Do tax cuts for the rich lead to horrible economic times?

[kelpdiver 2]

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once again, you're so eager to argue with everyone that you can't even figure out the opposing position.

So you admit that the economic indicators were awesome during the Clinton era? Bout time. It's hard to refute even if ya hate the guy.

Perfect illustration of your mindless ranting! I hated Clinton so much I voted for him twice.

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It's a lot more fun to argue with people willing to admit obvious points so you can then move to more constructive sub-points perhaps.

Indeed. And that's why people only give you passing attention. You're incapable of realizing that those who disagree with you on some aspects agree with you on others, and proceed to use all your lame talking points on every person.

[Lucky... 0]

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I think when you isolate taxes on a given thing that people will avoid it and that isn't good. We need a diverse set of things to tax.

how is a sales tax not diverse? It taxes everything!!

It taxes income? It taxes vehicles? It taxes property? Get it?

[Lucky... 0]

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Perfect illustration of your mindless ranting! I hated Clinton so much I voted for him twice.

I didn't vote for him either time and I like his policies based upon their intent and then their result. All you can do is ad hominem, let's focus on the tax policies and their result, then contrast them with other polices and their results.

Again, you admit that Clinton's tax and overall economic policies were pretty good, right? If not, why? What would have been better?

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Indeed. And that's why people only give you passing attention. You're incapable of realizing that those who disagree with you on some aspects agree with you on others, and proceed to use all your lame talking points on every person.

Because you/they only post a passing opinion or a rigid norm (to them) of, TAX CUTS, MY FRIENDS. Yet not one swinging dick ha been able to show me a major tax cut and then show me the great result. You claimed to be my teacher, yet you refuse to show me the way and support it with any kind of real, broad data. Here. I will, for the 50th time.

- years before the GD, taxes were lowered to a top brkt of 25%

- GD kicks off, Hoover lowers taxes a point

- 12 million die

- Hoover almost tripples taxes in one fell swoop

- FDR throws them higher and recovery is realized for 5 years



Now on to Reagan and teh early 80's.

- Inherits 70% as a top brkt

- Lowers them to 50% immediately

- later lowers them to 38%

- later lowers them to 28%

- We enjoy the 1990 recession shortly thereafter

- GHWB raises them in 1990 to 31%

- Clinton raises them again to 40% top brkt

- economy recovers and creates a surplus, debt virtually levels off

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

Create me an argument, I can. Tax cuts, my friends, fucks everything up, tax increases fix things. There's more to the economy than taxes, but when you drop down under 40% you risk a lot. Let me hear your counter other than some rhetoric about me not wanting to hear yours.

[Lucky... 0]

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Guys, just give it up! You are never going to win with this person.

You have to present some data, not what your ddiddy taught you, but real evidence that supports a logical argument.

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This entire argument is based on some circumstantial graphs showing a relationship to taxes where there is none.

So recurring fiscal events for almost a century represents circumstantial? Instead of the ad hominem, show me where a major federal tax cut has improved anything.

So there is no relationship between taxes and what?

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This is the economic version of Al Gore and his CO2 charts ignoring everything else that goes on in the macrocosm that impacts the planet.

See if you can stay focused, I would like to hear your argument that a major federal tax cut has helped the economy. Or are you saying that taxes and the economy are simply strangers and that taxes don't affect the economy at all?

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(at which point the nuts will drop and I will become a Republican)

4 of the 5 wars started in the 20th century were under the Dems, yet your party is the party of tough? Brilliance.

You have further illustrated that you have the inability to refute any arguments and that you work from the diddy rule, where whatever diddy taught you is all you know and education is futile.

To think that tax receipts have nothing to do with the economy is exactly what got us to 12T debt, so no one is surprised when the staunch R's believe that. The other people call that ficsal irresponsibility and then when you hear the same R's saying, 'no big deal about taxes' then they spend to teh end of time, now they object to the HC issue, well, it'll pull more votes my way - so thank you for being you; don't change.

