Yet another reason to tax the rich more

[wmw999 2,555]

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As for the baseline, you set that and demand gov spending if nec meets that

A baseline only works if some study goes into setting it. An arbitrarily-set baseline turns into a joke -- anyone ever had a completely schedule imposed on a project from above?

We can say that a Cadillac in every garage is the baseline. But that doesn't make it so.

Yes, a baseline is defined, but it has to be based in reality, especially if one is expecting someone to pay for it.

Many political arguments really are just talking about where the baseline should be (duh). But to declare one group's definition to be truth doesn't make it so.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Lucky... 0]

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Yes. Another word for that is 'capitalism.'

Classism - Capitalism; same thing - I agree.

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You think that a kid that doesn't go to the hospital with a broken hand, and has it heal a bit crooked, is obscene? Well, then once again, we will have to agree to disagree.

Right, if we were not an OBSCENE nation there would be a process in place where at any time he could get that fixed.

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The more I discuss this with you the more I get the feeling you have no idea what the rest of the world is like.

So now on to ad hominem? I was in the military, went overseas. But I see your arguments circle around: Africa and parts of Asia suck, therefore we're good. (shhh, ignore Scandinavia, parts of W Europe). Claiming to beat your wife once a month isn't defensable by saying African husbands beat theirs daily.

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If you ever get the chance, travel a bit, and see what other people really have to go through. Your view of what's obscene will change a bit, I think.

I've traveled a fair amount, esp young. Again, not a defense to carp on your people and then say others have it worse.

[StreetScooby 5]

The more I read your input here, the more I see your sigline...

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I'm a nappy-headed ho...

We are all engines of karma

[Ron 10]

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Yep. Trouble is, every political candidate in my lifetime has promised to do that. Surprising that there's any waste left, isn't it.

So hold them accountable. Fix the real problem, not just slap a made up solution on it.

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But the evidence of history shows that cutting tax rates REDUCES real (inflation adjusted) revenues.

Did I say, "cut taxes, or did I say, "stimulate growth"?

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No argument there. The issue is, how to get THAT past the tax lawyers' lobby, well funded as it is by "the rich".

The same way you plan on getting tax hikes past "the rich".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lucky... 0]

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Yes, it is going nowhere, but only due to the fact you refuse to admit it already exists.

What exists, a baseline? Sure, it exists, a baseline of zero coverage other than ER care and a bill that will keep you in the poor house.

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So you think taxation should be so high as to prevent people from spending? Hate to break it to you, but consumer spending counts for 70% of GDP.

That's why it could be income tax, capital gains tax (applies to sellers) and many other taxes. Let's not oversimplify the argument to sales tax. And the rich are so sick rich that it will just be an irritant, it won't diussuade spending; did it in the CLinton era?

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And I understand that liberals have to resort to personal attacks when they are proven wrong.... Just like that one.

Face it... You made a statement that was in no way true.... Just accept it and move along.

Conservative thinking is often absolute, I didn't make absolute statements but you interpreted it that way; that's very typical.

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And I bet you still spend money on "fun" things... Again, it is all about priorities. You want me to pay the boring stuff you want so you can spend your money on the cool things.

Just like the packer at the DZ that was bitching about needing to see a Dr, but he "could not afford it". But he managed to have money to jump, he had money to buy a new canopy, he had money to take SCUBA lessons........ect.

I don't really, actually I'm selling fun things off. Yes, I could get ins and lie about my shoulder.

Are you never going to draw teh connecction between uni-care and out of your pocket? I guess not.

[Ion01 2]

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Ever heard of the depression of 1920? Probably not..... did you know the crash then was worse than the one that resulted in the "great depression".

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/connections_n2/great_depression.html

Sure, didn't last long, but it was steep and short. No way to compare it to the GD IMO. Your own cite states: Never heard of it? That's not surprising - it didn't last long. The 20's were roaring, not greatly depressing.

I think it was lesssignificant than the GD, esp since it was onset by WWI ending, a good thing, versus the GD.

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Also, the reality is that such actions as you are advocating don't raise the "baseline" they bring everything down to a lower level.

Which actions; be specific.

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Look at the countries that do what you advocate or have in the past. They are failures!

