cliffwhite 0 #1 October 1, 2009 If in a situation of unlawful arrest ,how much force is it legal to use in resistance? How much force would you use? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #2 October 1, 2009 None. That's what the courts are for, right? Generally speaking of course. Without a bit of details concerning the specifics than I can't give a better answer.Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #3 October 1, 2009 QuoteNone. That's what the courts are for, right? Generally speaking of course. Without a bit of details concerning the specifics than I can't give a better answer. We are Freemen ,aren't we Glitch? Why wait for some court decision when you know that the cop has no legal reason to arrest you? What if you are being arrested by a fake cop or one with no legal jurisdiction such as American Police Force in Hardin ,Montana ? Have you watched any of the videos of the police actions at the G-20 in Pittsburg? A few Mossberg shotguns might have straightened out that assault on civil liberties. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 October 1, 2009 QuoteNone. That's what the courts are for, right?. Right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #5 October 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteNone. That's what the courts are for, right?. Right. So what if someone is impersonating an officer? Dressed like, Crown Vic equipped with search light,etc. You gonna wait for your day in court, Andy? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #6 October 1, 2009 You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #7 October 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteNone. That's what the courts are for, right?. Right. So what if someone is impersonating an officer? Dressed like, Crown Vic equipped with search light,etc. You gonna wait for your day in court, Andy? If the officer is a real officer, you either play it cool and comply, or risk being charged with resisting arrest and, almost certainly, assaulting the officer. It is not a crime to resist being arrested by someone who is not actually an LEO. Your posts and threads have a certain common element to them, Cliff. I suppose it's true that just because someone is always paranoid, that they're not out to get him. But chronic paranoia and conspiracy theories is not my idea of a functional lifestyle. But, it's your prerogative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #8 October 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNone. That's what the courts are for, right?. Right. So what if someone is impersonating an officer? Dressed like, Crown Vic equipped with search light,etc. You gonna wait for your day in court, Andy? If the officer is a real officer, you either play it cool and comply, or risk being charged with resisting arrest and, almost certainly, assaulting the officer. It is not a crime to resist being arrested by someone who is not actually an LEO.Quote So if you're not certain whether or not the person who is pulling you over is in fact a certified law enforcment officer you are in favor of just blasting the bastard? Your posts and threads have a certain common element to them, Cliff. I suppose it's true that just because someone is always paranoid, that they're not out to get him. But chronic paranoia and conspiracy theories is not my idea of a functional lifestyle. But, it's your prerogative. A lot of gibberish your typing there Andy. Typical I guess of an "officer of the court". Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #9 October 1, 2009 IF your being arrested by a fake cop, then your not being arrested. Your being assaulted and/or kidnapped. I suggest you protect yourself as if your life depended on it. If your being arrested by someone w/ "no legal jurisdiction" such as the American Police Force in Hardin, Montana... see above. Yes I've seen some video's of the G20... I don't personally agree with their (police) actions, but as an American citizen we have legal recourse to attempt to resolve those disputes. Taking the law into ones own hands, IMHO, should be a LAST resort and not the first. Due process is a two-edged sword. Thankfully, we still have the legal recourses to fall back on. The above being said... if the legal recourse are taken away from us, then it's a whole new ball game! IMHO... YMMVRandomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #10 October 1, 2009 QuoteIf the officer is a real officer, you either play it cool and comply, or risk being charged with resisting arrest and, almost certainly, assaulting the officer. It is not a crime to resist being arrested by someone who is not actually an LEO. Yeah, that's precisely what any rational person would take away from my posts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #11 October 1, 2009 QuoteIF your being arrested by a fake cop, then your not being arrested. Your being assaulted and/or kidnapped. I suggest you protect yourself as if your life depended on it. If your being arrested by someone w/ "no legal jurisdiction" such as the American Police Force in Hardin, Montana... see above. Yes I've seen some video's of the G20... I don't personally agree with their (police) actions, but as an American citizen we have legal recourse to attempt to resolve those disputes. Taking the law into ones own hands, IMHO, should be a LAST resort and not the first. Due process is a two-edged sword. Thankfully, we still have the legal recourses to fall back on. The above being said... if the legal recourse are taken away from us, then it's a whole new ball game! IMHO... YMMV So how do you ever know if it's a fake cop or a real one? One acting righteously or one with nefarious pupose? Do you just always comply or do you assert yourself and preemptively kill the cop? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeathByCactus 0 #12 October 1, 2009 Quote If in a situation of unlawful arrest ,how much force is it legal to use in resistance? How much force would you use? Blues, Cliff All the force I can once I am in the LEGAL SYSTEM. I've already read your other post on how you feel about armed police officers on your property and wanting to shoot them because you feel you need to keep your premises firearm free (regardless of the fact you have firearms). I have seen cases where police officers resisted against police officers in other states (because they thought they were racially profiled) and they fought back and got screwed for it. You go to jail and you fight in court. QuoteQuoteIF your being arrested by a fake cop, then your not being arrested. Your being assaulted and/or kidnapped. I suggest you protect yourself as if your life depended on it. If your being arrested by someone w/ "no legal jurisdiction" such as the American Police Force in Hardin, Montana... see above. Yes I've seen some video's of the G20... I don't personally agree with their (police) actions, but as an American citizen we have legal recourse to attempt to resolve those disputes. Taking the law into ones own hands, IMHO, should be a LAST resort and not the first. Due process is a two-edged sword. Thankfully, we still have the legal recourses to fall back on. The above being said... if the legal recourse are taken away from us, then it's a whole new ball game! IMHO... YMMV So how do you ever know if it's a fake cop or a real one? One acting righteously or one with nefarious pupose? Do you just always comply or do you assert yourself and preemptively kill the cop? Blues, Cliff Having common sense is a good start. Informing yourself is an even better start. Fake cop? Probably won't have a squad car with 100 lights and will call for backup if you roll on the road shoulder slowly... If you are in doubt, do that and call 911 and state your fear.Aspiring flying squirrel / Jump student Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #13 October 1, 2009 QuoteQuote If in a situation of unlawful arrest ,how much force is it legal to use in resistance? How much force would you use? Blues, Cliff All the force I can once I am in the LEGAL SYSTEM. I've already read your other post on how you feel about armed police officers on your property and wanting to shoot them because you feel you need to keep your premises firearm free (regardless of the fact you have firearms). I have seen cases where police officers resisted against police officers in other states (because they thought they were racially profiled) and they fought back and got screwed for it. You go to jail and you fight in court. QuoteQuoteIF your being arrested by a fake cop, then your not being arrested. Your being assaulted and/or kidnapped. I suggest you protect yourself as if your life depended on it. If your being arrested by someone w/ "no legal jurisdiction" such as the American Police Force in Hardin, Montana... see above. Yes I've seen some video's of the G20... I don't personally agree with their (police) actions, but as an American citizen we have legal recourse to attempt to resolve those disputes. Taking the law into ones own hands, IMHO, should be a LAST resort and not the first. Due process is a two-edged sword. Thankfully, we still have the legal recourses to fall back on. The above being said... if the legal recourse are taken away from us, then it's a whole new ball game! IMHO... YMMV So how do you ever know if it's a fake cop or a real one? One acting righteously or one with nefarious pupose? Do you just always comply or do you assert yourself and preemptively kill the cop? Blues, Cliff Having common sense is a good start. Informing yourself is an even better start. Fake cop? Probably won't have a squad car with 100 lights and will call for backup if you roll on the road shoulder slowly... If you are in doubt, do that and call 911 and state your fear. So ,and correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me ,death by cactus, that you would go along with an unlawful arrest and trust the cop who is acting ublawfully to comply with the law. Unlawful/comply with the law? It doesn't make sense to me. Please explain Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #14 October 1, 2009 in TX at least: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#C Quote9.31.(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified: (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary. (d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #15 October 1, 2009 QuoteSo ,and correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me ,death by cactus, that you would go along with an unlawful arrest and trust the cop who is acting ublawfully to comply with the law. You keep re-casting what people say to assert that they're saying something they have not said. You've turned what might have been an interesting discussion into the Twilight Zone. Or just plain weird. Waiter? Check, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeathByCactus 0 #16 October 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote If in a situation of unlawful arrest ,how much force is it legal to use in resistance? How much force would you use? Blues, Cliff All the force I can once I am in the LEGAL SYSTEM. I've already read your other post on how you feel about armed police officers on your property and wanting to shoot them because you feel you need to keep your premises firearm free (regardless of the fact you have firearms). I have seen cases where police officers resisted against police officers in other states (because they thought they were racially profiled) and they fought back and got screwed for it. You go to jail and you fight in court. QuoteQuoteIF your being arrested by a fake cop, then your not being arrested. Your being assaulted and/or kidnapped. I suggest you protect yourself as if your life depended on it. If your being arrested by someone w/ "no legal jurisdiction" such as the American Police Force in Hardin, Montana... see above. Yes I've seen some video's of the G20... I don't personally agree with their (police) actions, but as an American citizen we have legal recourse to attempt to resolve those disputes. Taking the law into ones own hands, IMHO, should be a LAST resort and not the first. Due process is a two-edged sword. Thankfully, we still have the legal recourses to fall back on. The above being said... if the legal recourse are taken away from us, then it's a whole new ball game! IMHO... YMMV So how do you ever know if it's a fake cop or a real one? One acting righteously or one with nefarious pupose? Do you just always comply or do you assert yourself and preemptively kill the cop? Blues, Cliff Having common sense is a good start. Informing yourself is an even better start. Fake cop? Probably won't have a squad car with 100 lights and will call for backup if you roll on the road shoulder slowly... If you are in doubt, do that and call 911 and state your fear. So ,and correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me ,death by cactus, that you would go along with an unlawful arrest and trust the cop who is acting ublawfully to comply with the law. Unlawful/comply with the law? It doesn't make sense to me. Please explain Blues, Cliff I have no reason to be in fear for my life from the government. I give no reason in which to be unlawfully arrested. If I were to be unlawfully arrested I come from a family of lawyers and would sue to an extent so great the city of Houston would sooner bend over and hand their internal organs to me. I am not going to kill a man who probably has a family and kids, just because he is in the wrong and being an idiot and I don't want to spend the night in jail. I respect the job of peace officer even if I do disagree with some of the laws they enforce. If it is not a cop, well, I am pretty keen on police and their activity as well as fakes... I don't stop for anything unmarked or not loaded with police lights. So yes, I will handle things like a mature adult. I know where the cop is taking me... I would be going to jail, I will be angry, and I will go to court. Not to mention have you even thought of the repercussions of shooting a cop, unlawful or otherwise? The fallout would be intense, months if not years of court OR you might just get thrown in jail anyway for the rest of your life.Aspiring flying squirrel / Jump student Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #17 October 1, 2009 QuoteI have no reason to be in fear for my life from the government. I give no reason in which to be unlawfully arrested.You're white, aren't you?QuoteIf I were to be unlawfully arrested I come from a family of lawyers and would sue to an extent so great the city of Houston would sooner bend over and hand their internal organs to me.How do they know that? And what if it were just an honest mistake that put you into jail? E.g. you looked like the perp, or someone ID'd you?QuoteNot to mention have you even thought of the repercussions of shooting a cop, unlawful or otherwise? The fallout would be intense, months if not years of court OR you might just get thrown in jail anyway for the rest of your lifeThe repercussions generally make it not worth it, even in the very unlikely circumstance that it was justified. Police deal in a lot of emergent situations, and they cannot be perfect. That's just life. But it's also unacceptable to say that you might just get thrown in jail anyway -- there's a reason we trust our systems, and I'd really hope to continue to be able to trust our systems. When our social systems depend on individual power, they break down in the long run. It's the insititutional power that means that the people control the system, rather than the people at the top. Which is why Congress sucks so much right now -- there seems to be more and more focus on power there, and the power of being an incumbent is real. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeathByCactus 0 #18 October 1, 2009 QuoteQuoteI have no reason to be in fear for my life from the government. I give no reason in which to be unlawfully arrested.You're white, aren't you?QuoteIf I were to be unlawfully arrested I come from a family of lawyers and would sue to an extent so great the city of Houston would sooner bend over and hand their internal organs to me.How do they know that? And what if it were just an honest mistake that put you into jail? E.g. you looked like the perp, or someone ID'd you?QuoteNot to mention have you even thought of the repercussions of shooting a cop, unlawful or otherwise? The fallout would be intense, months if not years of court OR you might just get thrown in jail anyway for the rest of your lifeThe repercussions generally make it not worth it, even in the very unlikely circumstance that it was justified. Police deal in a lot of emergent situations, and they cannot be perfect. That's just life. But it's also unacceptable to say that you might just get thrown in jail anyway -- there's a reason we trust our systems, and I'd really hope to continue to be able to trust our systems. When our social systems depend on individual power, they break down in the long run. It's the insititutional power that means that the people control the system, rather than the people at the top. Which is why Congress sucks so much right now -- there seems to be more and more focus on power there, and the power of being an incumbent is real. Wendy P. I am white, I won't sue if they made a crappy ID. I am arguing Cliffs extremes and therefore not including every single instance. I was referring to some nasty event that could happen in which I was beaten and roughed up then brought to jail (should have been more clear). Being thrown in jail is the worst that would happen as would me suing anything. I have been improperly ID'd before and sat in a squad car for 20 minutes till the guy came and said I wasn't the perp at which point the police apologized and let me be on my way. Half the time I talked to the police about why they prefer the Glock 40 to the 1911. I agree with your thoughts though.Aspiring flying squirrel / Jump student Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #19 October 1, 2009 quote]You're white, aren't youQuote Race baiting so soon or do you imply white people are perfect? Police stop people of any color.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #20 October 1, 2009 Yes, police stop people of every color. In some parts of some cities, you are more likely to be stopped if you are of color. I can remember a discussion among some co-workers a few years ago; three young black men who were all computer programmers, all three very middle-class. We had a beeper that we used for midnight calls, and we passed it around. They were talking about how when it was their turn to have the beeper, when they were stopped, it was a guarantee that they'd have to step outside the car and put their hands on top to be frisked. No beeper, not as great a chance. I'm not a perfect driver, I speed etc. But as a middle-aged white woman who also wore the beeper, I could not relate anything remotely like that. I didn't get stopped with any regularity, and I for damn sure never had it assumed that I was a drug dealer just because I had a beeper. It's real. It's not necessarily as real as some people think, but it's real. Read Shah's thread; as a middle-eastern-looking US citizen, he doesn't like to fly because he's more likely to be searched. It's only acceptable to be profiled if you're not the one being profiled. It's an inconvenience when it happens to someone else. I'll bet it's more than that if it happens disproportionately to you (that would be the rhetorical you, not the literal you). And even if it's wrong that it happens, that doesn't make it any less embarrassing when you're the one who's seen by the neighbors with their hands on the car, being frisked, or pulled aside at the airport. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #21 October 1, 2009 QuoteYes, police stop people of every color. In some parts of some cities, you are more likely to be stopped if you are of color. I can remember a discussion among some co-workers a few years ago; three young black men who were all computer programmers, all three very middle-class. We had a beeper that we used for midnight calls, and we passed it around. They were talking about how when it was their turn to have the beeper, when they were stopped, it was a guarantee that they'd have to step outside the car and put their hands on top to be frisked. No beeper, not as great a chance. I'm not a perfect driver, I speed etc. But as a middle-aged white woman who also wore the beeper, I could not relate anything remotely like that. I didn't get stopped with any regularity, and I for damn sure never had it assumed that I was a drug dealer just because I had a beeper. It's real. It's not necessarily as real as some people think, but it's real. Read Shah's thread; as a middle-eastern-looking US citizen, he doesn't like to fly because he's more likely to be searched. It's only acceptable to be profiled if you're not the one being profiled. It's an inconvenience when it happens to someone else. I'll bet it's more than that if it happens disproportionately to you (that would be the rhetorical you, not the literal you). And even if it's wrong that it happens, that doesn't make it any less embarrassing when you're the one who's seen by the neighbors with their hands on the car, being frisked, or pulled aside at the airport. Wendy P. I got stopped for having a low rear end(no kidding). The trunk was full of ex-military rigs as we were on our way to visit a rigger at night in Fl. If you are a white boy driving a dirty old clunker in an upscale neighborhood at night, there's a pretty good chance you are gonna be stopped. That's what the police do. They profile, and they cannot effectively do their job without doing it. Unfortunately, there will be small setbacks in moving toward a color-blind society. Stop all criminal and terrorist threats, and we can move there faster.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FreeflyChile 0 #22 October 1, 2009 Quote How do they know that? And what if it were just an honest mistake that put you into jail? E.g. you looked like the perp, or someone ID'd you? In that case, the arrest/detention may not be illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #23 October 1, 2009 QuoteWe had a beeper that we used for midnight calls, and we passed it around. They were talking about how when it was their turn to have the beeper, when they were stopped, it was a guarantee that they'd have to step outside the car and put their hands on top to be frisked. No beeper, not as great a chance. Yeah it does happen... But you know what I have also noticed? I was pulled over at a checkpoint, I had a buddy who was black following me in his car... He got pulled over as well. They started asking us both questions. I answered them... He gave them grief about why they "stopped a black man". Our beliefs colored the reason for the police's actions. I was pulled over at a random checkpoint.... He thought he was pulled over for "driving while black"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #24 October 1, 2009 QuoteI got stopped for having a low rear end(no kidding). that happens as you get older - eat more vegetables and take up bicycling ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pbwing 0 #25 October 1, 2009 QuoteWaiter? Check, please. +1 I think I'll add cliffwhite along with dreamdancer to the list of post authors whose threads I don't even bother opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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wmw999 2,589 #20 October 1, 2009 Yes, police stop people of every color. In some parts of some cities, you are more likely to be stopped if you are of color. I can remember a discussion among some co-workers a few years ago; three young black men who were all computer programmers, all three very middle-class. We had a beeper that we used for midnight calls, and we passed it around. They were talking about how when it was their turn to have the beeper, when they were stopped, it was a guarantee that they'd have to step outside the car and put their hands on top to be frisked. No beeper, not as great a chance. I'm not a perfect driver, I speed etc. But as a middle-aged white woman who also wore the beeper, I could not relate anything remotely like that. I didn't get stopped with any regularity, and I for damn sure never had it assumed that I was a drug dealer just because I had a beeper. It's real. It's not necessarily as real as some people think, but it's real. Read Shah's thread; as a middle-eastern-looking US citizen, he doesn't like to fly because he's more likely to be searched. It's only acceptable to be profiled if you're not the one being profiled. It's an inconvenience when it happens to someone else. I'll bet it's more than that if it happens disproportionately to you (that would be the rhetorical you, not the literal you). And even if it's wrong that it happens, that doesn't make it any less embarrassing when you're the one who's seen by the neighbors with their hands on the car, being frisked, or pulled aside at the airport. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #21 October 1, 2009 QuoteYes, police stop people of every color. In some parts of some cities, you are more likely to be stopped if you are of color. I can remember a discussion among some co-workers a few years ago; three young black men who were all computer programmers, all three very middle-class. We had a beeper that we used for midnight calls, and we passed it around. They were talking about how when it was their turn to have the beeper, when they were stopped, it was a guarantee that they'd have to step outside the car and put their hands on top to be frisked. No beeper, not as great a chance. I'm not a perfect driver, I speed etc. But as a middle-aged white woman who also wore the beeper, I could not relate anything remotely like that. I didn't get stopped with any regularity, and I for damn sure never had it assumed that I was a drug dealer just because I had a beeper. It's real. It's not necessarily as real as some people think, but it's real. Read Shah's thread; as a middle-eastern-looking US citizen, he doesn't like to fly because he's more likely to be searched. It's only acceptable to be profiled if you're not the one being profiled. It's an inconvenience when it happens to someone else. I'll bet it's more than that if it happens disproportionately to you (that would be the rhetorical you, not the literal you). And even if it's wrong that it happens, that doesn't make it any less embarrassing when you're the one who's seen by the neighbors with their hands on the car, being frisked, or pulled aside at the airport. Wendy P. I got stopped for having a low rear end(no kidding). The trunk was full of ex-military rigs as we were on our way to visit a rigger at night in Fl. If you are a white boy driving a dirty old clunker in an upscale neighborhood at night, there's a pretty good chance you are gonna be stopped. That's what the police do. They profile, and they cannot effectively do their job without doing it. Unfortunately, there will be small setbacks in moving toward a color-blind society. Stop all criminal and terrorist threats, and we can move there faster.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyChile 0 #22 October 1, 2009 Quote How do they know that? And what if it were just an honest mistake that put you into jail? E.g. you looked like the perp, or someone ID'd you? In that case, the arrest/detention may not be illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 October 1, 2009 QuoteWe had a beeper that we used for midnight calls, and we passed it around. They were talking about how when it was their turn to have the beeper, when they were stopped, it was a guarantee that they'd have to step outside the car and put their hands on top to be frisked. No beeper, not as great a chance. Yeah it does happen... But you know what I have also noticed? I was pulled over at a checkpoint, I had a buddy who was black following me in his car... He got pulled over as well. They started asking us both questions. I answered them... He gave them grief about why they "stopped a black man". Our beliefs colored the reason for the police's actions. I was pulled over at a random checkpoint.... He thought he was pulled over for "driving while black"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #24 October 1, 2009 QuoteI got stopped for having a low rear end(no kidding). that happens as you get older - eat more vegetables and take up bicycling ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbwing 0 #25 October 1, 2009 QuoteWaiter? Check, please. +1 I think I'll add cliffwhite along with dreamdancer to the list of post authors whose threads I don't even bother opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
