VFW members duct tape flag burner to flag pole

[nanook 1]

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acting as a vigilante

Are you saying he was a vigilante here? He isn't one till he actually breaks a law in his course of action. My wife recently confronted a guy trying to steal a cooler out of the back of my truck. She politely told him to leave it alone. Did her action deem her a vigilante?

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[jcd11235 0]

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Are you saying he was a vigilante here? He isn't one till he actually breaks a law in his course of action. My wife recently confronted a guy trying to steal a cooler out of the back of my truck. She politely told him to leave it alone. Did her action deem her a vigilante?

Did you watch the video? The post commander didn't catch the vandal in the act and stop him. He tracked him down days later to punish him, without police or the court system. That is vigilantism.

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[nanook 1]

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Are you saying he was a vigilante here? He isn't one till he actually breaks a law in his course of action. My wife recently confronted a guy trying to steal a cooler out of the back of my truck. She politely told him to leave it alone. Did her action deem her a vigilante?

Did you watch the video? The post commander didn't catch the vandal in the act and stop him. He tracked him down days later to punish him, without police or the court system. That is vigilanteism.

No it isn't. What law did he break?

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Lucky... 0]

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I've learned that, in my experience, you don't mess with old men. "You know, on two years I'm gonna be in a nursing home. Or, I could be in prison. I'll take prison."

They are old and a life sentence doesn't mean much to them. They've spent 65 years holding back memories of hand to hand combat with the Japs at Pelleliu. They've spent 40 years holding back aggression at seeing the offsping of the guys they wish they'd killed in Da Nang when they had a chance every time they go out to get some smokes.

And some peacenik is gonna come out and burn a flag in front of guys that have been saying for decades, "somebody give me a reason..."

Now, it doesn't excuse what they did. But sometimes folks should do risk assessments.

It just reeks of irony; these guys died and sacrificed for liberty.....now they commit assault when people excercize those liberties.

[jcd11235 0]

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Are you saying he was a vigilante here? He isn't one till he actually breaks a law in his course of action. My wife recently confronted a guy trying to steal a cooler out of the back of my truck. She politely told him to leave it alone. Did her action deem her a vigilante?

Did you watch the video? The post commander didn't catch the vandal in the act and stop him. He tracked him down days later to punish him, without police or the court system. That is vigilantism.

No it isn't. What law did he break?

Yes, it was an act of vigilantism. From Black's Law Dictionary:

vigilantism. The act of a citizen who takes the law into his or her own hands by apprehending and punishing suspected criminals.

I saw no reason to infer that the VFW post commander is a law enforcement officer or a judge. Did you?

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[Lucky... 0]

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OK, so what in your opinion would be a good way to handle this situation?

Hold the guy until cops get there. Simple really.

Depending upon the state, but illegal detention could be the crime here too. Usually kidnapping requires moving the victim a few feet. You can't always hold the suspect for cops, unless you are a cop.

[Lucky... 0]

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OK, so what in your opinion would be a good way to handle this situation?

Hold the guy until cops get there. Simple really.

Ok, fair enough answer. Unfortunately most of us live in the real world where not everything has to be settled by lawyers in a court room.

Another irony; people who decide to handle things out of a courtroom, will end up handling things in a courtroom.

[Krip 2]

Now that I've had the benifit of reading everyones opinions I'm almost surprised at some of the statements about the lack of due process to the poor misguided drunk that may even be innocent.

But this is speakers corner so there will always someone willing to take the opposite side. SOP

Based on what I've read the flag that got burned wasn't just a flag but one with a significant connection to a event in iraq. Did the perp know that he wasn't just burning any flag? Probably not,, but to bad for the perp the damage is done.

Law rocket hit the nail on the head, some vets and their friends and families are wound up tight. Others are reaching a age where a sentence over a few yrs would be meaningless.

When I first read the subject title I was afraid that after the perp was duct taped to the pole he had been set on fire.

IMO The people at the VFW showed a lot of restraint in dealing with the alleged perp.

To bad some Lawyer missed out on a paycheck to defend the perps rights.

Lesson learned don't mess with the flag, don't mess with vets,

One Jump Wonder

[Lucky... 0]

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I'm at a loss here as your reply doesn't jive with what transpired. What law is it you think the VFW commander broke? The only one who clearly broke a law was the man who agreed to be taped to the flag pole.

When the VFW post commander said, ""To disgrace the American flag, we can't tolerate that," it shows that he places higher priority on a symbol than he does the first amendment. If he had complained about private property being destroyed, that would have been a little bit different.

Instead of utilizing police services, the commander tracked the man down himself, as a vigilante. We'll never know what choices the man was given, or when they were given, so we'll likely never know exactly what laws were broken, if any.

When I served, I swore to defend the Constitution, not to protect the flag. Part of defending the Constitution is defending the right to desecrate the flag.

Didn't the flag belong to the VFW? The kid burned someone else's property. I can't have someone burning my gear. It wouldn't be protected by the 1st amendment either because it's mine. Would that be a different situation?

