VFW members duct tape flag burner to flag pole

[rehmwa 2]

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Certainly I am not condoning the crime this guy committed, but by allowing himself to being taped to a flag pole he actually did his cause more justice and the VFW unwittingly supported his protest methodology.

I follow this logic - even well meaning personal action in terms of addressing crimes can have unintended consequences -

But I doubt this one incident would have any effect on whatever the guy's "cause" was. I suspect the 'message' is as follows "I'm a drunk asshole that doesn't respect private property and I thought burning something would be cool and might help me score" in the end, that's all these guys are really about.

it's one reason why justice needs to be met coldly and dispassionately and with consistency - and ESPECIALLY without the victims taking part


I don't have a huge issue with the VFW guys in practice for this specific item (much like having some kid come over and mow the lawn for a few weeks after he TPs one's yard), but I do have a big issue with the concept of what they did - though legal and fine. It's a bit difficult to reconcile.

I'd have preferred the story gone like this - "asshole burns flag at VFW - flag has great personal/sentimental meaning to members - members track down guy, inform police, and police make arrest - asshole serves jail time and court requires asshole to make large restitution to VFW"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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Yay, vigilante justice?

You didn't actually watch the video did you?

The guy VOLUNTEERED to be taped to the flag pole.
The VFW Commander is protecting the guys identity to prevent real harm to him or his family.

I would actually agree with you 100% if they did it without his permission... but in this case you went off half cocked without the facts.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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vigilantism. The act of a citizen who takes the law into his or her own hands by apprehending and punishing suspected criminals.

He didn't "apprehend" him. He went to him and talked to him. The guy AGREED to be taped to the flag pole.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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If a kid beats up another kid, twists his arm and says he'll let him go if the victim says "uncle," is that an agreement or coercion?

That would be coercion. It would make this act illegal. If that happened.

Well, the VFW member said he tracked the guy down and they came to an "agreement" and while I can see a person agreeing to holding a sandwich board sign with some embarrassing statement on it, I have difficulty believing a person is going to agree to being duct taped to a flag pole for six hours in the sun.

When I was a 12 year old hell raiser I pushed over a vending machine at a golf course. I was confronted the next morning and offered the option of facing charges or working off the damages. I opted to spend the day working for the golf course emptying trash, washing carts, etc.
Very similar situation here. Please tell me where, in either situation, a law was broken or rights violated by anyone other than the vandal?

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[BDashe 0]

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If I was the guy that got duct taped, I'd be filing kidnapping charges...

Ah, you're one of 'those.' You burn a flag, everyone else pays for it. Same person that is the reason McDonald's now has to label every inch of their coffee cups with "Caution: HOT" warnings. Lawsuit for everything. Thank you for ruining America, and for that fine sense of humor of yours.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[futuredivot 0]

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If I was the guy that got duct taped, I'd be filing kidnapping charges

If you let a bunch of old guys tape you to a pole I'd hope you'd be too emabarrassed to tell anyone.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[justinb138 0]

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I'd have preferred the story gone like this - "asshole burns flag at VFW - flag has great personal/sentimental meaning to members - members track down guy, inform police, and police make arrest - asshole serves jail time and court requires asshole to make large restitution to VFW"

I might have as well, but I doubt it would have.

My guess would have been:

"asshole burns flag at VFW - flag has great personal/sentimental meaning to members - members track down guy, inform police, who might possibly make an arrest - asshole gets no jail time and minimal probation and court requires asshole to make minimal restitution to VFW, which he never does".

I can't blame them for keeping it out of the courts.

[quade 4]

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Yay, vigilante justice?

You didn't actually watch the video did you?
The guy VOLUNTEERED to be taped to the flag pole.
The VFW Commander is protecting the guys identity to prevent real harm to him or his family.
I would actually agree with you 100% if they did it without his permission... but in this case you went off half cocked without the facts.

You didn't actually read what I wrote did you?