[JohnDeere 0]

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Guys, just give it up! You are never going to win with this person. This entire argument is based on some circumstantial graphs showing a relationship to taxes where there is none. This is the economic version of Al Gore and his CO2 charts ignoring everything else that goes on in the macrocosm that impacts the planet.

Let's sum up Lucky's argument:

You're a rich person. You are bad. I am poor. I am good. The government should give me your money to spend because I'm poor. I'm poor because I keep doing the things that keep me poor. For example, I spend money when I have it instead of investing long term. Unlike you, evil rich person, who keep doing the things that made you rich like passing up that XBox (which I, on the other hand, will gladly go out and buy with your money which was taken from you under threat of going to jail if you don't pay it) to buy stocks or bonds in a small cap startup with large potential to grow in the future.

Shame on you evil rich person. If you don't cough up how will we pay for this record deficit approved by our savior the Dali Bama, who was recently awarded the Nobel prize for doing nothing so he must be right. Even though you are in the group that pays 95% of the taxes, you are still not paying your fair share because I don't have money for the new PS3 Slim coming out this fall.

Don't bother arguing with me because rather than spending my time learning and expanding my skills to where I can get a job earning over $40k (at which point the nuts will drop and I will become a Republican) I have the internet at my fingertips and I also have the time to dig up obscure circumstantial relationships to support my positions. You, on the other hand, are really busy out there earning the money that I will get the government to take from you to buy my Xbox, so you are wrong because I have more time to waste on the internet than you do.

Thanks for the pep talk I will start payin more to the IRS as soon as Kallend, Andy908, Lucky,Cliff, Wonderworld, Quade and Billvon puts there money where there mouth is. Cant wait for never to happen Your only supposed to have to pay more if your concervative

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[Lucky... 0]

In another argument, you claimed the S&P is much more reliable than the DJIA. OK, here’s a comparison:

S&P 500

1993 451

2001 1,160

157% gain

DJI

1993 3,435

2001 9,878

188% gain

So you see, there’s very little difference between the two even if we ignore the Wall Street Journal and many other organizations/publications that refer to the DJIA as a relevant index by which to determine the countries fiscal health.

[Lucky... 0]

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Guys, just give it up! You are never going to win with this person. This entire argument is based on some circumstantial graphs showing a relationship to taxes where there is none. This is the economic version of Al Gore and his CO2 charts ignoring everything else that goes on in the macrocosm that impacts the planet.

Let's sum up Lucky's argument:

You're a rich person. You are bad. I am poor. I am good. The government should give me your money to spend because I'm poor. I'm poor because I keep doing the things that keep me poor. For example, I spend money when I have it instead of investing long term. Unlike you, evil rich person, who keep doing the things that made you rich like passing up that XBox (which I, on the other hand, will gladly go out and buy with your money which was taken from you under threat of going to jail if you don't pay it) to buy stocks or bonds in a small cap startup with large potential to grow in the future.

Shame on you evil rich person. If you don't cough up how will we pay for this record deficit approved by our savior the Dali Bama, who was recently awarded the Nobel prize for doing nothing so he must be right. Even though you are in the group that pays 95% of the taxes, you are still not paying your fair share because I don't have money for the new PS3 Slim coming out this fall.

Don't bother arguing with me because rather than spending my time learning and expanding my skills to where I can get a job earning over $40k (at which point the nuts will drop and I will become a Republican) I have the internet at my fingertips and I also have the time to dig up obscure circumstantial relationships to support my positions. You, on the other hand, are really busy out there earning the money that I will get the government to take from you to buy my Xbox, so you are wrong because I have more time to waste on the internet than you do.

Thanks for the pep talk I will start payin more to the IRS as soon as Kallend, Andy908, Lucky,Cliff, Wonderworld, Quade and Billvon puts there money where there mouth is. Cant wait for never to happen Your only supposed to have to pay more if your concervative

Or you could follow Warren Buffet and do as he believes and pay more taxes in higher brkts.....talk about never happening.

