It's not healthcare...it's education

[airdvr 210]

I was thinking the other day that the problem lies not in providing HC to those who don't have it; the problem lies with the fact that we are becoming one nation of stupid fucks.

If you were going to come up with a list of organizations whose failures had done the most damage to the American economy in recent years, you’d probably have to start with the Wall Street firms and regulatory agencies that brought us the financial crisis. From there, you might move on to Wall Street’s fellow bailout recipients in Detroit, the once-Big Three.

But I would suggest that the list should also include a less obvious nominee: public universities.

At its top levels, the American system of higher education may be the best in the world. Yet in terms of its core mission — turning teenagers into educated college graduates — much of the system is simply failing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/business/economy/09leonhardt.html

Seems like providing HC is putting a band-aid on a broken arm. Why don't these folks have HC? I'd much rather see the money spent on higher education/career training in this country. I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

I know that there is far more to this than just the government throwing money at Universities. Wouldn't have the first clue on what needs to change. But I think it's a major contributor.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 3,121]

>I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

It is likely pretty strong. But you cannot force people to become educated if they don't want to, and you cannot educate stupid people. There will always be dropouts and stupid people no matter how much you spend on education.

But I agree that education should be a priority, because for those who can use it it is a VERY strong predictor of independence, contribution to society, higher income etc.

[wmw999 2,593]

If every single person in America is college educated, then it will no longer be much of a determinant in jobs and HC. Right now it's only a determinant because not everyone has one.

It's kind of like saying that everyone can be rich. No, if everyone has more money, then the ones at the bottom will still be poor.

After all, most poor people today would have been considered to have a very high quality of life 150 years ago.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

most poor people today would have been considered to have a very high quality of life 150 years ago.

perhaps we should tax some of their money away from them and send it back in time

for the children

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

Quote

I was thinking the other day that the problem lies not in providing HC to those who don't have it; the problem lies with the fact that we are becoming one nation of stupid fucks.

If you were going to come up with a list of organizations whose failures had done the most damage to the American economy in recent years, you’d probably have to start with the Wall Street firms and regulatory agencies that brought us the financial crisis. From there, you might move on to Wall Street’s fellow bailout recipients in Detroit, the once-Big Three.

But I would suggest that the list should also include a less obvious nominee: public universities.

At its top levels, the American system of higher education may be the best in the world. Yet in terms of its core mission — turning teenagers into educated college graduates — much of the system is simply failing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/business/economy/09leonhardt.html

Seems like providing HC is putting a band-aid on a broken arm. Why don't these folks have HC? I'd much rather see the money spent on higher education/career training in this country. I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

I know that there is far more to this than just the government throwing money at Universities. Wouldn't have the first clue on what needs to change. But I think it's a major contributor.

I think it would be interesting to look at factors that may indicated personal responcibility.

Good credit scores, bills paid, mortgage paid, legal record ect, and many other factors that i cant think of right now.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,156]

Quote

>I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

It is likely pretty strong. But you cannot force people to become educated if they don't want to, and you cannot educate stupid people. There will always be dropouts and stupid people no matter how much you spend on education.
.

My wife the math professor is currently teaching "freshman math for business majors". You would be appalled at the stuff in the curriculum (like adding fractions, solving linear equations in one variable...) and that about 1/5 of the class is flunking it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 210]

Quote

But you cannot force people to become educated if they don't want to, and you cannot educate stupid people. There will always be dropouts and stupid people no matter how much you spend on education.

Agreed. I guess my question then becomes should we as a country provide an opportunity to better oneself, or just provide ?

What responsibilities do you bear for not taking advantage of a system that provides the opportunity?

I didn't attend. I've kicked myself over and over for not taking advantage when I was most able to. My son just started U of Akron this fall. I've struggled financially all my life. Last summer I sat with my son and showed him my tax return for 2008. It wasn't an easy conversation to have. It's difficult to admit your failings to your offspring. But I think I made my point. He understands that it won't be handed to him. And he'll be in a much better position than his Dad if he keeps at it for another 4 years. And I'm satisfied that if he decides to disregard the advice he'll at least be making an informed decision.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 210]

Quote

Quote

>I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

It is likely pretty strong. But you cannot force people to become educated if they don't want to, and you cannot educate stupid people. There will always be dropouts and stupid people no matter how much you spend on education.
.

My wife the math professor is currently teaching "freshman math for business majors". You would be appalled at the stuff in the curriculum (like adding fractions, solving linear equations in one variable...) and that about 1/5 of the class is flunking it.

I don't doubt it John. I'm not certain what more can be done on a K - 12 level to prepare.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 2,156]

Quote

Quote

Quote

>I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

It is likely pretty strong. But you cannot force people to become educated if they don't want to, and you cannot educate stupid people. There will always be dropouts and stupid people no matter how much you spend on education.
.

My wife the math professor is currently teaching "freshman math for business majors". You would be appalled at the stuff in the curriculum (like adding fractions, solving linear equations in one variable...) and that about 1/5 of the class is flunking it.

I don't doubt it John. I'm not certain what more can be done on a K - 12 level to prepare.

In fairness, I should point out that the majority of the engineering and science majors are well prepared in math and a large fraction have AP credit in calculus.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,121]

>should we as a country provide an opportunity to better oneself, or just provide ?

I think we have to do a measure of both. Education can often turn a low-income-earner into a high-income-earner, and thus will save us money (even make us money) in the long term. Likewise, free prenatal checkups and vitamins will save us money in the long term.