No, it's vandalism. If it were attached to a structure, an occupied structure esp, he would be looking at damn near life.

On one side we have vandalism, the other we have some form of illegal/wrongful detention.

The 1st issues on both sides are kinda irrelevant IMO.

[nanook 1]

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vigilantism. The act of a citizen who takes the law into his or her own hands by apprehending and punishing suspected criminals

Exactly. this as definition, is illegal. What happened in the news report wasn't. Punishing, as in this definition, a suspected criminal outside the courts is wrong. The "punish" in the news report is a word thrown around by sensationalistic news reporter and an old guy who used the verb to describe the agreement both parties agreed to. Nothing illegal happened here.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

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vigilantism. The act of a citizen who takes the law into his or her own hands by apprehending and punishing suspected criminals

Exactly. this as definition, is illegal. What happened in the news report wasn't. Punishing, as in this definition, a suspected criminal outside the courts is wrong. The "punish" in the news report is a word thrown around by sensationalistic news reporter and an old guy who used the verb to describe the agreement both parties agreed to. Nothing illegal happened here.

I don't know what their local laws are. I can't/won't assume that vigilantism is illegal in that jurisdiction. It is, however, an affront to the rule of law, even if it isn't an explicit violation of law.

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[quade 4]

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Nothing illegal happened here.

At a very minimum, the story wasn't in depth enough to even determine that.

If a kid beats up another kid, twists his arm and says he'll let him go if the victim says "uncle," is that an agreement or coercion?

The fact is that by the VFW member withholding the name and the reporter not pursuing the other side of the story you have no real way of knowing if it was an agreement or the VFW member is simply being cute. In fact, you have no way of knowing if the story is even real. It's entirely possible that the VFW member performing some sort of hoax to get the result a few people here have stated, "don't mess with old white guys."

If I was a cop in that town, I think I'd have to at the very least investigate it. I'm embarrassed the reporter didn't.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nanook 1]

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If a kid beats up another kid, twists his arm and says he'll let him go if the victim says "uncle," is that an agreement or coercion?

That would be coercion. It would make this act illegal. If that happened.

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The fact is that by the VFW member withholding the name and the reporter not pursuing the other side of the story you have no real way of knowing if it was an agreement or the VFW member is simply being cute.

Or. . if there was an attorney involved, or the reporter found the other party's side of the story lacking in newsworthiness.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[LouDiamond 1]

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OK, so what in your opinion would be a good way to handle this situation?

Hold the guy until cops get there. Simple really.

Ok, fair enough answer. Unfortunately most of us live in the real world where not everything has to be settled by lawyers in a court room.

Another irony; people who decide to handle things out of a courtroom, will end up handling things in a courtroom.

This incident proves your statement to be false. Your statement is predicated on the assumption that a law was broken and or that it involves violence. There is nothing to indicate that the VFW Commander broke any laws or used violence to get the one person who did break a law to agree to be taped to the flag pole. I think they probably handled it like gentlemen and the VFW Commander gave the guy two options, one more than likely involved the Police and the other was being taped to the flag pole.

The fact that the VFW Commander wants the mans identity to remain anonymous is a good indicator that the two probably came to an agreement in a civil manner.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[quade 4]

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If a kid beats up another kid, twists his arm and says he'll let him go if the victim says "uncle," is that an agreement or coercion?

That would be coercion. It would make this act illegal. If that happened.

Well, the VFW member said he tracked the guy down and they came to an "agreement" and while I can see a person agreeing to holding a sandwich board sign with some embarrassing statement on it, I have difficulty believing a person is going to agree to being duct taped to a flag pole for six hours in the sun.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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. . . or the reporter found the other party's side of the story lacking in newsworthiness.

That simply doesn't make sense. Putting a "cop blur" on a face and disguising a voice is trivial and it makes for a MUCH better story for the perp to confess on air. So, I doubt newsworthiness is an issue.

Laziness maybe.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Lefty 0]

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Well, the VFW member said he tracked the guy down and they came to an "agreement" and while I can see a person agreeing to holding a sandwich board sign with some embarrassing statement on it, I have difficulty believing a person is going to agree to being duct taped to a flag pole for six hours in the sun.

There's something people are missing here. Why was the man not turned loose by one of the people passing by? If the man himself wasn't telling people to leave him bound, some scrupulous passer-by would have called the police or cut the tape. The act took place in public and in daylight. It seems the guy who burned the flag took his punishment like a man. No crime was committed here (except the property burning, of course).

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[quade 4]

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There's something people are missing here. Why was the man not turned loose by one of the people passing by? If the man himself wasn't telling people to leave him bound, some scrupulous passer-by would have called the police or cut the tape. The act took place in public and in daylight. It seems the guy who burned the flag took his punishment like a man. No crime was committed here (except the property burning, of course).

You're presuming that the street is well trafficked enough, that he'd be visible and wouldn't feel compelled to say what ever his captors wanted him to say.

