VFW members duct tape flag burner to flag pole

[LouDiamond 1]

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I have a BS in Justice, was a process server for a decade and am now taking paralegal courses. I've spent months watching trials as well. My legal understanding dwarfs yours.

Well, allow me to expound.Process Server ID Card to prove it.

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Apparently you stop *trying* to direct your posts at fact when you drink.....explains much.

OK, here are some facts for you. When I say facts, I mean as they occur in the REAL WORLD, where everyone else lives.

FACT 1: Neither of the parties pressed any charges against the other.

FACT 2: The person who was taped to the flag pole has not come forward to say anything different to what we already know.

FACT 3: You are making assumptions and reading into what you think happened despite not having anything to substantiate those claims.

FACT 4: You have an issue with authority figures.

FACT 5: Despite being presented with the facts, you will not change your position or admit that your version of what transpired cannot be substantiated and is therefore a fabrication of your imagination.


I could keep going on but I am starting to get thirsty and need to step away from the keyboard to take a drink of my Guinness.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Like I said, I'm not here to try and get you to change your position. I'm simply observing the weaving of your tale.

When Lucky had the OPTION of joining the military he really means he was COERCED.

Why else would he have joined?

Psssst, we all know everyone is really out to get him so lets act like it is not so.

He won't know what happened.

[quade 4]

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OK, here are some facts for you. When I say facts, I mean as they occur in the REAL WORLD, where everyone else lives.

I swore I wasn't going to get dragged back down into this hell hole of a thread, but you've used the phrase "REAL WORLD" several times now and it's bullshit.

You may have a different life experience and you may disagree with Lucky or me or somebody else, but to claim that you live in the "REAL WOLRD" and other people don't is bullshit plain and simple.

Your opinion of this is no more "REAL WORLD" than anybody else's.

And that, is a fact.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[LouDiamond 1]

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OK, here are some facts for you. When I say facts, I mean as they occur in the REAL WORLD, where everyone else lives.

I swore I wasn't going to get dragged back down into this hell hole of a thread, but you've used the phrase "REAL WORLD" several times now and it's bullshit.

You may have a different life experience and you may disagree with Lucky or me or somebody else, but to claim that you live in the "REAL WOLRD" and other people don't is bullshit plain and simple.

Your opinion of this is no more "REAL WORLD" than anybody else's.

And that, is a fact.

Paul, I know it may be hard for you to grasp as I think you actually think along the same lines as Lucky on this matter. When I say real world, I mean just that, what has actually transpired in this issue in the world where we all live. Everyone who has participated in this thread to include BillVon has pretty much said the same thing in several different way to Lucky and others who think similarly, that despite what they think happened, there is nothing to prove otherwise other than what we know.

Those who are sworn to uphold and enforce the law, aka the police, have not filed any charges which they would be obligated to do, especially with the level of exposure this incident has garnered. Neither of the parties involved in this incident have filed charges against one another for anything that we know or do not know about what transpired. There is nothing to substantiate that anything that Lucky has claimed occurred, actually did, other than what we know. Neither you, lucky, myself or anyone else in this thread is a lawyer. Well, let me caveat that, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

So for everyone else who has realized this and doesn't see people in the shadows, that is the real world, the here and now, the way it has played out LEGALLY. Thats my world and based on my life experiences, I know it to be real as do others.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Lucky... 0]

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Right. So like all the rest of the article, it's what some guy said.

It's the media's direct quote "" "" of what the old guy from the VFW said, pretty reliable as it is libel if wrong. The quotes make it believable. Whereas we have NOTHING from the kid, but you are willing to buy into assumptions or what the old guy said he said: hearsay.

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No hard evidence, no. Other than what some guy said. Just as there is no evidence that there was any coercion. Other than what you THINK some guy said.

1) No evidence the kid burned the flag, in fact, Clem even said said: "I found him on Sunday and I duct taped him to the flag pole," Normile said bluntly. "He didn't deny it, said he was drunk. Let's just say he volunteered to sit out here duct taped to the pole."