But should everyone be covered for 100% of their education? I don't think so. It makes sense to educate everyone enough to the point where they can read and write and do basic math. Perhaps even a two year degree in electronics technology might make sense. But I don't think that a doctorate in medieval english literature should be free, although the government should certainly have a role in setting up schools where it's affordable. Likewise, should all medical procedures be 100% free? I don't think so. We should certainly take care of the people who show up in the ER with dangerous/life threatening diseases, but that heart transplant that will prolong his life a year? Maybe not. Even if that means you want to "kill Gramps."

[nerdgirl 0]

This is a topic that interests me greatly - personally & professionally. I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.

Quote

Last summer I sat with my son and showed him my tax return for 2008. It wasn't an easy conversation to have. It's difficult to admit your failings to your offspring. But I think I made my point. He understands that it won't be handed to him. And he'll be in a much better position than his Dad if he keeps at it for another 4 years. And I'm satisfied that if he decides to disregard the advice he'll at least be making an informed decision.

Think it's a great credit to you that you've recognized the economic advantages and set high goals for your son. That's a part of responsibility, which imo sometimes doesn't get as much attention as it deserves: our behavior (choices) and the messages it sends ... which sounds horribly self-righteous to me as re-read it ... but I'll put it out there.

To further your argument from the data-driven side: while there are exceptional exceptions (e.g., rock stars), a 2002 US Dept of Commerce study found that “over an adult's working life, high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; and people with a master's degree, $2.5 million. Persons with doctoral degrees earn an average of $3.4 million during their working life, while those with professional degrees do best at $4.4 million.” Those are averages.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Darius11 12]

The biggest issue with education is not money, but culture. There is a reason why immigrants kick ass in US schools. Again it goes back to what the culture values. In this culture money is the ultimate value, in many other culture education and knowledge is valued above all.

You can see this in many Asian cultures, including my own Persian culture. Good grades mean every thing.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

If every single person in America is college educated, then it will no longer be much of a determinant in jobs and HC. Right now it's only a determinant because not everyone has one.

It's kind of like saying that everyone can be rich. No, if everyone has more money, then the ones at the bottom will still be poor.

Not sure if this is part of your thinking ... perhaps I'm just reading into it what I want (in such case, feel free to tell me I'm wrong) ... should one have to have a college degree (& does it matter what type) to expect to be able to reach middle class?

Imo, college shouldn't necessarily be requisite. There are a lot of smart & responsible people who don't have degrees. (There are some smart & irresponsible ones on both sides as well.)

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kallend 2,156]

Quote

Quote

If every single person in America is college educated, then it will no longer be much of a determinant in jobs and HC. Right now it's only a determinant because not everyone has one.

It's kind of like saying that everyone can be rich. No, if everyone has more money, then the ones at the bottom will still be poor.

Not sure if this is part of your thinking ... perhaps I'm just reading into it what I want (in such case, feel free to tell me I'm wrong) ... should one have to have a college degree (& does it matter what type) to expect to be able to reach middle class?



/Marg

IF you define "middle class" solely in terms of money, then obviously a college degree is not a requirement.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

At its top levels, the American system of higher education may be the best in the world. Yet in terms of its core mission — turning teenagers into educated college graduates — much of the system is simply failing.

What do mean that the prof. main goal isn't supposed to be to get the kids to believe in there left leaning ways?

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

My wife the math professor is currently teaching "freshman math for business majors". You would be appalled at the stuff in the curriculum (like adding fractions, solving linear equations in one variable...) and that about 1/5 of the class is flunking it.

Really?

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[airdvr 210]

Quote

[wmw999 2,593]

Quote

Imo, college shouldn't necessarily be requisite. There are a lot of smart & responsible people who don't have degrees.

I agree completely. I just inferred from the original post that if a college education were to be provided to everyone, then everyone would be more likely to have healthcare, because currently college-educated people are more likely to have healthcare.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ion01 2]

Quote

>I'd like to see the correlation between education and whether you have HC.

It is likely pretty strong. But you cannot force people to become educated if they don't want to, and you cannot educate stupid people. There will always be dropouts and stupid people no matter how much you spend on education.

But I agree that education should be a priority, because for those who can use it it is a VERY strong predictor of independence, contribution to society, higher income etc.

But you can keep everyone uneducated so that everyone is equal........

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

But I agree that education should be a priority, because for those who can use it it is a VERY strong predictor of independence, contribution to society, higher income etc.

IMO, our education system is failing to produce citizens who can handle the responsibility of living in a republic who democratically elects their politicians. As Ben Franklin said, "I've given you a republic, hope you can keep it".

We are all engines of karma

[DanG 1]

Quote

perhaps we should tax some of their money away from them and send it back in time

for the children

Don't worry, we're already doing that. It's called Social Security.

- Dan G

[billvon 3,121]

>But you can keep everyone uneducated so that everyone is equal........

True - in many ways a conservative's dream world. No ivory tower intellectual elitist types.

[billvon 3,121]

>IMO, our education system is failing to produce citizens who can handle the
>responsibility of living in a republic who democratically elects their politicians.

Well, democracy is self-adjusting to that. If we have a nation of dolts, we will have elected leaders who are dolts. In a representative democracy, that's considered a success.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Well, democracy is self-adjusting to that. If we have a nation of dolts, we will have elected leaders who are dolts. In a representative democracy, that's considered a success.

Well said, and very depressing.

We are all engines of karma

[airdvr 210]

Quote

>But you can keep everyone uneducated so that everyone is equal........

True - in many ways a conservative's dream world. No ivory tower intellectual elitist types.

And I was so hoping this wouldn't become a football

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne