The Great Light Bulb Boondoggle

[jcd11235 0]

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Result - power usage went UP and blackouts ensued in those areas. Government bailouts saved the utilities, but Davis lost his job in the end.

Artificially reduced supply had a little bit to do with those blackouts. The energy was withheld from the market. Many (perhaps all) of the blackouts were artificially induced.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Result - power usage went UP and blackouts ensued in those areas. Government bailouts saved the utilities, but Davis lost his job in the end.

Artificially reduced supply had a little bit to do with those blackouts. The energy was withheld from the market. Many (perhaps all) of the blackouts were artificially induced.

Yes, I don't think California in the early part of the decade is a good example of market economies, rather than manipulation.

And as a regulated monopoly, I don't see reason to give them free rein to charge whatever they want. They have a captive audience, and provide a basic need.

[billvon 3,112]

>Artificially reduced supply had a little bit to do with those blackouts.

Agreed. One of the reasons that it wasn't an issue in San Diego was the reduced demand caused by the higher prices.

[rickjump1 0]

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Here we go...the Climate Change Nazi's have arrived

Upset about FirstEnergy's pricey, hand-delivered light bulbs? You ain't seen nothing yet

In just a few days, people dressed in green T-shirts and green caps will begin the rather enormous task of delivering two 23-watt, warm-white, compact fluorescent light bulbs to every residence FirstEnergy serves.

They won't ask whether you want them. They'll just leave them on your doorstep, in a bag that will also contain a brochure called "More Than 100 Ways to Improve Your Electric Bill."

They won't ask for payment, though. As you might expect with an electric utility, that's already wired.

These whiz-bang new light bulbs -- which cost FirstEnergy $3.50 each, and which you could buy all by yourself at any number of stores for even less if you were still trusted to do that sort of thing -- will cost you $21.60 for the pair. You'll pay it off over the next three years, at 60 cents a month added to your electric bill.

I bought all energy efficient bulbs for my new home. First, the co-op offered some kind of reduced rate, if you would just list where you put them. Then they requested receipts (loss of trust?). I had not kept all the receipts and don't care. I think it makes a difference, but then again, they never said I must comply, and none of the electric prick polic showed up at the door.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Nightingale 0]

CFLs give me migraines. =( I wish I could use them. I wish LEDs were cheaper.

Right now, I've got plain old incandescent light bulbs, and a lot fewer headaches than I did when I had CFLs in every fixture. My electric bill isn't that much higher.

[billvon 3,112]

>CFLs give me migraines. =( I wish I could use them. I wish LEDs
>were cheaper.

Why do you think they give you migraines? If it's the 120hz flicker, LED's do the same. If it's the color temperature/CRI, that's easy to fix.

[Nightingale 0]

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>CFLs give me migraines. =( I wish I could use them. I wish LEDs
>were cheaper.

Why do you think they give you migraines? If it's the 120hz flicker, LED's do the same. If it's the color temperature/CRI, that's easy to fix.

I'm pretty sure it's the flicker, but that's just a guess. I didn't think LEDs flicker, but I don't have any. I guess I should just stick with the incandescents, since they seem to be working for me. I noticed a big difference in my headache diaries when I changed all the lightbulbs back.

[billeisele 130]

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I think the energy savings of a CFL bulb, which reduces power consumption (which causes mecury polution depending on the way it is generated) offsets the tiny amount of mercury in the bulb.

Yes, coal energy produces mercury as well. But the CFL mercury is in the house, with no effective methods for cleanup.

what the heck are you stating here??
- the mercury released from a coal fired plant to produce kWhs to operate an incandescent bulb is many times more than the Hg in a CFL
- the mercury stays inside the CFL unless you break it
- even if all the CFLs were thrown in the trash and crushed the amount of Hg released would be much less than the Hg released from burning coal

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[billeisele 130]

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Here we go...the Climate Change Nazi's have arrived

Upset about FirstEnergy's pricey, hand-delivered light bulbs? You ain't seen nothing yet

In just a few days, people dressed in green T-shirts and green caps will begin the rather enormous task of delivering two 23-watt, warm-white, compact fluorescent light bulbs to every residence FirstEnergy serves.