[JohnDeere 0]

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Guys, just give it up! You are never going to win with this person. This entire argument is based on some circumstantial graphs showing a relationship to taxes where there is none. This is the economic version of Al Gore and his CO2 charts ignoring everything else that goes on in the macrocosm that impacts the planet.

Let's sum up Lucky's argument:

You're a rich person. You are bad. I am poor. I am good. The government should give me your money to spend because I'm poor. I'm poor because I keep doing the things that keep me poor. For example, I spend money when I have it instead of investing long term. Unlike you, evil rich person, who keep doing the things that made you rich like passing up that XBox (which I, on the other hand, will gladly go out and buy with your money which was taken from you under threat of going to jail if you don't pay it) to buy stocks or bonds in a small cap startup with large potential to grow in the future.

Shame on you evil rich person. If you don't cough up how will we pay for this record deficit approved by our savior the Dali Bama, who was recently awarded the Nobel prize for doing nothing so he must be right. Even though you are in the group that pays 95% of the taxes, you are still not paying your fair share because I don't have money for the new PS3 Slim coming out this fall.

Don't bother arguing with me because rather than spending my time learning and expanding my skills to where I can get a job earning over $40k (at which point the nuts will drop and I will become a Republican) I have the internet at my fingertips and I also have the time to dig up obscure circumstantial relationships to support my positions. You, on the other hand, are really busy out there earning the money that I will get the government to take from you to buy my Xbox, so you are wrong because I have more time to waste on the internet than you do.

Thanks for the pep talk I will start payin more to the IRS as soon as Kallend, Andy908, Lucky,Cliff, Wonderworld, Quade and Billvon puts there money where there mouth is. Cant wait for never to happen Your only supposed to have to pay more if your concervative

Or you could follow Warren Buffet and do as he believes and pay more taxes in higher brkts.....talk about never happening.

Hmmm so thats a no to you paying more taxes than the govt. says you owe? You should do some more research cause Buffet has said he doesn't pay enough taxes but has NEVER wrote another check to the IRS for the extra that he thought he owed....... will you be the first?????? Please make a copy of the extra check to prove you beleive that you should pay more If not then STFU!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[mnealtx 0]

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Or you could follow Warren Buffet and do as he believes and pay more taxes in higher brkts.....talk about never happening.

Maybe you could get Charlie Rangel to pay his, first.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Guys, just give it up! You are never going to win with this person. This entire argument is based on some circumstantial graphs showing a relationship to taxes where there is none. This is the economic version of Al Gore and his CO2 charts ignoring everything else that goes on in the macrocosm that impacts the planet.

Let's sum up Lucky's argument:

You're a rich person. You are bad. I am poor. I am good. The government should give me your money to spend because I'm poor. I'm poor because I keep doing the things that keep me poor. For example, I spend money when I have it instead of investing long term. Unlike you, evil rich person, who keep doing the things that made you rich like passing up that XBox (which I, on the other hand, will gladly go out and buy with your money which was taken from you under threat of going to jail if you don't pay it) to buy stocks or bonds in a small cap startup with large potential to grow in the future.

Shame on you evil rich person. If you don't cough up how will we pay for this record deficit approved by our savior the Dali Bama, who was recently awarded the Nobel prize for doing nothing so he must be right. Even though you are in the group that pays 95% of the taxes, you are still not paying your fair share because I don't have money for the new PS3 Slim coming out this fall.

Don't bother arguing with me because rather than spending my time learning and expanding my skills to where I can get a job earning over $40k (at which point the nuts will drop and I will become a Republican) I have the internet at my fingertips and I also have the time to dig up obscure circumstantial relationships to support my positions. You, on the other hand, are really busy out there earning the money that I will get the government to take from you to buy my Xbox, so you are wrong because I have more time to waste on the internet than you do.

Thanks for the pep talk I will start payin more to the IRS as soon as Kallend, Andy908, Lucky,Cliff, Wonderworld, Quade and Billvon puts there money where there mouth is. Cant wait for never to happen Your only supposed to have to pay more if your concervative

Or you could follow Warren Buffet and do as he believes and pay more taxes in higher brkts.....talk about never happening.

Hmmm so thats a no to you paying more taxes than the govt. says you owe? You should do some more research cause Buffet has said he doesn't pay enough taxes but has NEVER wrote another check to the IRS for the extra that he thought he owed....... will you be the first?????? Please make a copy of the extra check to prove you beleive that you should pay more If not then STFU!

- Right, I pay what the gov says I owe.

- W Buffet says he thinks the top brkt s/b higher, IOW's he should pay more. This is what I was sying in regard to Buffet. Of course he won't just pay more, he wants his entire class to pay more as that's fair. He's smart enough to know when the top classes get away with hiway robbery at tax time that the country goes to shit and his earnings fall.

- Oh and STFU to me, what a great arguer you are.


Now that I have the trailer version of economics 101, address the thread title if you are able: show me a major federal tax cut that led to prosperity for all but the rich.

[mnealtx 0]

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show me a major federal tax cut that led to prosperity for all but the rich.

Here's a better one - show us an income tax cut that only the rich got.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Or you could follow Warren Buffet and do as he believes and pay more taxes in higher brkts.....talk about never happening.

Maybe you could get Charlie Rangel to pay his, first.

Or maybe we could getthese guys to start flying right: http://www.republicanoffenders.com/Bribery2.html

Or perhaps start by getting Larry Craig to stop shitting with a wide stance, cause it appears he's shopping for cock and all us pseudo moralists know that's a bad thing.

There, we done with your partisan rant yet? OK, now let's talk about all the awesome tax cuts, my friends that have led to sucess for all.....

I've asked this a million times w/o an answer, I would think you would concede or go away.

[Lucky... 0]

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show me a major federal tax cut that led to prosperity for all but the rich.

Here's a better one - show us an income tax cut that only the rich got.

So if a tax cut helps the poor 1 penny, than it's a neutral tax measure. Brilliant, Binary Mike. With the lower 50% of all filers accumulating to pay 2.89% of all taxes as of 2007 how is it that even a 50% tax cut would matter? You can't help that class by cutting taxes, you have to increase taxes on top and redistribute. Even if you took that entire bottom 50% of filers and made them all tax exempt it wouldn't be that big a deal. However if you do things like establish universal HC and other programs, that is what is real and brings them up.

Furthermore, the trhead reads: Do tax cuts for the rich lead to horrible economic times?

Since the rich pay most taxes therefore taxes can only be cut where teh money is, tax cuts help the rich. So do they lead to horrible economic times? Yes, they do; pls show otherwise. You want to flip the question around to read: 'Are there tax cuts aimed 100% exclusively at the rich.' I doubt it, but that's irrelevant as taxes for teh poor are irrelevant, only benefits. The rich want a tax cut, the poor want boost in services, so to act as tho these classes have identical needs is ridiculous.

[mnealtx 0]

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show me a major federal tax cut that led to prosperity for all but the rich.

Here's a better one - show us an income tax cut that only the rich got.

So if a tax cut helps the poor 1 penny, than it's a neutral tax measure. Brilliant, Binary Mike

I didn't say that, Strawman Lucky.

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Same old tired 'classist' argument snipped

Translation: I can't answer the question, so I'm going to fall back on my threadbare 'class' argument and forget I ever asked the question in the first place.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rhaig 0]

yeah. I get it, you must have an MBA or something. Tax base is not like business. you're trying to diversify your revenue streams. Running the IRS like a business. Your sure you're not a republican??

--
Rob

[kelpdiver 2]

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Now that I have the trailer version of economics 101, address the thread title if you are able: show me a major federal tax cut that led to prosperity for all but the rich.

Can anyone else figure out why we're looking for a tax cut that only benefits the non rich (rich being defined as those more proporous than Lucky, I believe) ? That's not germane to the subject title.