Here's a map of the place;
http://maps.google.com/?q=Poplar%20Ave+Valley%20Falls,+NY+12185&ll=42.9034075,-73.5633875&z=15&marker=42.9034075,-73.5633875&iow=addr

Pretty sure nobody but VFW members even saw him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Lefty 0]

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You're presuming that the street is well trafficked enough, that he'd be visible and wouldn't feel compelled to say what ever his captors wanted him to say.

Here's a map of the place;
http://maps.google.com/?q=Poplar%20Ave+Valley%20Falls,+NY+12185&ll=42.9034075,-73.5633875&z=15&marker=42.9034075,-73.5633875&iow=addr

Pretty sure nobody but VFW members even saw him.

The reporter mentioned "passer-bys taking pictures like this one" (the one they used in the news footage). Would you have called the police if you had seen a man taped to a flag pole? Would you have asked the guy if he was OK? Do you think the guy would be so intimidated by the old vets that he believed not even the police could save him from their wrath?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[nanook 1]

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. . . or the reporter found the other party's side of the story lacking in newsworthiness.

That simply doesn't make sense. Putting a "cop blur" on a face and disguising a voice is trivial and it makes for a MUCH better story for the perp to confess on air. So, I doubt newsworthiness is an issue.

Laziness maybe.

Are you seeing another news show than the one originally posted? There is no disguising of any voice. The whole video of the guy taped up is a photo, not actual footage by the news team.

It doesn't mean that they didn't interview him personally for his side of the story.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

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. . . or the reporter found the other party's side of the story lacking in newsworthiness.

That simply doesn't make sense. Putting a "cop blur" on a face and disguising a voice is trivial and it makes for a MUCH better story for the perp to confess on air. So, I doubt newsworthiness is an issue.

Laziness maybe.

Are you seeing another news show than the one originally posted? There is no disguising of any voice. The whole video of the guy taped up is a photo, not actual footage by the news team.

It doesn't mean that they didn't interview him personally for his side of the story.

You've misinterpreted what I wrote. I wrote these are things they could have been done to let the viewers know that the story was as the VFW member claimed it was and tell the person taped to the pole side of the story.

There simply was no effort demonstrated to do that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[futuredivot 0]

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If you're not confused you must be mistaken because there ain't no making sense of all this.

Please please fix all of my problems for me!! I can't take care of myself. Geesh-go Old Guys

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[futuredivot 0]

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he places higher priority on a symbol than he does the first amendment

And I applaud Joe Wilson for placing a higher priority on free speech and truth than on a symbol or an office but I doubt you agree with me on that one.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[rehmwa 2]

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If a kid beats up another kid, twists his arm and says he'll let him go if the victim says "uncle," is that an agreement or coercion?

That would be coercion. It would make this act illegal. If that happened.

Well, the VFW member said he tracked the guy down and they came to an "agreement" and while I can see a person agreeing to holding a sandwich board sign with some embarrassing statement on it, I have difficulty believing a person is going to agree to being duct taped to a flag pole for six hours in the sun.

without more info - I can see it on the VFW side. They tracked the guy down and offered him the "public option" vs pressing charges - this could have happened over the phone for all we know

this is not coercion, this is a verbal contract

however, in terms of strict justice where society handles all aspects of law - the only 'vigilantism' that the VFW participated in was not reporting the crime to the proper authorities immediately

there is no crime with entering into a contract

there is no crime tracking down someone and having a conversation


frankly, the asshole should have gone to jail and fined for for the crime (vandalism, arson) and then should have gone to civil court for the value of the flag (including it's personal value as a unique personal item - which should have been huge)

the VFW guys gave this guy a HUGE break

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Misternatural 0]

Here's the rub I think

I face a lot of what I consider to be overzealous nationalism in my town. People who hold the "stand with us or stand against us mentality". Now I grew up with a father who spent 2 years in a Nazi prison camp as an allied POW, he got to observe some of his captors society first hand and noticed how a citizenry can be coerced into following the edict of a military regime. We saw the results of the ensuing atrocities.....not judging the people, but always telling me to be on guard for nationalistic mob mentality, it is very insidious ....it starts with National pride, which is fine but that can lead to an almost worship level of patriotic adoration,especially when people have sacrificed their lives in the process of defending "the cause". This leads to a process of singling non supporters out and publicly making an example of them, He always told me, if you don't think it can happen here, ask any German citizen of the time how easy it was to go there.

Certainly I am not condoning the crime this guy committed, but by allowing himself to being taped to a flag pole he actually did his cause more justice and the VFW unwittingly supported his protest methodology.


I get accused of not being patriotic all the time because even though I registered, I never served, don't have a flag outside my house (all my neighbors do) and I hold some socially liberal ideals. My answer is that I have enough people to fight in my own back yard who are much more of a direct threat to my intrinsic rights, survival and well being.

>Arm yourself because no one else here will save you

I hear ya.


edit;grammar

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