I'm so glad you're able to make a judgement with 100% confidence based on one side of the story.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Misternatural 0]

>I suspect the 'message' is as follows.....

This happened practically in my back yard, I will keep tabs on it but I would like to hear an interview of the perp himself. Alcohol has a way of putting peoples inhibitions into action to resolve hidden gripes. I would be interested to know if there were any underlying ideological motives he may have had and why he chose such strong symbolism, but you may be right it could have been %100 poor judgement and impulsiveness on his part.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[downwardspiral 0]

I don't personally have a problem with resolving an issue without involving the police providing it is resolved non-violently and no crimes were commited in the process. Quade has a point since the options weren't reported and knowing vets the way I do, I'm not sure involving the police was an option.

The other option was left out for a reason imo.

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[justinb138 0]

I'm trying to understand how he could remain taped to the flag pole for six hours without police involvement if he hadn't volunteered to do it.

[Ron 10]

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You didn't actually read what I wrote did you?

I read every word of it before I made a single post to you.

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I'm so glad you're able to make a judgement with 100% confidence based on one side of the story.

You switched to that tact after you found your first attempt was ill conceived.

And for the record YOU jumped the gun and made a judgement about the vigilantes without the whole story either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jcd11235 0]

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he places higher priority on a symbol than he does the first amendment

And I applaud Joe Wilson for placing a higher priority on free speech and truth than on a symbol or an office but I doubt you agree with me on that one.

Public officials sacrifice some of their free speech rights. Arguably, Wilson's outburst would not have passed the Pickering-Connick test, and thus was not protected free speech. Thus, the House acted properly when exercising their legitimate authority to address Congressman Wilson's behavior.

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[quade 4]

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And for the record YOU jumped the gun and made a judgement about the vigilantes without the whole story either.

That's because even IF the guy actually agreed to it, it can still be kidnapping and coercion.

Draw it out in game theory. There's absolutely something wrong with the story and 100% of the time it fall into vigilantism.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 10]

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That's because even IF the guy actually agreed to it, it can still be kidnapping and coercion.

Only if he did it against his will... you don't know this, but you claimed the VFW were vigilantes. Without the data you jump all over the rest of us, but you did it too.

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There's absolutely something wrong with the story and 100% of the time it fall into vigilantism.

You are free to think that way, but it does not make it true. It could easily be the case of a drunk guy doing something stupid and feeling bad about it. Or it could be that he knew he would face more pain by going to court over the issue.

Either way, you don't have all the facts and jumped to a conclusion and bitched at us for doing the same.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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> would be interested to know if there were any underlying ideological motives he may have had and why he chose such strong symbolism,

the is no underlying ideological motives - that's just the excuse asswipes like this use after the fact

Oh, I keyed your car. Damn, well I have the right to free speech and this is how I'm expressing it. I'm outraged about, uhhhhh, health care, yeah, that's it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

Ron, the facts as represented by the VFW member himself makes the entire thing vigilantism.

He took the law into his own hands, tracked the guy down and dealt a punishment. That is the definition of vigilantism.

Even without what I suspect as there being a heavy dose of coercion, perhaps arm twisting and a threat to take it to the police, it still is vigilantism 100% by definition.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jcd11235 0]

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Only if he did it against his will... you don't know this, but you claimed the VFW were vigilantes.

Last time I heard, even plea agreements had to be approved by the courts. The story didn't mention the VFW post commander being a judge.

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[Ron 10]

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Ron, the facts as represented by the VFW member himself makes the entire thing vigilantism.

Nonsense.

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He took the law into his own hands, tracked the guy down and dealt a punishment. That is the definition of vigilantism.

They guy did it of his own free will... you keep forgetting that.

You can continue to feel that way, but it does not make it right. This is just another example of you taking the antagonistic side on ANY issue that deals with the military or former military.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lucky... 0]

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This incident proves your statement to be false. Your statement is predicated on the assumption that a law was broken and or that it involves violence. There is nothing to indicate that the VFW Commander broke any laws or used violence to get the one person who did break a law to agree to be taped to the flag pole.

