billvon 3,169
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Nope. Sadly, nowadays, it is Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, FOX News etc who are going to convince conservatives that health care reform is important.
I'm sure none of them actually examined the proposals themselves and determined using their own conclusions that the Obama plan was a bad idea.
I mean, all conservatives are incapable of critical thought right?
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billvon 3,169
>I'm sure none of them actually examined the proposals themselves
>and determined using their own conclusions that the Obama plan was a
>bad idea.
You mean Beck, Limbaugh et al? They're not that stupid. They are excellent at what they do, which is to sell ads by appealing to a certain market demographic.
If you really think that the talking heads on TV and radio are paid to tell the truth, and to give you honest, well-thought-out opinions, you may have a rude awakening in front of you.
>and determined using their own conclusions that the Obama plan was a
>bad idea.
You mean Beck, Limbaugh et al? They're not that stupid. They are excellent at what they do, which is to sell ads by appealing to a certain market demographic.
If you really think that the talking heads on TV and radio are paid to tell the truth, and to give you honest, well-thought-out opinions, you may have a rude awakening in front of you.
In skydiving, I have noticed that people keep making the same
mistakes that were made before. The advantage of training, or education, of any kind, is to not repeat mistakes of the past.
Employers look for an initial base of knowledge for any task.
Nobody hires some person off the street and says, "We just train
him to the level of a sr. engineer this month".
Intelligence is only a mental tool. The value of a hammer is
whether you use it.
For most politicians, their aspect of intelligence is not artist, mathematical, or engineering - it is social. The hardest to measure.
mistakes that were made before. The advantage of training, or education, of any kind, is to not repeat mistakes of the past.
Employers look for an initial base of knowledge for any task.
Nobody hires some person off the street and says, "We just train
him to the level of a sr. engineer this month".
Intelligence is only a mental tool. The value of a hammer is
whether you use it.
For most politicians, their aspect of intelligence is not artist, mathematical, or engineering - it is social. The hardest to measure.
jakee 1,643
QuoteRight. Excellent point. One of my best friends told me that it isn't right to compare Palin with Thatcher because say what you will, Thatcher was well educated.
So was Palin. In fact he met Terry Jones performing live comedy shows at Oxford, and two of the other Pythons started writing together at Cambridge.
QuoteThese ARE conflicting ideas. Bill mentioned that the better educated person will be better, all other things being equal. And he is right - all other things being equal just doesn't happen much.
You're conflicting again. The title of your thread is about intelligence and now you're talking about education. In the first paragraph of your first post you ask why intelligence is often only thought of in terms of academic achievements (letters) and then go on to talk almost exclusively about intelligence in terms of academic achievement.
You say it's good for Presidents to have the most intelligent advisors and staff (Reagan) but also that intelligent advisors and staff don't do good jobs (Kennedy/McNamara) as another reason not to have the most intelligent Presidents.
It's confusing.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,643
QuotePut another way - some people are idiots and others are geniuses makes little, if any, difference. The highly intelligent can lack common sense.
So what? It's not guaranteed that an intelligent person will have any common sense, but it's not mutually exclusive either. There shouldn't be any need to settle for one or the other when you've got an entire country to choose from, and you certainly can't hold it against an intelligent person that they might not have any common sense.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
Quote
I'm not seeing that from our President. Despite his impressive intellect, he is not uniting people. He is not turning the American public into his sales force for the world.
Is it because he is doing too much? Is he impatient? Or are his ideas simply not resonating?
How old are you? I believe you're in the ballpark of me, which means you were alive, but young when Reagan took office. The first few years of his tenure were not rosy and successful. The parallels are strong - he inherited a pretty lousy economy and it got worse for the first 2 years. It was much much better in the latter half (ignoring the debt issue), but you're comparing Obama's 1981 to his entire term, which is hardly a suitable comparison.
It's also a different era, politically. Despite much lower portions of party affiliation, the percentage of people who won't change their vote regardless of how stupid or letcherous their side gets is much higher.
nerdgirl 0
QuoteWhy is it so considered that a person with a Ph.D. Or J.D. would be a better leader than a person with a B.A.?
Is that true? (Or is it a negative 'begging the question'?)
Is it a false correlation? E.g., do GEN Petraeus and SefDef Gates' leadership qualities have anything to do with their having PhDs in international relations and history, respectively? (That might make them good at Trivial Pursuit ... or enable some interesting anecdotes tho'.)
/Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
QuoteQuoteWhy is it so considered that a person with a Ph.D. Or J.D. would be a better leader than a person with a B.A.?
Is that true? (Or is it a negative 'begging the question'?)
Is it a false correlation? E.g., do GEN Petraeus and SefDef Gates' leadership qualities have anything to do with their having PhDs in international relations and history, respectively? (That might make them good at Trivial Pursuit ... or enable some interesting anecdotes tho'.)
/Marg
I think their leadership qualities are separate from their education. Education strengthens these leadership skills because education lends credibility. As a former officer myself, knowing my shit was what helped me. The eltee knows what he's talking about.
It is, however, how they utilize that knowledge. My best-friend has kore degrees than a thermometer. He was first an economist - specilaizing and believing in post-keynesian economics. A Ph.D. In econ tells a person nothing of that individual's abilities or practices.