That's redneck for: We fixed him real good (Deliverance banjos play in the background)

2) The young man was given three choices: get turned over to the police, go one-on-one in a fight with a seasoned war veteran, or be duct-taped to a flagpole for six hours with a sign around his neck identifying his alleged crime: flag burning.

Pretty compelling to me. If it was wrong it would make a real good libel suit, so if no retraction is posted or a suit is filed I think that's pretty reliable.

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So why are you sitting here blathering away on the Internet when you could hand a prosecutor a case he could fall asleep and win? Hmm. You have just posted, in your own words, that you could solve this problem once and for all - but you can't be bothered.

Yes, Bill, because I'm not willing to uproot my life, go to NY and fight this matter I have no legal standing in, the case somehow has no merit. That makes all kinds of sense. And because all of the attrocities that occur in Asia, Africa and elsewhere go unchecked by you, they really don't happen.

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But hey, I can understand that - because that would require you doing something in the real world rather than complaining on the Internet. So keep posting! I expect at least another 2000 words from you before tomorrow night.

And I expect you to continue to avoid the defintion of COERCION which I have posted numerous times, as it would be impossible to describe the actions of Clem and Jeb an not fall into it.

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Don't bother with what anyone actually said! Just make something up again. It's easy and fun, and will be no more or less accurate than anything else on this thread.

The IT was the definition of COERCION. As for more or less accurate, the media report is pretty compelling in that they can be sued if incorrect. And they call the kid an alleged flag burner but quote and cite Clem's actions. The kid can't sue over the Alleged and Clem can't sue unless they misquote him or misrepresent him.

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Of course; you've tried and convicted him. I mean, the trial would be a mere formality; you've posted 72 times about this on the Internet! That's proof positive of guilt for most people who live on the Net.

The IT, again, was the definition of COERCION.

Bill, I don't think I have seen you argue like this, normally you have the evidence and substance on your side ratherthan argue rhetoric and emotion. I guess everything has it's first time.

[Lucky... 0]

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Clarity of observation isn't one of your strong points is it?

Elusive behavior is yours. Not sure if you called me one or not, in my years if someone wanted to call me one they would just do it, so I assume you are not.

Lots of experience with people calling you a puss?

That sucks.

Nope, I'm just saying I'm used to dealing with men who would come out and say it to whomever rather than veiling some ridicilous 300 page rant and saying everything but that.

[Lucky... 0]

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YET, you continue to espouse the law as if you were a lawyer assuming the the rest of us have no grasp of the law.

My current teacher for my paralegal class in a prosecutor and has a private practice. I've dealt with lawyers, sat in on 6-month trial recently, has many, many lawyer teachers, etc. Not to mention a BS in Justice.

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What you are doing is commonly known in the military as a "shit house lawyer".

And in jails, same thing and they are constitutionally protected as being able to practice in that realm. Of course I did win a civil case against 2 law firms in a Conversion case pro per, but of course you know whatthat means........Lou goes and looks it up real fast...... of course I know what conversion is. Oh and collect? Yes, I got a certified copy of the judgment with an information letteer and posted it with the county recorder. But that's just me being a shithouse lawyer who wins against lawyers and othe professionals....what do I know?

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So your legal understanding,even though you think it dwarfs everyones else's, carries no more weight than the next guy.

Hardly. If we took a legal IQ test I would tripple most people here other than the lawyers on the forum. Your idea is like saying a jumper with 1000 jumps is no more experienced thana jumper with 100 jumps.

Also, the fact that no one is touching the definition of COERCION says plenty.

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But just so you know, I'm ALSO a process server. I even have a Process Server ID Card to prove it

Hillarious. I have 3 spanning 3 years each.

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FACT 1: Neither of the parties pressed any charges against the other.

PRESS CHARGES shows your naivety. The crime belongs to the state, not to you or him in this case. The PRESSING of charges term just shows the desire of the reporting individual. As well, you don't know that the kid hasn't visited the cops or doesn't have the desire to press.

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FACT 2: The person who was taped to the flag pole has not come forward to say anything different to what we already know.

