jcd11235 0 #101 September 30, 2009 QuotePlease re-read the last two sentences of my post that you quoted, as it will address your rebuttal. I've bolded the point that negates your statement about "negotiations" and possibilities that a crime was committed by the VFW commander. QuoteBottom line, the guy agreed to do it, isn't complaining about it now that he isn't taped to the flag pole. So logic dictates that he agreed to it and is fine with that decision. So, you're cool with him handling the plea negotiations himself, bypassing the legal system? What the post commander did is a textbook example of vigilantism. Do you also lack respect for the rule of law? If a rape/theft victim doesn't complain about or report the rape, does that imply that the rape/theft wasn't a crime? I once had my car stereo stolen and didn't report it. Does that mean the theft wasn't illegal?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #102 September 30, 2009 What? When possible, take care of your own problems. I couldn't be more consistant, and it is more of a philosophy than logic. Another tenent in the Tau of Divot, right up there with "When entertaining customers: The night shift girls are prettier but the daytime dancers are more open to negotiation".You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #103 September 30, 2009 Quote - wrongful detention: The guy agreed to it - possibly kidnapping: The guy agreed to it Regardless of right/wrong issues, I don't think that defense works in court. Dr. Kevorkian? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #104 September 30, 2009 QuoteWhere did I say plea? You didn't. You continue to avoid using the relevant terms, as they highlight the inconsistency of your logic.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #105 September 30, 2009 QuoteI couldn't be more consistant [sic] … I'm sorry to hear that. I, OTOH, can be more logically consistent than you've been, so I'll continue doing so.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #106 September 30, 2009 QuoteDoes that mean the theft wasn't illegal? It means that you achieved a level of satisfaction acceptable to yourself without expecting someone else to take care of you. I'm good with that.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #107 September 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteDoes that mean the theft wasn't illegal? It means that you achieved a level of satisfaction acceptable to yourself without expecting someone else to take care of you. I'm good with that. What satisfaction is that? I was out a car stereo without any resolution at all. I wasn't at all satisfied. The theft was still illegal, even if I chose to not file a report.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #108 September 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhere did I say plea? You didn't. You continue to avoid using the relevant terms, as they highlight the inconsistency of your logic. Plea is a legal process term that you try to apply to a situation that didn't enter the legal process because it doesn't fit with your attempt to make your position even remotely valid. At this point, I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you-that way only you are wrong.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #109 September 30, 2009 QuotePlea is a legal process term that you try to apply to a situation that didn't enter the legal process because it doesn't fit with your attempt to make your position even remotely valid. Right. The legal system was avoided, but punishment was still given. That is vigilantism.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #110 September 30, 2009 >are all abuses of reasonable discuss and healthy speech I agree I was invited to protest on a few occasions and I refused for those reasons, however protest does serve a purpose. It publicizes dissent. Dissent is good especially considering what government leaders have been historically capable of without the bother of public outcry. I feel for the warriors who fight for an ideology and the symbols like the flag because there is probably no greater horror than to realize that your life may be wasted on a battle field for no good reason. So it is imperative for ones own sanity to get ultimate support by the citizens for your sacrifice and also for your burned and dismembered comrades- because the horrible alternative is that you were used as the ultimate tool and fool for the agenda of some Govt. officials who enjoyed safety with their family in their own country while you were out there in a muddy piss filled ditch getting your shit all shot up. that my friend is the value of the protest and the protester- to shine light on the abuses of power.Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #111 September 30, 2009 Two sides resolved a situation without resorting to violence, passing any noticable expense to society, or causing physical harm. Sounds like maturity to me. I still think that whenever possible people should solve their own problems and not be such tit fed pussies that some authority has to constantly play big brother. *** +1 well said RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #112 September 30, 2009 Quote>are all abuses of reasonable discuss and healthy speech I agree I was invited to protest on a few occasions and I refused for those reasons, certain kinds of protest are absolutely necessary - but if it turns (or is planned) to be ugly and confrontative, rather than to get a forum for respectful discussion - then it's counterproductive burning flags - screaming idiots -> doensn't help anyone's cause ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #113 September 30, 2009 Never fuck with some old guy that looks like he likes it that way. My dad used to scare people to death without saying anything to them. It was the way he looked at them, like he could kill them then settle down and watch some TV. The truth is, he and others like him could have. They went through such horror that nothing on earth scared them, and any punishment a court could hand down seemed laughable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #114 September 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteYay, vigilante justice? WTF? Ok, I get it, the guy that lit the flag on fire was an asshole and a law breaker. Sure, no question. However, that doesn't mean people get to duct tape him to a flag pole. That's just freekin' stupid. OK, so what in your opinion would be a good way to handle this situation? Me, I think the guy got off pretty light and it's apparent the guy who taped him to the flag pole does too. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked that the man's identity remain undisclosed for fear of retribution from others who aren't as lenient as he. At a minimum, a serious ass kicking was in order IMO just for the simple fact he willfully destroyed someone else's personal property, the fact that it was the US flag makes it even more egregious. Lawrocket's post is pretty much spot on with the way a lot of Veterans think, not just the old crusty ones. Agreed Scott, many of the guys we know would have been a "little" more punitive. I know I would have been a bit pissed over it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #115 September 30, 2009 >burning flags - screaming idiots -> doensn't help anyone's cause >destruction of property what about the deployment of a military force, is that perfectly acceptable for the proliferation and dissemination of a symbolic ideology?Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #116 September 30, 2009 people should solve their own problems and not be such tit fed pussies that some authority has to constantly play big brother. +1 well said So why can't I get a fully armed apache helicopter Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #117 September 30, 2009 Quote Yes, it was an act of vigilantism. From Black's Law Dictionary: vigilantism. The act of a citizen who takes the law into his or her own hands by apprehending and punishing suspected criminals. I saw no reason to infer that the VFW post commander is a law enforcement officer or a judge. Did you? So if I catch one of my kids (3 year old) shop lifting a sucker. I notice when we get to the car. I take my kid and make then return and explain it to the manager. Then once we get home i spank and punish my kid as i see fit. You would call me a vigilanty? I could have turn my kid in and let them deal with it. Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #118 September 30, 2009 Quote So if I catch one of my kids (3 year old) shop lifting a sucker. I notice when we get to the car. I take my kid and make then return and explain it to the manager. Then once we get home i spank and punish my kid as i see fit. You would call me a vigilanty? I could have turn my kid in and let them deal with it. No, that wouldn't be vigilantism. That would be parenting. If the store manager took it upon himself to lock your kid up for a few hours, bypassing the legal system, that would be vigilantism.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #119 September 30, 2009 Quote Quote So if I catch one of my kids (3 year old) shop lifting a sucker. I notice when we get to the car. I take my kid and make then return and explain it to the manager. Then once we get home i spank and punish my kid as i see fit. You would call me a vigilanty? I could have turn my kid in and let them deal with it. No, that wouldn't be vigilantism. That would be parenting. If the store manager took it upon himself to lock your kid up for a few hours, bypassing the legal system, that would be vigilantism. It's the same thing reguardless of me being the parent. They both broke a law and they got punished outside of the law!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #120 September 30, 2009 QuoteIt's the same thing reguardless of me being the parent. They both broke a law and they got punished outside of the law! In your example, you're son is three years old. You are responsible for his actions. You punishing him independently of the store manager would be like the vandal punishing himself, independently of the post commander. That isn't what happened.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #121 September 30, 2009 QuoteQuotePlease re-read the last two sentences of my post that you quoted, as it will address your rebuttal. I've bolded the point that negates your statement about "negotiations" and possibilities that a crime was committed by the VFW commander. QuoteBottom line, the guy agreed to do it, isn't complaining about it now that he isn't taped to the flag pole. So logic dictates that he agreed to it and is fine with that decision. So, you're cool with him handling the plea negotiations himself, bypassing the legal system? What the post commander did is a textbook example of vigilantism. Do you also lack respect for the rule of law? If a rape/theft victim doesn't complain about or report the rape, does that imply that the rape/theft wasn't a crime? I once had my car stereo stolen and didn't report it. Does that mean the theft wasn't illegal? What you and a few others are forgetting is that there is nothing that says two people HAVE to use a court of law to resolve their issues. Court is usually when they CANNOT resolve their issues to both parties satisfaction. These two individuals came to an agreement that they were both satisfied with. (please save the rhetoric about coercion, etc, we've moved past that topic) I respect the law as much as any man, in fact, I've spent a good deal of my time defending those laws. The VFW commander is the only one in this situation that has a claim to a law being broken as his property was destroyed. Yet he handled the problem at the lowest level and found resolution that he and the offending party agreed upon. Lets no confuse this situation with rape or any other incident, deal with this one and the known facts. Trying to compare the two and your reference to it and your car radio question is circular logic that really has no relevance to this topic. I shouldn't have to explain the differences between rape and this incident as I give you and everyone else the benefit of the doubt that you have enough intelligence to clearly differentiate between the two....until you prove otherwise."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #122 September 30, 2009 QuoteQuote - wrongful detention: The guy agreed to it - possibly kidnapping: The guy agreed to it Regardless of right/wrong issues, I don't think that defense works in court. Dr. Kevorkian? Please refer to my post above. There is no comparing this incident to Dr. Kevorkian , rape or any other incident."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #123 September 30, 2009 Quote What you and a few others are forgetting is that there is nothing that says two people HAVE to use a court of law to resolve their issues. Court is usually when they CANNOT resolve their issues to both parties satisfaction. These two individuals came to an agreement that they were both satisfied with. You might have a point if the resolution was payment of restitution. That's not the case in this instance. Quote (please save the rhetoric about coercion, etc, we've moved past that topic) Just because you and others choose to ignore that important aspect doesn't mean that it isn't relevant to the discussion. Quote I respect the law as much as any man, in fact, I've spent a good deal of my time defending those laws. Then why ignore it this time? Quote The VFW commander is the only one in this situation that has a claim to a law being broken as his property was destroyed. Yet he handled the problem at the lowest level and found resolution that he and the offending party agreed upon practiced vigilantism. Fixed Quote Lets no confuse this situation with rape or any other incident, deal with this one and the known facts. I see. So you are advocating situational ethics. Got it. Quote Trying to compare the two and your reference to it and your car radio question is circular logic that really has no relevance to this topic. Please, explain how it is "circular logic," please. Quote I shouldn't have to explain the differences between rape and this incident as I give you and everyone else the benefit of the doubt that you have enough intelligence to clearly differentiate between the two....until you prove otherwise. I fail to see how applying standards uniformly shows a lack of intelligence. Perhaps you can explain that to us, also. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #124 September 30, 2009 QuoteSee attached standards and assessment tools. You selected your level of satisfaction by your inaction. Either you lacked the will to pursue legal action or you lacked either the resources or the balls to pursue personal action. Either way, you decided to be satisfied.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #125 September 30, 2009 Quote Quote See attached standards and assessment tools. You selected your level of satisfaction by your inaction. Either you lacked the will to pursue legal action or you lacked either the resources or the balls to pursue personal action. Either way, you decided to be satisfied. Thanks for showing everybody that you just don't get it. It saves me the time! Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