They won't ask whether you want them. They'll just leave them on your doorstep, in a bag that will also contain a brochure called "More Than 100 Ways to Improve Your Electric Bill."

They won't ask for payment, though. As you might expect with an electric utility, that's already wired.

These whiz-bang new light bulbs -- which cost FirstEnergy $3.50 each, and which you could buy all by yourself at any number of stores for even less if you were still trusted to do that sort of thing -- will cost you $21.60 for the pair. You'll pay it off over the next three years, at 60 cents a month added to your electric bill.

Utlity companies have to play the game to keep regulators (that have been infiltrated by the wackos) to keep them off their backs.

Same reason they are building wind farms. It is political not a matter of economics. Tax incentives have made them (wind farms) break even endevors at best.

As for the bulbs, these type things are usually pushed by regulators saying to you (the utility) have to spend so much time and money on energy saving programs and education. There are many twists on the theme. So, check out what is happening in your area. My bet is they are being forced in some fashion to do this. To cover some compliance shit placed on them by the utility board of your state

interesting bit of literature but intentionally misleading and meant to inflame the issue with partial truths

- this utility was forced, as are many others, into developing energy efficiency / conservation / demand side management (DSM) programs that the state regulatory agency says they must do
- the utility is allowed to earn a rate of return (profit) on the investment in efficiency, this is as opposed to earning a rate of return on capital investment in generation
- the theory is that in either case the consumer would pay the same amount of $ but that efficiency has a better long term impact on health and the general well-being

the writer either: fully understands the complexity of regulated utility financing, capitalization and rate making and has chosen to write an inaccurate article, or is simply misguided

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[airdvr 210]

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- this utility was forced, as are many others, into developing energy efficiency / conservation / demand side management (DSM) programs that the state regulatory agency says they must do
- the utility is allowed to earn a rate of return (profit) on the investment in efficiency, this is as opposed to earning a rate of return on capital investment in generation
- the theory is that in either case the consumer would pay the same amount of $ but that efficiency has a better long term impact on health and the general well-being

All true. But, they are not allowed to force CFL's down my throat and make me pay 3X what I can buy them for at Home Depot.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[DougH 270]

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I think the energy savings of a CFL bulb, which reduces power consumption (which causes mecury polution depending on the way it is generated) offsets the tiny amount of mercury in the bulb.

Yes, coal energy produces mercury as well. But the CFL mercury is in the house, with no effective methods for cleanup.

what the heck are you stating here??
- the mercury released from a coal fired plant to produce kWhs to operate an incandescent bulb is many times more than the Hg in a CFL
- the mercury stays inside the CFL unless you break it
- even if all the CFLs were thrown in the trash and crushed the amount of Hg released would be much less than the Hg released from burning coal

Agreed. I don't follow the logic either.

We have two young kids in the house, and no broken bulbs. It may happen, but there isn't much chance other that the bulbs in the basement. Maybe bulb cages are in order down there, eventually.

On the flip side you can't be carefull and avoid being exposed to mercury polution from power plants, etc.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[kallend 2,147]

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I think the energy savings of a CFL bulb, which reduces power consumption (which causes mecury polution depending on the way it is generated) offsets the tiny amount of mercury in the bulb.

Yes, coal energy produces mercury as well. But the CFL mercury is in the house, with no effective methods for cleanup.

what the heck are you stating here??
- the mercury released from a coal fired plant to produce kWhs to operate an incandescent bulb is many times more than the Hg in a CFL
- the mercury stays inside the CFL unless you break it
- even if all the CFLs were thrown in the trash and crushed the amount of Hg released would be much less than the Hg released from burning coal

Agreed. I don't follow the logic either.

We have two young kids in the house, and no broken bulbs. It may happen, but there isn't much chance other that the bulbs in the basement. Maybe bulb cages are in order down there, eventually.

On the flip side you can't be carefull and avoid being exposed to mercury polution from power plants, etc.

When I was a kid mercury wasn't toxic. It became toxic sometime in the '60s.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DougH 270]

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I think the energy savings of a CFL bulb, which reduces power consumption (which causes mecury polution depending on the way it is generated) offsets the tiny amount of mercury in the bulb.