That we know of. That means all rape victims who didn't report also weren't raped as they were too afraid to face their abusers.

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FACT 3: You are making assumptions and reading into what you think happened despite not having anything to substantiate those claims.

I posted what I read, how have I gone outside that? You have made assumptions.

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FACT 4: You have an issue with authority figures.

Wrong, I am the one saying the legal process is the correct one, you are promoting do-it-yourself justice. Further evidence you are out of gas is that you are turning this to me rather than keeping it to the issue.

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FACT 5: Despite being presented with the facts, you will not change your position or admit that your version of what transpired cannot be substantiated and is therefore a fabrication of your imagination.

Again, show me how I've deviated from the news printings. I've obviously dviated from the DZ.COM good ole boy club, but show how I've taken what is written and deviated.

[Lucky... 0]

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Like I said, I'm not here to try and get you to change your position. I'm simply observing the weaving of your tale.

When Lucky had the OPTION of joining the military he really means he was COERCED.

Why else would he have joined?

Psssst, we all know everyone is really out to get him so lets act like it is not so.

He won't know what happened.

I was 17, no one threatened me to be beat down or go in, that was a voluntary event. You guys are desperate.

[Lucky... 0]

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Those who are sworn to uphold and enforce the law, aka the police, have not filed any charges which they would be obligated to do, especially with the level of exposure this incident has garnered.

To use your term, you don't live in the real world. I have had cases refused to be written by high-level cops/detectives.

Here's a scenario from 20 years ago:

I was a civilian working at an Air Force Base in ND. I was dating a girl and there was a complicated love quadrangle that finally burst, it involved a set of twins of whom I had been with both and the BF of the other was pissed, volumes more info. Anyway, I was sitting in a Burger King on the AFB at lunch and the two nuts came in, he was pissed talking shit, standing above me as I sat eating. I ignored him and he then fired an uppercut and blew my face open. I then spun around in my chair, got up, grabbed the chair and launched it at him. He blocked it and it broke his arm. I grabbed another one and was gonna come over the top and be done with him, but I thought for a second and realized he had retreated and that was what I wanted, I put the 2nd chair down.

Cops come out, take the reports from the 30 guests in the restarant, arrest him and I get stitches. Go to talk to the prosecutor and she said she didn't want to prosecute, I said I would go to the AG, she then said she would put on some lame prosecution against him and really come after me. I said I wanted to see the witness statements she was huddled on top of. She said, "you will never see these."

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, LOU BABY, TRY NOT TO GET IN THE WAY OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS. Just have another beer and post for fun. The alleged crime belongs to the state, they can take a report on it or refuse to, they can prosecute it or refuse to. I think the fact that the twins went to the prosecutor to lie their ass off had an impact as well as the fact that we were transient working temp in that area. However, if it weren't buttfuck ND, not unlike this BF town, I think there would be a prosecution.

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Neither of the parties involved in this incident have filed charges against one another for anything that we know or do not know about what transpired.

LOU, once again telling us how much you don't know. CITIZENS CANNOT FILE CHARGES, THEY MUST MAKE A POLICE REPORT AND HOPE THE PROSECUTOR FILES THEM, whether a direct file or by a Grand Jury via a True Bill, of course the latter is used for more serious felonies. But of course you knew that.

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Thats my world and based on my life experiences, I know it to be real as do others.

And I'm sure you have vast life experiences, just not in the legal arena.

[TankBuster 0]

It's more accurate when I change the punctuation.

Your own words are confusing you.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[futuredivot 0]

Now that I've read your side-I'd like to hear the truth.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Lucky... 0]

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It's more accurate when I change the punctuation.

Your own words are confusing you.

Make a point or move along...... or just keep posting to keep the clique happy.

[Lucky... 0]

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Now that I've read your side-I'd like to hear the truth.

http://instantrimshot.com/

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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You keep forgetting that the kid was also offered the option of letting the legal system deal with it....a perfectly legal option which, by its inclusion, made the other two options also perfectly legal activities if the kid had chosen either one of them.