More ambiguity? Are you affraid to specify which things I say, which countries, how they failed, etc? Come on, cite my ideas, specific countries that tried it when and the outcome.

As for the baseline, you set that and demand gov spending if nec meets that, you're working this backwards saying the cuts, etc won't meet the baseline; diff deal.

Wow! You didn't read the article at all did you? Just ignore the facts......

[Lucky... 0]

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A baseline only works if some study goes into setting it. An arbitrarily-set baseline turns into a joke -- anyone ever had a completely schedule imposed on a project from above?

Thankfully you know a baseline isn't a flat bottom measure, but a studied measure of basic need in this case to determine what is reasonable.

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We can say that a Cadillac in every garage is the baseline. But that doesn't make it so.

True we could, and I agree that that isn't reasonable. When I say baseline, I mean a reasonable measure of what a person should receive to ensure basic HC needs. I defined baseline and said Spruce was a baseline for wood on acft. It's one of teh best, but not the best, so we know what baseline means, not everyone does.

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Yes, a baseline is defined, but it has to be based in reality, especially if one is expecting someone to pay for it.

Yes, we all pay for it indirectly thru taxes, but again, very indirectly. And I've never said anything but reasonable.

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Many political arguments really are just talking about where the baseline should be (duh). But to declare one group's definition to be truth doesn't make it so.

It's like in the law, the Reasonale Man Standard; what would a reasonable person do? What would be reasonable care for all people. And then if you want more you can buy it.

[Lucky... 0]

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The more I read your input here, the more I see your sigline...

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I'm a nappy-headed ho...

Thx for your valuable contribution to this issue.

[Lucky... 0]

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Ever heard of the depression of 1920? Probably not..... did you know the crash then was worse than the one that resulted in the "great depression".

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/connections_n2/great_depression.html

Sure, didn't last long, but it was steep and short. No way to compare it to the GD IMO. Your own cite states: Never heard of it? That's not surprising - it didn't last long. The 20's were roaring, not greatly depressing.

I think it was lesssignificant than the GD, esp since it was onset by WWI ending, a good thing, versus the GD.

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Also, the reality is that such actions as you are advocating don't raise the "baseline" they bring everything down to a lower level.

Which actions; be specific.

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Look at the countries that do what you advocate or have in the past. They are failures!

More ambiguity? Are you affraid to specify which things I say, which countries, how they failed, etc? Come on, cite my ideas, specific countries that tried it when and the outcome.

As for the baseline, you set that and demand gov spending if nec meets that, you're working this backwards saying the cuts, etc won't meet the baseline; diff deal.

Wow! You didn't read the article at all did you? Just ignore the facts......

I did, I'm asking you what your point is. You made a lot of generalizations, which assertions, which countries? Make a point, don't rely on the author; if I wanted a debate with them I would write them.

I WILL NEVER GET A PERSON TO ESTABLISH A MAJOR FED TAX CUT THAT TURNED OUT WELL.

[kelpdiver 2]

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We have that. Government housing, food stamps, laws preventing being turned away at hospitals, unemployment benefits, etc. The truth is you don't want a safety net. You want the baseline raised no matter what the cost.

Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced.

Have you EVER been to a 3rd world country? You have no idea what the baseline is. Not a clue.

And you don't understand the definition of BASELINE. Baseline means a standard. For example, Spruce is a standard or baseline by which to measure other woods in acft. Spruce isn;t the best, just a high standard. I'm not saying HC s/b the high, we just need to draw a line by which measure what every American is guaranteed. 3rd world countries have bare-bottom benefits or none at all, that's not the same as baseline.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baseline

4. a basic standard or level; guideline: to establish a baseline for future studies.

5. a specific value or values that can serve as a comparison or control.

To repeat - you have no clue what goes on in the world if you think the US baseline for health care or standard of living is anything like the 3rd world. The poor here are the middle class there on those standards. Our's have cell phones and cable TV. Their's are happy when they have 4 walls and a roof.

And really, that's the problem. The poor in America want everything that the more successful have, and they want us to pay for it.

[Ron 10]

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What exists, a baseline? Sure, it exists, a baseline of zero coverage other than ER care and a bill that will keep you in the poor house.

If you are "in the poor house" you are already eligible for medicaid.

So at least you finally admit that there *IS* HC in the US even if you are broke.