Yes, coal energy produces mercury as well. But the CFL mercury is in the house, with no effective methods for cleanup.

what the heck are you stating here??
- the mercury released from a coal fired plant to produce kWhs to operate an incandescent bulb is many times more than the Hg in a CFL
- the mercury stays inside the CFL unless you break it
- even if all the CFLs were thrown in the trash and crushed the amount of Hg released would be much less than the Hg released from burning coal

Agreed. I don't follow the logic either.

We have two young kids in the house, and no broken bulbs. It may happen, but there isn't much chance other that the bulbs in the basement. Maybe bulb cages are in order down there, eventually.

On the flip side you can't be carefull and avoid being exposed to mercury polution from power plants, etc.

When I was a kid mercury wasn't toxic. It became toxic sometime in the '60s.

Are you trying to say that I am overlooking the risk that CFL's pose in my house?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[wmw999 2,587]

No, I think he's just remembering how much fun it was to play with mercury in chemistry lab, or when the thermometer broke .

We used to ride bikes without helmets and in cars without seatbelts, too

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,147]

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No, I think he's just remembering how much fun it was to play with mercury in chemistry lab, or when the thermometer broke .

We used to ride bikes without helmets and in cars without seatbelts, too

Wendy P.

The world was black and white when my parents were young - the evidence is in all the old photos and old movies.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,587]

And stadiums didn't always have covers.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,147]

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And stadiums didn't always have covers.

Wendy P.

My generation invented sex. Once again, the evidence is in all the old movies and TV shows- no sex prior to the '60s; married couples like Lucy and Desi or Rob and Laura Petrie slept in separate beds...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billeisele 130]

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- this utility was forced, as are many others, into developing energy efficiency / conservation / demand side management (DSM) programs that the state regulatory agency says they must do
- the utility is allowed to earn a rate of return (profit) on the investment in efficiency, this is as opposed to earning a rate of return on capital investment in generation
- the theory is that in either case the consumer would pay the same amount of $ but that efficiency has a better long term impact on health and the general well-being

All true. But, they are not allowed to force CFL's down my throat and make me pay 3X what I can buy them for at Home Depot.

- the CFLs are free, give it to your neighbor if you don't want it
- everyone will pay the "surcharge" on the utility bill to cover the cost (and profit) to implement DSM programs, regardless of their participation
- your beef is not with the utility it is with the utility regulators and with the vocal minority that are convincing the country that doomsday is coming

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[billvon 3,112]

> I didn't think LEDs flicker, but I don't have any.

Cheap LED lights turn on and off at a 120Hz rate as the AC power reverses. They don't have capacitors to store enough power to ride through the no-power times.

Good LED lights (and good CFL's) do contain these storage devices, and have little to no flicker.

>I guess I should just stick with the incandescents, since they seem to
>be working for me.

Most incandescents don't flicker because of the thermal mass of their filaments. If you really need incandescent lights, halogens will save you some power over regular incandescents.

[billvon 3,112]

> your beef is not with the utility it is with the utility regulators and with the
> vocal minority that are convincing the country that doomsday is coming

My problem is not the idea that we have to conserve energy. We do. Nor is it with the idea that utilities have the right to enact programs to encourage conservation. They do that as well. My issue is the stupid way in which it was done. As others have pointed out, sending $10 CFL's to people's homes (that they may not even use) is a waste of money. Out here, SDG+E periodically subsidizes CFL's at local Home Depots so they cost under a buck. That way, people who want to buy them can, and people who don't want to can continue using their own bulbs. Makes a lot more sense to me.

[billeisele 130]

- the mercury released from a coal fired plant to produce kWhs to operate an incandescent bulb is many times more than the Hg in a CFL
- the mercury stays inside the CFL unless you break it
- even if all the CFLs were thrown in the trash and crushed the amount of Hg released would be much less than the Hg released from burning coal

[DougH 270]

Damn. There goes my plan of instructing the kids to freebase the Hg in the event that they kick a soccer ball into the lights.

I was going to cash in on some gubmint assistance programs!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[headoverheels 334]

They need to shop better. I can get those at the dollar store for, you guessed it, $1 each.

[billvon 3,112]

>I can get those at the dollar store for, you guessed it, $1 each.

Keep in mind that often those are subsidized by local utilities under similar programs, so their cost will be higher.