That doesn't mitigate the coercion. And again, we have to believe the hunter and abductor. I believe most of what he says, but no one says, "fight a vet" they say, we can kick your ass or we can tape you to a pole. Either way it doesn't matter, all that matters is once violence is an option, that person is under the intimidation of the criminals. I'm ok with it that you can't see that, but it is a legal standard and of teh many trials I've seen, that would fly as an element of threats, intimidation, coercion.

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It is very simple...maybe too simple for you to grasp...that the kid chose against letting the courts settle the dispute, a place where he could have plead innocent and not been taped or beaten. This was offered to him and he turned it down in favor of being taped.

Based on the words of the guy who tracked this kiid down, likely a group of them, and taped him to a pole with a sign that endangered him from angry passersby. Again, once intimidation was introduced, everything from that point was coerced, doesn't matter if they offered him a trip to Disneyland.

You still don't get it, do you?
The kid admitted to what he did and chose his punishment, one of several options including one that did not include the vets in any way. He has thus far declined to press any charges or complain about his treatment in any way. Just because they offered him the option of fighting doesn't mean any laws were broken.
Let's say I gave you three choices. I offer you (a) nothing at all or (b) two million dollars or (c) an asskicking. According to your fantasy land logic I would have broken the law.
The kid has decided to not say anything, which you are somehow taking as a sign that he has been intimidated so much he is afraid to talk even to the national media.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rushmc 23]

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Like I said, I'm not here to try and get you to change your position. I'm simply observing the weaving of your tale.

Ah, "fairy" tale!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lucky... 0]

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The kid admitted to what he did and chose his punishment, one of several options including one that did not include the vets in any way.

No he didn't, Clem said he didn't deny it; are you not able to read? A d let's see, Clem might be likely to embellish his way a bit.

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He has thus far declined to press any charges or complain about his treatment in any way.

How do you know? He may have tried to, he may just want to get this behind him. I think we can agree that he didn't want to be taped to the pole.

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Just because they offered him the option of fighting doesn't mean any laws were broken.

The vets gave him the ultimatum of 3 things of which at least 1 was violence, that's garden variety coercion to say the least.

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Let's say I gave you three choices. I offer you (a) nothing at all or (b) two million dollars or (c) an asskicking. According to your fantasy land logic I would have broken the law.

Very abstract. What if you give me an ultimatum and it includes all derogatory things, 1 of which is violence? That's coercion and others.

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The kid has decided to not say anything, which you are somehow taking as a sign that he has been intimidated so much he is afraid to talk even to the national media.

We don't know his actions or wishes. We know the thugs went to the house and took this kid out and taped him to a pole, and that an ultimatum was given to play ball or a beating was possible.

[Lucky... 0]

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Like I said, I'm not here to try and get you to change your position. I'm simply observing the weaving of your tale.

Ah, "fairy" tale!

ROFL..OMG Rush, you are sooooo GD funny (slaps knee). You should really consider stand-up.

[rushmc 23]

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Like I said, I'm not here to try and get you to change your position. I'm simply observing the weaving of your tale.

Ah, "fairy" tale!

ROFL..OMG Rush, you are sooooo GD funny (slaps knee). You should really consider stand-up.

Well thank you
But my talent for humor pales in comparison to your's in this thread!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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we can kick your ass or we can tape you to a pole

you keep saying they admitted threatening

help me find those quotes - All I saw was an old fart who says "we gave him a few options" or something like that.

I'd like to find the specific words (article or video), not your inferences.

edit: post 332 - I'll take a look

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[futuredivot 0]

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Well, I decide I'm not then,

So, in this situation, you would have answered the door and said "Sir, I fucked up. I was drunk and not thinking. There is no excuse for my disrespect. I am ashamed of myself and would like to know how I can make it right."

Good for you.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[BillyVance 35]

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Embrace other viewpoints. Not everybody is a pussy.

Without sidestepping, are you calling me a pussy, yes or no?