You can sit there and pound your hand on the table and demand the hard line of the law wasn't broken, hence no crime.

We don't have witness statements here and can't see any evidence but that of which was given by the flag owner. Truth of the matter is, base dupon what we all know, the flag burner could be cited and arrested for at least:

- vandalism
- disorderly conduct
- endangerment
- open fire w/o a permit (or something to that effect)

The flag owner could be cited and arrested for at least:

- wrongful detention
- possibly kidnapping
- endangerment

Even if all partoes agreed to what happened, the taped individual was placed in danger for 6 hours, so the alleged agreement does not absolve anyone on either side. Remember, it was a crime against teh state on both ends.

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I think they probably handled it like gentlemen and the VFW Commander gave the guy two options, one more than likely involved the Police and the other was being taped to the flag pole.

I see, so my assumptions are all fucked up, but we should rally around your, "I think..." Truth is that a number of obvious crimes took place, they could both be arrested. Volunteering, as the flag owner states, doesn't mean he would have wanted to and it doesn't mean the burner wasn't placed in danger, he was.

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The fact that the VFW Commander wants the mans identity to remain anonymous is a good indicator that the two probably came to an agreement in a civil manner.

So now we have to accept your, "probably" as well? You apparently think the world of your views, everyone else's are just wrong.

How about this, the flag owner may want to limit his liability, civilly and criminally by keeping the man's identity unknown.

[futuredivot 0]

Two sides resolved a situation without resorting to violence, passing any noticable expense to society, or causing physical harm. Sounds like maturity to me. I still think that whenever possible people should solve their own problems and not be such tit fed pussies that some authority has to constantly play big brother.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Misternatural 0]

>the is no underlying ideological motives - that's just the excuse asswipes like this use after the fact.

hmmm, how do you know?
I'm not so sure that you are not taking this particular act personally by making such a broad accusatory statement- now would you be reacting like this if he actually keyed a car instead....I think the symbolism has significance, if not for the perp himself then the VFW certainly raised an issue about the US flag and free speech unwittingly by duct taping a person to it...because despite their disciplinary intentions- they used poor judgement in their action because the free speech issue can't get any more iconically symbolic in a negative way than tying a person to a flag pole with a sign on their chest.

come on man...I know you're smarter than this- sell it to me.

edit;spelling

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[JohnnyD 0]

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Ron, the facts as represented by the VFW member himself makes the entire thing vigilantism.

Nonsense.

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He took the law into his own hands, tracked the guy down and dealt a punishment. That is the definition of vigilantism.

They guy did it of his own free will... you keep forgetting that.

You can continue to feel that way, but it does not make it right. This is just another example of you taking the antagonistic side on ANY issue that deals with the military or former military.

Is Dr. Kevorkian not in prison for assisting someone to commit suicide? Did that person not actually perform the procedure of their own free will?
Yes and yes.
Sometimes in life, we do things that we know will come with consequences. Some people will avoid things because of the consequences and some people will think the risk is worth it. The VFW guys obviously thought the potential consequences were worth it. I don't see a problem.

[jcd11235 0]

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Two sides resolved a situation without resorting to violence, passing any noticable expense to society, or causing physical harm. Sounds like maturity to me. I still think that whenever possible people should solve their own problems and not be such tit fed pussies that some authority has to constantly play big brother.

Looking at it like that would mean that the VFW effectively sold the rights to burn their flag one time, and there was no vandalism. If any ordinances were violated due to the actual fire, the VFW commander was an accomplice.

No matter how you look at it, the VFW post commander showed a lack of respect for the rule of law, not maturity.

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[JohnnyD 0]

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Sounds like maturity to me

Taping someone to a flag pole sounds like maturity to you? Um.....ok.