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That's why it could be income tax, capital gains tax (applies to sellers) and many other taxes. Let's not oversimplify the argument to sales tax.

Who said anything about sales tax????? I sure didn't.

I DID say that consumer spending is 70% of GDP. You have said you want to tax people to take away their ability to spend till it fits YOUR acceptable level.

Never mind that you would actually be killing the economy in the process.

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So now on to ad hominem?

Really????? You are going to accuse OTHERS of that? What was this from you then:

but I understand that conservative interpretation works like binary code; 1 or 0. Yes or no. All or nothing.

Conservative thinking is often absolute

Before you get all upset about someone doing something to you.... You might want to make sure you are not doing the EXACT same thing.

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I don't really, actually I'm selling fun things off. Yes, I could get ins and lie about my shoulder.

Good. Just make sure to sell YOUR fun things and not mine. You seem to really want someone else to pay for your wants/needs.

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Are you never going to draw teh [sic] connecction [sic] between uni-care and out of your pocket? I guess not.

YOU want something.... YOU need to be willing to pay for it... With YOUR money.

My GF bought private HC when she was unemployed. It was more important than making a few extra jumps, or going shopping.

Again you want everything you want... but you want anyone but you to pay for it.

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When I say baseline, I mean a reasonable measure of what a person should receive to ensure basic HC needs.

No, your posts indicate you want a Cadillac paid for by someone else.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,085]

> But I see your arguments circle around: Africa and parts of Asia suck,
>therefore we're good.

Nope, never said that.

>Claiming to beat your wife once a month isn't defensable by saying
>African husbands beat theirs daily.

Right. But if you claim that refusing to buy your wife jewelry is just like beating her, expect no one to take you seriously. (But both are obscene!)

[rehmwa 2]

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But I concede, the US is a better country than Africa.

let's keep that racism out of the commentary here - it's about health care, not false elitism

and, for that matter it would be - the US is a better continent than Africa

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

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Who said anything about sales tax????? I sure didn't.

I DID say that consumer spending is 70% of GDP. You have said you want to tax people to take away their ability to spend till it fits YOUR acceptable level.

Never mind that you would actually be killing the economy in the process.

I see the problem here and it's actually kind of funny... Here's the chain of posts if you put them back in context...

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The top 10% already pay 68%. The bottom 50% only pay 3%.

I've posted that data several times, I then post:

THE CLASSES ARE SPEADING EVEN MORE, SO APPARENTLY THE TAX RATES ARE TOO LENIENT.

So you think taxation should be so high as to prevent people from spending? Hate to break it to you, but consumer spending counts for 70% of GDP.

So you want to tax people so they stop spending and kill the LARGEST driver of the economy?

That's why it could be income tax, capital gains tax (applies to sellers) and many other taxes. Let's not oversimplify the argument to sales tax. And the rich are so sick rich that it will just be an irritant, it won't diussuade spending; did it in the CLinton era?

Lucky... was concerned about the classes "SPEADING" which Ron interpreted to mean "spending" and clearly replied as such. Lucky... is apparently paying so little attention to what anyone is writing in this thread that he just went on arguing to defend a point he didn't even know he was trying to make.

It reminds me of the monty python sketch

I came here for a good argument.
No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
An argument isn't just contradiction.
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't.

[Lucky... 0]

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We have that. Government housing, food stamps, laws preventing being turned away at hospitals, unemployment benefits, etc. The truth is you don't want a safety net. You want the baseline raised no matter what the cost.

Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced.

Have you EVER been to a 3rd world country? You have no idea what the baseline is. Not a clue.

And you don't understand the definition of BASELINE. Baseline means a standard. For example, Spruce is a standard or baseline by which to measure other woods in acft. Spruce isn;t the best, just a high standard. I'm not saying HC s/b the high, we just need to draw a line by which measure what every American is guaranteed. 3rd world countries have bare-bottom benefits or none at all, that's not the same as baseline.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baseline

4. a basic standard or level; guideline: to establish a baseline for future studies.

5. a specific value or values that can serve as a comparison or control.

To repeat - you have no clue what goes on in the world if you think the US baseline for health care or standard of living is anything like the 3rd world. The poor here are the middle class there on those standards. Our's have cell phones and cable TV. Their's are happy when they have 4 walls and a roof.

And really, that's the problem. The poor in America want everything that the more successful have, and they want us to pay for it.

\

Then I'll repeat, you don't know what a baseline is. It can be from a low standard to a high standard.

So let's compare the US to toilets of the world so we can ignore real countries like Scandinavian countries, so theat we don't look as bad. Quit finding the ugliest shithole with which to make teh US look good, it really has an opposite effect.

[Lucky... 0]

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If you are "in the poor house" you are already eligible for medicaid.

So at least you finally admit that there *IS* HC in the US even if you are broke.

I'm not, I have a great career that is sporadic.

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Who said anything about sales tax????? I sure didn't.

You wrote about people not buying if taxes were too high.

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I DID say that consumer spending is 70% of GDP. You have said you want to tax people to take away their ability to spend till it fits YOUR acceptable level.

No I didn't , I stated I want to raise taxes, esp on the rich, the last part is yours.

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Never mind that you would actually be killing the economy in the process.

As much as I love your editorial, the last chunk of history dosagrees. Show me a time in the last several decades where federal taxes were raised and the economy suffered.

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Really????? You are going to accuse OTHERS of that? What was this from you then:

but I understand that conservative interpretation works like binary code; 1 or 0. Yes or no. All or nothing.

Conservative thinking is often absolute

Before you get all upset about someone doing something to you.... You might want to make sure you are not doing the EXACT same thing.

Generalizing that conservatives often have an all or nothing approach is not an ad hominem, it's not a character attck in leiu of a substantive argument.

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Good. Just make sure to sell YOUR fun things and not mine. You seem to really want someone else to pay for your wants/needs.

There is no way for you to pay for my anything. You are still unable to create a link between taxation and spending.

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YOU want something.... YOU need to be willing to pay for it... With YOUR money.

Wow, that was brilliance. How did you come up with that? I asked for you to make the connection between uni-care and your wallet and you give me this disseratation. Wow, I won't be able to digest that at once.

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No, your posts indicate you want a Cadillac paid for by someone else.

That's your special interpretation. If you became disabled, you would scream the loudest.

[Lucky... 0]

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Nope, never said that.

Well then let's let our standards stand alone and quit bringing in the toilets of the world to make us look good. This is like comparing a mediocre football team to the Lion's to make your mediocre team look great.

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Right. But if you claim that refusing to buy your wife jewelry is just like beating her, expect no one to take you seriously. (But both are obscene!)

There again, trying to up the stanadard by bringing in the worst of the worst. Average western countries provide HC, let's adjudge the US by that standard.

[Lucky... 0]

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But I concede, the US is a better country than Africa.

let's keep that racism out of the commentary here - it's about health care, not false elitism

and, for that matter it would be - the US is a better continent than Africa

Just as Africa is a continent, the US isn't.

[Lucky... 0]

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Who said anything about sales tax????? I sure didn't.

I DID say that consumer spending is 70% of GDP. You have said you want to tax people to take away their ability to spend till it fits YOUR acceptable level.

Never mind that you would actually be killing the economy in the process.

I see the problem here and it's actually kind of funny... Here's the chain of posts if you put them back in context...

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Quote

Quote

Quote

The top 10% already pay 68%. The bottom 50% only pay 3%.

I've posted that data several times, I then post:

THE CLASSES ARE SPEADING EVEN MORE, SO APPARENTLY THE TAX RATES ARE TOO LENIENT.

So you think taxation should be so high as to prevent people from spending? Hate to break it to you, but consumer spending counts for 70% of GDP.

So you want to tax people so they stop spending and kill the LARGEST driver of the economy?

That's why it could be income tax, capital gains tax (applies to sellers) and many other taxes. Let's not oversimplify the argument to sales tax. And the rich are so sick rich that it will just be an irritant, it won't diussuade spending; did it in the CLinton era?

Lucky... was concerned about the classes "SPEADING" which Ron interpreted to mean "spending" and clearly replied as such. Lucky... is apparently paying so little attention to what anyone is writing in this thread that he just went on arguing to defend a point he didn't even know he was trying to make.

It reminds me of the monty python sketch

I came here for a good argument.
No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
An argument isn't just contradiction.
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't.

Are we so desperate that we're down to typos? Actually I don't think Ron interpreted that to mean spending.

What people are doing is saying that HC will raise taxes, yet no one has shown me how. No one has shown me how this will cost them a dime either.

And the best point made by others, the US is great as compared to Africa, parts of Asia and other lovely places. No argument, now let's compare us to like countries.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Well then let's let our standards stand alone and quit bringing in the toilets of the world to make us look good. This is like comparing a mediocre football team to the Lion's to make your mediocre team look great.

You brought up the third world country thing. Then, true to form, you quickly got upset when people called the BS. Now you only want to use countries with baselines you see as higher than our as examples. Define ad hominem.

It's like you're complaining because our team is the worst in the league... except for the lions, the titans, the bengals, the jaguars, the chiefs, the bears, the dolphins, or the packers. You won't be happy until our baseline is the Colts, at the expense of the Patriots.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Are we so desperate that we're down to typos?

You were there on page 3, dude. Right after you switched from 'Tax the rich just to bring them down' to healthcare.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[billvon 3,085]

> and quit bringing in the toilets of the world to make us look good.

I think it's sad that you would describe another nation as a "toilet" just because you don't like their healthcare system. If you ever get a chance to meet some of the people there I think you will change your mind.

>There again, trying to up the stanadard by bringing in the worst
>of the worst.

Dude, you're the one saying that having a sore hand and/or a toothache is "obscene."

[kelpdiver 2]

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You brought up the third world country thing. Then, true to form, you quickly got upset when people called the BS. Now you only want to use countries with baselines you see as higher than our as examples. Define ad hominem.

Yep. He stuck his foot in deep on that one, and is scrambling for cover.

[Lucky... 0]

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You're the one who originally compared our system to third world countries.

So sorry, it was Bill in post #36 he wrote: No, it's not. A system where someone will always take care of you is not obscene. You may find it so; that's fine. If you ever get to visit sub-Saharan Africa you may change your mind.

So if you can't get your facts straight, just move along.

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Standard for you, when someone brought up actual 3rd world countries you get upset.

Oh, so first I compared the US system to 3rd world countries and now someone else brought it up? You're making your typical sense. And I don't get upset, I like it as it really brings home how low the US system is that we have to go to the worst to flatter the US system.

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When you said 3rd world, you actually meant any country with a baseline higher than ours.

I stated: Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced.

In response to you saying: We have that. Government housing, food stamps, laws preventing being turned away at hospitals, unemployment benefits, etc. The truth is you don't want a safety net. You want the baseline raised no matter what the cost.

That was way after Bill brought it in. So instead of focusing onthis unimportant issue of who wrote it forst, even tho Bill did, let's focus on the issue of our vast resource and obscene exclusive distribution.

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It's like you're complaining because our team is the worst in the league... except for the lions, the titans, the bengals, the jaguars, the chiefs, the bears, the dolphins, or the packers. You won't be happy until our baseline is the Colts, at the expense of the Patriots.

Awww, how special, calling the real Americans the Patriots. Another funny conservative tactic. As one of the richest countries in the world, we s/b waaaay up there in HC, so even if we're in the middle that's no good. But we are 37th due to the cost and unavailability/exclusivity.

So if you want to brag our system as great, go for it; we have the technology, just our corporate greed gets in the way.

[Lucky... 0]

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I think it's sad that you would describe another nation as a "toilet" just because you don't like their healthcare system.

How do you arrive at that understanding? I think most 3rd world countries are toilets due to them being corrupt, exclusive, classist....wait, I'm describing the US.

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If you ever get a chance to meet some of the people there I think you will change your mind.

You act as if I'm a young kid. I'm probably your age and I was in and out of the military after going around part of the world by age 21. I think yiour ad hominem of me being naive is GROSSLY incorrerct.

Also, the govs of these countries are toilets, not tejh people.

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Dude, you're the one saying that having a sore hand and/or a toothache is "obscene."

No I'm not, remember the examples given? They were far more extreme than that. People with pre-existings that cannot get coverage, they have to wait until they are sick to be seen, etc....then throw in unemployment and you have obscene.

I recall in a recent thread you wrote to let the people choose their coverage to incl gov option, now it seems you're saying down with gov option. Are you just having fun here?