And how many economists can we find that thinks the Great Depression, a world wide malaise, hung on the tax increases or decreases by the American government, which at the time was still a minor player on the world scene? Even high schoolers get a deeper understanding of that event.

I'm checking out - this got way too dumb. There's not even a sockpuppet or two on the other side.

[Lucky... 0]

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show me a major federal tax cut that led to prosperity for all but the rich.

Here's a better one - show us an income tax cut that only the rich got.

So if a tax cut helps the poor 1 penny, than it's a neutral tax measure. Brilliant, Binary Mike

I didn't say that, Strawman Lucky.

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Same old tired 'classist' argument snipped

Translation: I can't answer the question, so I'm going to fall back on my threadbare 'class' argument and forget I ever asked the question in the first place.

So now you have to modify previous posts to make a point, my aren't you especially dishonest?

Then you actually delete my argument and say I can't answer the question. What a joke.

If you care to debate it, replace the original text and hit me up, or just be revisionist Mike.

[Lucky... 0]

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yeah. I get it, you must have an MBA or something. Tax base is not like business. you're trying to diversify your revenue streams. Running the IRS like a business. Your sure you're not a republican??

Ok, if you post what that was in referenec to I can respond, otherwise how can I?

[Lucky... 0]

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Can anyone else figure out why we're looking for a tax cut that only benefits the non rich (rich being defined as those more proporous than Lucky, I believe) ? That's not germane to the subject title.

If you posted the entire passage, not sentence, but passage it would be in context. John Deere or Mike I think it was posed a different question and dissected the clases, so I was responding based upon that.

Furthermore I realize that tax cuts help the rich, so I was trying to omit the benefit to the rich aspect; I already know that.

Ultimately I don't want to argue some minute, limited tax benefit, I want to find someone who can show me a major federal fed tax cut that has led to prosperity. No one has yet.

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And how many economists can we find that thinks the Great Depression, a world wide malaise, hung on the tax increases or decreases by the American government, which at the time was still a minor player on the world scene? Even high schoolers get a deeper understanding of that event.

I'm not here looking for professional economists pushing an agenda, I'm asking people here to show me thru any real objective evidence that taxes did or did not play a role.

Explain how the top brkt going into the GD was 25%, Hoover cut it to 24% thinking that's what we needed, 12 mill died and then almost 3 years later he raised them to almost tripple? FDR raised them more and opened major social programs and empowered workers and thimgs recovered. We have 2 directly opposed processes with directly opposed results and you want to say it's random chance or irrelevant? And the cycle repeated itself in later years.

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I'm checking out - this got way too dumb. There's not even a sockpuppet or two on the other side.

You've been running and unable to support your position from the start; why expect more now?

[Lucky... 0]

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Thank you for finally acknowledging the tax burden in this country is already on the top tiers.

You must be new, I've posted time and again that virtually all taxes are paid by the top 5%.

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So basically tax cuts for the uppers lead to horrible economic times because there will be less money (that they didn't earn) to spend on/by the bottom tiers.

Yes, they, as of the last 30 years lead to major deficits and debt accumulation. Care to disagreee?

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We can't cut taxes for the poor because they've already been cut.

Not at all, they never really were there to cut. Since the top 20% holds 93% of all cash, how can you tax the lower 80% and their 7%?

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We have to instead take money by force (i.e. ROBBERY) from other people that earned it and rebalance the distribution of money in this country to keep the economy going.

I love neo-cons who have to use emotionally-distracting language . Boo-hoo, it's highway robbery, we should have a wide wealth gap; anything else would be unfair - boo-hoo.

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I've got a better idea- how about they work for it! Send me one of these poor downtrodden souls that needs a boost in services and I'll show them where the gas can is for my lawnmower. Oops, I forgot- I've got an enterprising young kid that already comes by twice a month and does that. In fact, he does that for my neighbor and three people down the street. Does a damn good job too- even edges the sidewalk.

