end,

Yep, vertical and a pulse, get the fuck out. What a country.

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maybe you should go look it up after you pull your shoe out of your esophagus.

It is you who stuck it in yours, Mikey. And shall we talk about after the patient is released with a potential multi-1000 dollar bill? Of course they run from collectors and are threfore not as productive as they could be. I hope your nirvana of today's America changes drastically.

[Ron 10]

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No, I want to adapt to a "normal" world standard of basic medical care guaranteed to all.

"Normal" as defined by YOUR definitions only. That's not normal.

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I've put more effort than most, you are just guessing.

I think I've put more effort than most and you are just guessing. You keep spouting your opinions as fact and attempting to minimize anyone's opinion who does not agree with you as "guesses".

Yet all you have done is spout your opinion and expect it to be held to a higher standard.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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You want to compare / analogze (SIC- analogize) the US economy to that of friends eating dinner? Hardly comparable at any level.

Totally comparable when you are trying to decide the issue we were discussing.

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They do when you give them money and IMMEDIATELY spend it vs giving it to the rich who bank it.

All that does is SUSTAIN the current economy, it does not GROW it. You have not provided anything but your opinion to challenge that position either.

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The areas they invest it, when they decide to invest/risk it, are areas that would grow anyway.

Total opinion with no data to back it up.

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What you said makes me think of Reagan and his take, we all know that was a disaster.

And we all know what a failure Carter was. And we all know that Clinton's term ended with a recession as well.

Once you stop trying to blame all the bad on one party.... You might be worth discussing things with. As it stands now, your 100% pure partisan spin makes you nothing more than a dem fan boy, no better than a Rush Limbaugh.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mnealtx 0]

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>Today's word of the day is "EMTALA" . . .

. . . . and it makes up the core of the right wing's health care plant. Get free health care - and just don't pay.

Nice hyperbole, Bill - care to show me the politicians that are endorsing this, rather than a throw-away comment from a poster here?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Good point, let's choose a broader vision of "normal."

Universal health care is implemented in all industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States.[1] It is also provided in many developing countries.

So there's the standard to which I was referring; why do you make me illustrate fundamental facts?

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You keep spouting your opinions as fact and attempting to minimize anyone's opinion who does not agree with you as "guesses".

You claim I haven't put in enough effort and you don't know me, hence you are guessing. No, I minimize other's opinions that are not substantiated with external fact or data, or as I call it: yours.

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Yet all you have done is spout your opinion and expect it to be held to a higher standard.

No, I substantiate mine. My assertion: the US is fucked up or as I put it, "special" in regard to HC. You claim it is my opinion, I provided already known by most, information that the is the only indust country w/o universal HC of some form. You want to say we're trailblazers, cool, but you can't refute that we are way out there with HC being a privilege.

[billvon 3,116]

>care to show me the politicians that are endorsing this, rather than a throw-
>away comment from a poster here?

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Released in June, a national study by the American Journal of Medicine (.PDF) showed that 62% of bankruptcies in 2007 were tied to medical expenses. That's what a constituent told Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) at a recent town hall, but despite his bankruptcy, Kingston told the man he did "very well."

Eh? The elderly man, Jim Parker, told Kingston that he was recently treated for colon cancer, but did not have insurance. Kingston replied by telling Parker “you did do very well” because he was able to get treated when he arrived at the hospital. Parker responded, “I am functionally bankrupt!” Kingston cut him off and said "But you did get coverage. You didn’t get the insurance, but they won’t turn you down at the door."
http://www.huliq.com/3257/85957/gop-rep-tells-uninsured-man-things-worked-out-well-despite-bankruptcy
=========

GWB, 2007: "The immediate goal is to make sure there are more people on private insurance plans. I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."

[mnealtx 0]

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>care to show me the politicians that are endorsing this, rather than a throw-
>away comment from a poster here?

=========
Released in June, a national study by the American Journal of Medicine (.PDF) showed that 62% of bankruptcies in 2007 were tied to medical expenses. That's what a constituent told Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA) at a recent town hall, but despite his bankruptcy, Kingston told the man he did "very well."

Eh? The elderly man, Jim Parker, told Kingston that he was recently treated for colon cancer, but did not have insurance. Kingston replied by telling Parker “you did do very well” because he was able to get treated when he arrived at the hospital. Parker responded, “I am functionally bankrupt!” Kingston cut him off and said "But you did get coverage. You didn’t get the insurance, but they won’t turn you down at the door."
http://www.huliq.com/3257/85957/gop-rep-tells-uninsured-man-things-worked-out-well-despite-bankruptcy
=========

GWB, 2007: "The immediate goal is to make sure there are more people on private insurance plans. I mean, people have access to health care in America. After all, you just go to an emergency room."

And NONE of them saying, 'go but don't pay' - imagine my surprise....not.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,116]

>And NONE of them saying, 'go but don't pay'

Kingston told a constituent who couldn't pay that "you did get coverage." That was Kingston's "coverage plan" for this guy - just go to the ER even if you're bankrupt. And, as JohnRich pointed out, then you just don't pay.

Great plan. Well thought out, comprehensive and detailed. No wonder polls show that a solid one in four people think they are doing a good job.

[Lucky... 0]

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Totally comparable when you are trying to decide the issue we were discussing.

Well, let's compare it to kids playing jacks then, whatever works for you.