When has Divot ever needed to be direct?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Belgian_Draft 0]

What is derogatory about letting the courts handle it? That was one option that was offered and is still open. The facts that the kid voluntarilly submitted to his chosen punishment and did not (HAS not) pressed any charges is a pretty good admission if you care to dismiss anything the vets have claimed he said. If I was in his shoes and had not burned their flag you can bet your ass I'd be letting the courts handle it.
You are still refusing to believe anything the vets have said and are still assuming the kid would tell a story that is completely different. Your entire argument is based upon baseless assumptions.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Those who are sworn to uphold and enforce the law, aka the police, have not filed any charges which they would be obligated to do, especially with the level of exposure this incident has garnered.

To use your term, you don't live in the real world. I have had cases refused to be written by high-level cops/detectives.

Here's a scenario from 20 years ago:

I was a civilian working at an Air Force Base in ND. I was dating a girl and there was a complicated love quadrangle that finally burst, it involved a set of twins of whom I had been with both and the BF of the other was pissed, volumes more info. Anyway, I was sitting in a Burger King on the AFB at lunch and the two nuts came in, he was pissed talking shit, standing above me as I sat eating. I ignored him and he then fired an uppercut and blew my face open. I then spun around in my chair, got up, grabbed the chair and launched it at him. He blocked it and it broke his arm. I grabbed another one and was gonna come over the top and be done with him, but I thought for a second and realized he had retreated and that was what I wanted, I put the 2nd chair down.

Cops come out, take the reports from the 30 guests in the restarant, arrest him and I get stitches. Go to talk to the prosecutor and she said she didn't want to prosecute, I said I would go to the AG, she then said she would put on some lame prosecution against him and really come after me. I said I wanted to see the witness statements she was huddled on top of. She said, "you will never see these."

WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, LOU BABY, TRY NOT TO GET IN THE WAY OF PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS. Just have another beer and post for fun. The alleged crime belongs to the state, they can take a report on it or refuse to, they can prosecute it or refuse to. I think the fact that the twins went to the prosecutor to lie their ass off had an impact as well as the fact that we were transient working temp in that area. However, if it weren't buttfuck ND, not unlike this BF town, I think there would be a prosecution.

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Neither of the parties involved in this incident have filed charges against one another for anything that we know or do not know about what transpired.

LOU, once again telling us how much you don't know. CITIZENS CANNOT FILE CHARGES, THEY MUST MAKE A POLICE REPORT AND HOPE THE PROSECUTOR FILES THEM, whether a direct file or by a Grand Jury via a True Bill, of course the latter is used for more serious felonies. But of course you knew that.

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Thats my world and based on my life experiences, I know it to be real as do others.

And I'm sure you have vast life experiences, just not in the legal arena.

AHHH, the plot gets thicker, this is really getting good dear readers. We have just seen more insight into the "why" of the misguided main characters penchant for finding fault with the system and his subsequent stance and insistence that an injustice occurred. His own demons blind him, yet he thinks his path is the righteous one. His kryptonite are the words "PROSECUTORIAL DISCRETION".One day, he will make an excellent prosecutor as he will prosecute every and all fractures of the letter of the law. (fade to black)

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[billvon 3,116]

>WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, LOU BABY . . .

Now THAT'S funny! You're living in the Internet REAL WORLD and Lou is living in the fantasy make-believe world of military airborne operations.

> Just have another beer and post for fun.

Uh, dude, why are you posting? I hope you are not under the delusion that posting here means anything. If you are doing it for any reason _other_ than your own amusement you will be sorely disappointed in the results of your efforts.

[Krip 2]

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>WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, LOU BABY . . .

Now THAT'S funny! You're living in the Internet REAL WORLD and Lou is living in the fantasy make-believe world of military airborne operations.

> Just have another beer and post for fun.

Uh, dude, why are you posting? I hope you are not under the delusion that posting here means anything. If you are doing it for any reason _other_ than your own amusement you will be sorely disappointed in the results of your efforts.

Hi BV

If lucky was posting for his own amusement I think he's pleased with the results of his efforts.

Folks spit the hook out.

One Jump Wonder