One benefit, however, is a better ability to vet.
I think intelligence and education should be highly regarded. I also look at myself, subjectively, and believe that it makes me no more worthy than anyone else. My client who is a high school dropout is a masterful businessman. I am not the best businessman - business administration is not exciting to me.
He can and has taught me plenty. I think he'd make a damned fine congressman - in part because of his lack of education and his plethora of street smarts.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
jakee 1,643
QuoteI think he'd make a damned fine congressman - in part because of his lack of education
Why?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
DougH 270
QuoteCommon sense, street smarts, multi-tasker and an average joe intellegence make a great mind.
Recently I heard about a study the showed that "multi-taskers" were actually just bad at concentrating on anything.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P
=P
QuoteQuoteYou're asking a lot of conflicting questions and making a lot of contradictory statements. I'm not sure what it is you're actually getting at.
Right. Excellent point. One of my best friends told me that it isn't right to compare Palin with Thatcher because say what you will, Thatcher was well educated.
As if her education made her beliefs and policies loftier than Palin's. Two people doing or thinking the same thing could be considered differently on the basis of whom they have read.
An intelligent, educated person will deliberately arrive at well-considered opinions. A less intelligent, less educated person may arrive at the same opinion, but only by luck.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
QuoteI hear so much about high intelligence, etc., in the political arena. The thought that a person of letters can do the job better than a person without. The idea that the institution that issued those letters is important.
Why is "high intelligence" so linked by some with "high academic accomplishment?" Why is it so considered that a person with a Ph.D. Or J.D. would be a better leader than a person with a B.A.?
I look at highly intellectual presidents of the US. I don't think any were brighter than Wilson. He was visionary - but his presidency has good and bad. Carter was a genius whose intellectual idealism was incompatible with the demands of the job. Clinton? He did great once he had Congress checking him. Obama is fitting his model to a tee - trying to do too much and too soon on the basis of intelligence and affability. How did McNamara's highly intelligent group do with Vietnam?
It doesn't take a genius to be a president. It doesn't take a genius to be a good president. Reagan was not the sharpest but he knew enough and surrounded himself with the best and brightest. Reagan supplied vision and delegated (perhaps too much).
But Reagan, despite being visionary, closed deals. Dubya didn't close many. Clinton got a few but not the ones he was really looking for. Carter is better at helping others close deals. It's still too early to tell with President Obama, but it isn't looking good.
And the less intelligent one is one can generally see that person are more decisive. Perhaps impetuous.
I'm questioning whether our current president is a little too cautious. Sometimes it's great, like with Iran. But other times, I want him to make a decision, damn the torpedoes and go. But being intelligent he recognizes all problems. To be mistake free, he avoids making the tough decisions. He knows he may be wrong.
I'm personally getting a little frustrated with it. Thomas Sowell, a man of letters himself and a favorite of mine for 20 years, recently penned an article whereupon the opinion was that while the unintelligent screw up it takes the really intelligent to cause catastrophe.
I agree. They weren't dunces who came up with the investment vehicles that would bring the economy to its knees.
I think that too much emphasis is placed on intelligence and education. Many of us have had professors who were intellectually brilliant but couldn't teach worth a hoot. An MBA shows you are educated in business administration but you've still gotta apply it in the real world. A whole lot cannot. A law degree from Harvard doesn't make you a great lawyer - it just means you went to a great school.
I do not suggest that any moron can do the job. A moron cannot do it effectively. But it does not take a highly educated genius to do it. Geniuses are great for some things. And so are avergae Joes. Nobody is good at everything.
Interesting thought.
I'd like to add that the really intelligent are probably able to either sustain, contain or conceal a disasterous situation until it's REALLY bad - and thus the catastrophe (one that would be exposed earlier on with the less intelligent).
I think that with intelligence as it relates to the President, I don't think that one can really gauge the true results of a President until later on. One can certainly criticize how they think the President is doing day-to-day or the way he handles things or how he goes about his decision-making, but I don't think the wisdom of the decisions can be made immediately.
kallend 2,212
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It is, however, how they utilize that knowledge. My best-friend has kore degrees than a thermometer. He was first an economist - specilaizing and believing in post-keynesian economics.
Those guys aren't looking so smart right now.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteI think he'd make a damned fine congressman - in part because of his lack of education
Why?
Because he knows what works and what doesn't. Versus what should work and what should not work.
Too often things get overly thought out. I know this.
Everything has costs and benefits. Education can provide a check on ignorance, and educated persons should be present and in authority. I simply do not find it to be the end-all be-all.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
> because they are not lawyers.
I don't think you would honestly recommend that someone take legal advice on DZ.com over the advice from a lawyer in the state they were having issues in.
>So intellect has nothing to do with it.
?? I didn't say that. I said you cannot unite people who do not want to be united. That is not the same as "intellect has nothing to do with it."
>Intelligence and personability isn't gonna make me convinced that
>my health care needs to be fixed.
Nope. Sadly, nowadays, it is Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, FOX News etc who are going to convince conservatives that health care reform is important. And they've stated that any failure by Obama is a success for them. Thus, their primary goal is to ensure failure in all his efforts, whether it's getting the Olympics here in the US or passing healthcare reform. (Or even having a rational debate over the issue.)
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