Yes the multi-trillion dollar US economy is comparable to the kid that mows your lawn via a folksy story. We all shed a tear. When lower classes cannot even go to the doctor that is outside any civilized culture; people from other nations gasp in horror at the thought of a major illness killing you or making you file BK to escape.

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Perhaps if we send the kid over there and make me pay for it her house can look as good as mine.

I nominate you for pres, the answer to the American dillema is a good-looking lawn.

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Come to think of it, I've got a house I hate cleaning, damn car keeps getting dirty and to top it off I've got a ton of leaves to bag up this winter. Guess I'll have to do all that myself since I just need to keep sending that money into the government to redistribute and keep the economy going.

Good, that way you don't forget your roots.

[Lucky... 0]

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Actually, yes I do disagree. Tax cuts don't lead to huge deficits and debt accumulation- spending more money than you have causes that problem. If I have $10k on a VISA it's because I have a spending problem, not an income problem.

This is where laypeople crack me up when they try to compare thier personal accounts to the US fed economic system. In limited metaphorical ways it can be done, ultimately it cannot.

What you're referring to is deficit based upon the GDP. IOW's if you earn a lot of money, you can spend more. Guess who's really bad at that as of lately?

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

So in that stretch spending as a product of the GDP is relevant and what you're refering to. Of course now we have a different animal and we have to deficit spend to get out, just as Clinton did until he got the Reagan mess under control. It took Clinton 4-5 years and it will take Obama most of his 8 years to turn the corner on this mess, as he has to stimulate the economy from the cellar, unlike Clinton who already had GHWB mostly recover from the 1990 recession.

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And yes, when you want to use the police power of government to put a gun to someone's head and take what they have earned to give to you it falls into that category.

I don't care if we are under the Hoover 25% top brkt or the Reagan 28% top brkt, if you don't pay, the same gun comes at you, so if you declare all tax collections as robbery, you ought to go live in the hill so of Montana with the Freemen.

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Call it what you like- I call it theft you call it redistribution. I will continue to get wealthier because I continue to do the things that make me wealthy which is why the gap continues to widen.

That's right, it's semantic to play wordgames. Goiod for you, prosper, I'm all for ya. I'm for a baseline of HC and basic social svs that are reasonable.

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And yes the economy is similar to the kid that cuts my grass. He provides a service and he is compensated according to the value of the service.

Here inlies the understanding of your knowledge of the US economy. Hello 1940, how is it back there?

[kallend 2,150]

So you're OK with spending on things you approve of, but not on things others approve of.

Multiply by 3x10^8

THAT, my friend, is the PROBLEM.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

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Nice try putting words in my mouth but I don't think so. That's not what I said. I'll pay my own way, but not yours.

I didn't have to put words in your mouth, because you wrote them down:

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Pay for a strong defense? Sure. Pay for roads? Sure. Pay for your subsistence, food stamps, HC? I don't think so.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lucky... 0]

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Nice try putting words in my mouth but I don't think so. That's not what I said. I'll pay my own way, but not yours.

I didn't have to put words in your mouth, because you wrote them down:

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Pay for a strong defense? Sure. Pay for roads? Sure. Pay for your subsistence, food stamps, HC? I don't think so.

Once again- I will pay my own way, but I expect you to pay yours. Obviously we have a disagreement on what constitutes 'your own way'.

Now you are trying to get definitive and semantic after you've been pwned? Dude, welcome to reality, you said it, own it.

[billvon 3,120]

>Once again- I will pay my own way, but I expect you to pay yours.

I'm paying for your freeways - freeways I almost never use. (I bike to work and stores.) But I'm fine with that. Through my company we buy licenses from the government so you can have things like TV on your phone. Again, I'm OK with that.

I'm also paying for pre-emptive invasions of countries based on lies, and I am _not_ OK with that. But that's life.

Now, what goes along with the free money I get from you is that I'm going to ask you to give up some of your money to my favorite programs. Net metering programs. Efficient vehicle incentives. Power infrastructure upgrades. These are all programs you could take advantage of if you wanted to, of course.