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All that does is SUSTAIN the current economy, it does not GROW it. You have not provided anything but your opinion to challenge that position either.

You're right, I am so sorry. Abliged to once again prove you wrong.

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=us&v=66

Under your system of tax cuts here's your growth, it's just lovely.

______________________

http://zzpat.tripod.com/graphs.htm

This is a great chart that compares Reagan to Clinton in terms of fiscal policy and result. I hope this puts to rest your silly notion that giving the rich more money stimulates growth over increasing taxes and giving the rich more money.

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And we all know what a failure Carter was. And we all know that Clinton's term ended with a recession as well.

What I said was that Reagan was a disater and you ignore that and pipe in with Carter and Clinton. Care to refer to the Reagan didsater? Refer to this chart again: http://zzpat.tripod.com/graphs.htm

Technically there was no Clinton recession, as there weren't 2 consecutive quarters of neg GDP growth. And even after 911 the handed-off economy was still string enough to achieve a + following quarter. There was no Clinton recession, even tho people refer to the slowdown as such. But I'll take 3500-9800 DJ growth any day.

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Once you stop trying to blame all the bad on one party....

I don't, I think GHWB was a great president and is a great man and war hero, unlike that scared trash Reagan who used an alleged vision problem to escape going to war.

Furthermore, Eisenhower was better than Clinton and/or GHWB. So your silly ad hominem arguments fall flat once again.

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You might be worth discussing things with.

You have posted nothing but opinion, I have posted data...run along Rushy.

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As it stands now, your 100% pure partisan spin makes you nothing more than a dem fan boy, no better than a Rush Limbaugh.

And I praise Republicans like GHWB, Eisenhower Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln as the greatest and I'm still partisan. Me thinks someone needs political history lessons.

[jcd11235 0]

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Nonsense. the fairest way would be to give it back based on how much you paid in.

You and 3 others go out to eat dinner. The bill is 100.00 and you put in 10 dollars, Bob puts in 30 dollars and Mike puts in 60 dollars. There was a special and the bill was reduced to 90 bucks. You think the fair way to refund the difference is to give each person 3.33??????

In your example, the patrons do not own the dinner equally. That is not the case with the government.

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Arguable. The poor do not create jobs. If you give the break to the rich they will invest it. Investment creates growth, spending only sustains it.

Trickle down economics contributed to a "jobless recovery" under President Bush. In other words, the working class benefited the least from the recovery, since the investments made by the rich did not create jobs.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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Great plan. Well thought out, comprehensive and detailed. No wonder polls show that a solid one in four people think they are doing a good job.

About as good of a plan as "we'll make it a right, then we'll have plenty of it" that the Dems are pushing.

They seem to forget that we fought a tiddly little war about 150 years ago over claiming the labor of others...imagine that.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Trickle down economics contributed to a "jobless recovery" under President Bush. In other words, the working class benefited the least from the recovery, since the investments made by the rich did not create jobs.

Better yet, look at the Great Depression and Hoover's reaction. He cut the top brkt 1% for almost 3 years until he almost trippled them to 67% after he realized pandering to the wealthy doesn't create growth. In that case 12 million died of starvation.

[Ron 10]

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So there's the standard to which I was referring;

A standard and normal are not the same thing.

standard: something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

#1 we have not agreed that what you want should be the standard. Only YOU have said that. Also only you are claiming to be an authority.

normal: conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

Since we have not agreed on "standard", we cannot agree to "normal"

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why do you make me illustrate fundamental facts?

Because your OPINION, is not a fact.

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You claim I haven't put in enough effort and you don't know me, hence you are guessing. No, I minimize other's opinions that are not substantiated with external fact or data, or as I call it: yours.

And you don't know my effort, therefore you are also guessing.

Your lame childish attempts to make this personal is just another example of you thinking only you could be correct.

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You want to say we're trailblazers, cool, but you can't refute that we are way out there with HC being a privilege.

And you can't refute that HC is not an right, or more accurately you can't prove that only YOUR vision of HC is correct. You want the country to be socialist, yet it was not founded on socialism.

Your data has been countered time after time... yet you still claim that only your data, and only your opinions matter.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,116]

>They seem to forget that we fought a tiddly little war about 150
>years ago over claiming the labor of others . . .

Exactly. A public option for health care is just like slavery.

No wonder no one takes the GOP seriously any more.

[Ron 10]

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In your example, the patrons do not own the dinner equally. That is not the case with the government.

Sure it is, they all had the same buffet.

But YOUR example is not correct. The lower levels of income actually use MORE of the Govt and put less in. So when a rebate is owed those that pay more and eat less should get the most rebate.

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Trickle down economics contributed to a "jobless recovery" under President Bush.

The economy took a hit after 9/11 and maintained growth till a bunch of social programs designed to give everyone everything blew up.

The wars didn't help.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,116]

>The poor do not create jobs.

Agreed - but they do spend more of their disposable income than the rich do. Thus, tax cuts given to the poor will result in more immediate stimulus of a consumer economy.

>If you give the break to the rich they will invest it.

Also agreed. That is a much longer term stimulus though. If you spend $1000 at the local car repair place, that is money that is immediately used to pay salaries, hire new mechanics and buy parts. If you put $1000 into oil futures, that is money that might someday enrich other people who buy oil futures, and may (in the future) encourage oil exploration - but does not immediately get money into the economy.